WC build, help

[Firestrider]

So I finally decided I'm going water cooling.

My main goal to keep my temperatures as close to ambient as possible at load, and keep the noise level as quiet as possible. I only really overclock when I need that extra performance, but so far I haven't needed to.

My budget is $225-250 for all the WC essentials including GPU block. I want to be as cost effective as possible since my budget is kind of low, but should be doable for WC.

What do you recommend for a build list?

Only restrictions is I would like to have a 4x7" radiator to fit nicely on the back of the case, and possibly a 4 1/2" height or less pump.

I know there's a sticky that shows recommended water cooling parts but I don't know how updated and relavent it is.

[Conumdrum]

It's close to $80 for the GPU, $65 for the CPU, $55 for the rad, $65 for the pump. Add $60-80 more for fans, hose, clamps, barbs. For a basic CPU/GPU loop. Might be able to drop it by $100 with used stuff.

We kinda use standard radiators measured by the fan size. 120x2, 120x3 etc. Some rads are a bit longer/fatter/thicker than others. Many rad makers post info on the rad exact sizes if your willing to do the legwork.

Size of the pump depends on what pump you choose depending on your budget and needs. Don't forget to add the lenght of the connections and how the tube is routed, it is stiff.

You can google your case for what has been done or dig deep here learning what is a good fit for your case.

Anyway, here is a bunch of links I post to help ya understand. Take your time, it ain't done in a day, fortnight, or week to figure it out.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/index.php? Not a noob site, but great stickies
http://www.ocforums.com/ My fav, good peeps, know their stuff, less hardcore
http://www.skinneelabs.com/MartinsLiquidLab/
http://www.over-clock.com/ivb/index.php?showtopic=20277 A GREAT Europe site
http://www.overclock.net/water-cooling/
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.effizienzgurus.de%2Fm ain%2Findex.php%3Fcontent%3Darticle%26action%3Dvie w_spec_article%26article_id%3D222&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Info on rad testing
http://skinneelabs.com/

http://www.dangerden.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
http://www.petrastechshop.com/
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/

[Firestrider]

Thanks for your help. I'm really looking for compatibility with sockets and cards also since I plan on keeping this for 5+ years.

This is what I picked out so far:

Pump: MCP655-B $65.95 1/2" barb connection
GPU Block: MCW60 $46.95 1/2" barbs included
GPU Ramsinks: ?
CPU Block: Apogee GT $49.95 1/2" barbs included
Radiator: MCR220 "QP" $44.95 or Black Ice Micro II $39.99 comes with 1/2" fittings
Tubing: Possibly Masterkleer 1/2" ID 10ft $8.50
Clamps: 10x Stainless Steel Worm-Drive Hose Clamp $6.00
Fans: If BIM, already have 2x 80mm Low CFM.

BIMII: 82mm wide x 193mm tall x 46mm thick
MCR220: 125mm wide x 301mm tall x 30mm thick

The problem is if I get the MCR220 I will have to put it on the bottom of the case (I don't know how effective this will be) and possibly move the pump the the top where the optical drive bays are since the bottom would be a tight squeeze. If I get the BIMII I can just use it on the back of my case.

What is the maintenance on watercooling? How often will I need to drain the system and supplement additives?

[Firestrider]

Any idea how I can set it up? Case looks like this: http://www.chieftecusa.com/dragon.htm

Trying to make the MCR220 radiator and MCP655-B pump fit logically :)

[gomerpile]

jeez can I ask you why you want to go water

[Firestrider]

jeez can I ask you why you want to go water

To lower temps and noise. I've already hit the cap on my processor at 55*C and my graphics card can get up to 80*C.

I don't think more investment in air cooling is worth it (maybe I'm wrong)

[gomerpile]

My experience is the same thing for quite a few yearz so I'm not much helpful but, I can say the inconvenience of water is a nuisance if its not a stationary system. Last cooling the water down is another thing, if you just go allcheapo way the cooling gain is verylittle because the water temp will eventually heatup and you will be in the same vote your in now. a bunch of fans keeping the water cool.

[PropNut]

I have two of the BlackIce Micro II's, I doubt one would keep temps at ambient for you...
Click on the link in my sig to see them in my setup.

[Firestrider]

I have two of the BlackIce Micro II's, I doubt one would keep temps at ambient for you...
Click on the link in my sig to see them in my setup.

Thanks.

Is it plausible to use the MCR220 radiator at the bottom of the case or does it need room to breathe on both sides?

[PropNut]

It would need air to move in one side and out the other (pulled by fans)

The cap on your cpu is 55c?! That seems awefully low. Or is that the highest you want it to go with normal load?

[Conumdrum]

Thanks.

Is it plausible to use the MCR220 radiator at the bottom of the case or does it need room to breathe on both sides?


You HAVE to have fans with no obstructions pulling air through the rad. If it's in the case you'll have to pull cool outside room air through the rad with fans. The pump really needs to be toward the bottom of the case below your fill point.

Didn't see a res or Tline mentioned in your parts.

[Firestrider]

You HAVE to have fans with no obstructions pulling air through the rad. If it's in the case you'll have to pull cool outside room air through the rad with fans. The pump really needs to be toward the bottom of the case below your fill point.

Didn't see a res or Tline mentioned in your parts.

If that's the case then I will have to use the Black Ice Micro II because I can't figure out another way without serious modding.

I'll probably be using a T-line.


It would need air to move in one side and out the other (pulled by fans)

The cap on your cpu is 55c?! That seems awefully low. Or is that the highest you want it to go with normal load?


The maximum temperature is 70*C, but the processor will start erroring at 55*C

[gomerpile]

That is how mine is the fan pulling air through the rad, the benefits of this, keep the mainboard cool, like the coils, transformers and stuff and, in my opinion that is =ly as important when OCing 24/7
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6002/photo10015gn.jpg
@propnut love your case

[Conumdrum]

The BI Micro is NOT big enough, it will need screaming fans and not even begin to keep it cool.

Seriously, you need to read and learn first, your not getting anywhere. You HAVE to have at least a 120x2 sized rad no matter what, more like a 120x3 size. And if you want quiet, don't get ANY Black Ice series of rads. They have high FPI and need strong (loud) fans to pull air through those rads.

Thermochill, Feser, XSPC are your best choices, then the MCR series.

Gomer, you need a shroud baddd...

[Firestrider]

The BI Micro is NOT big enough, it will need screaming fans and not even begin to keep it cool.

Seriously, you need to read and learn first, your not getting anywhere. You HAVE to have at least a 120x2 sized rad no matter what, more like a 120x3 size. And if you want quiet, don't get ANY Black Ice series of rads. They have high FPI and need strong (loud) fans to pull air through those rads.

Thermochill, Feser, XSPC are your best choices, then the MCR series.

Gomer, you need a shroud baddd...

I'm sorry but I see no where that you said I NEED at least a 120x2 radiator... and with a 120x2 I have no where to put it if it can't be inside my case without serious modding...

Unless you have any ideas?

Again I thank you for your help, and I'm still learning.

[Conumdrum]

I didn't say that, I thought you had figured that out.

Spend a few days with that massive amount of links I sent ya. You'll have a lot better understanding of what to do.

There are many ways to mount a rad, you'll see it in many rigs in the pics in the links I posted.

[Spawn-Inc]

also assuming this build is for the rig in your sig the apogee GT is a old block not good for quads.

the Dtek V2 or Swiftech Apogee GTZ will work nicely.

you can mount the rad off the back of your case via a swiftech rad box (http://www.petrastechshop.com/swstmcrrebl.html) OR fab some brackets up.

[jr1]

+10 forthe reading up on stuff and learn from that

[PropNut]

Even with the best 2@120x2 rads I really doubt you could maintain ambient temperature...but I am not expert and this has been argued many times before. Most people are happy to maintain a safe operating temp while overclocked (mine stays around 42c with my dinky micro II's and fans that are prettier than they are efficient).

@Gomer, thanks

[Firestrider]

Spawn-Inc, that will work with the 80mm fittings on the back of my case?

A guy here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3499804&postcount=214 used his radiator on the bottom of the case with an open side; not very efficient?

[muddocktor]

Yeah, the radbox will work with fan sizes from 80-120 mm. I have radboxes mounted on 2 different cases that have 80 mm exhaust fans on them. One is a Coolermaster Praetorian and the other is an old Antec SX600 series.

[Firestrider]

Here's my updated list, anything else I need or should be changed: I'm not so sure on the tubing but the Masterkleer is out of stock and everything else is too expensive.

[Firestrider]

This is what I was thinking instead of having the radiator outside the case (see pic below). I know it won't be ideal but I would rather have it this way. I will have 3x 80mm fans intake and 2x 120mm fans exhaust. There is small vents in front of my case. I measured and have about 13" height to fit the radiator after removing the drive bays.


Still have some questions:
1. Would I be able to add peltiers in the future to these blocks?
2. Can you link me to something to determine how my "loop" should go?
3. I know you will probably say no, but will this be able to handle a 250W load?

[Firestrider]

Well after using the flowrate estimator, power calculator and graphs my system would be about the same as the solid orange line here at 1.38 GPM: http://www.thermochill.com/PATesting/PA1202HeatdissVSFlowrateGPM.jpg so it should be able to handle at least 300W given the PA120.2 is better.

[gomerpile]

This is what I was thinking instead of having the radiator outside the case (see pic below). I know it won't be ideal but I would rather have it this way. I will have 3x 80mm fans intake and 2x 120mm fans exhaust. There is small vents in front of my case. I measured and have about 13" height to fit the radiator after removing the drive bays.


Still have some questions:
1. Would I be able to add peltiers in the future to these blocks?
2. Can you link me to something to determine how my "loop" should go?
3. I know you will probably say no, but will this be able to handle a 250W load?your air flow is not right in that pic your pushing warm air from the psu. I got a pic of my second computer. example of the PUS
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7089/p2200018he3.jpg
yes thats red green's special holding the psu on
I;'d recommand moving the psu out of the case for cooler case temp's
Edit dont laugh its just a kid's computer he'll have to work to make it better
Edit: Dont excluse coolermasters aerogate it has done me well since 2004 it's well exceeded the 100000 hours, the key to waterpumbs is keep them running 24/7 even if you need to get some cheap 12v power pak and modify the connectors to hook it up. In my case I got a 200watt psu to run the water pump and the digital monitoring display. Avoid running the water pump from the computers power

[Conumdrum]

Question. Your going to take air from the fans in the back of the case, let the air heat up and then get sucked out of the case? 99% of us would have the cool air go in the front into the rad and be pulled out of the case in the back. Unless I'm missing something here. I think I understand the airflow arrows.

[Firestrider]

Question. Your going to take air from the fans in the back of the case, let the air heat up and then get sucked out of the case? 99% of us would have the cool air go in the front into the rad and be pulled out of the case in the back. Unless I'm missing something here. I think I understand the airflow arrows.

Yeah I guess I could just change the orientation of the fans, pushing air against the radiator works better than pulling, right?. I just want to keep everything in the case if I can.

Can you check my list to see if I have anything wrong or if I need to change something? In regards mostly to the tubing, fitting, and reservoir. I'll add some PT Nuke also.

[Conumdrum]

Actually, the reason, and the #2 rule if possible, always have the coolest air to the rad. The air barely heats up and the inside of the case really won't see any diff.

I hope you have a big enough rad, but since your not a big overclocker you should be fine.

Lastly, don't hard mount the rad till the loop is fully bled and all done. You might have a really hard time filling/bleeding the rad if you can't get to the res fill hole on it.

If you going just Distilled water, get the PHN Nuke instead, it's made just for distilled. You can read about both PT and PHN on Petras site.

Don't forget heatsinks for the Vram and mosfets on the GPU since your only cooling the GPU chip.

[Big Mike]

also assuming this build is for the rig in your sig the apogee GT is a old block not good for quads.

the Dtek V2 or Swiftech Apogee GTZ will work nicely.

you can mount the rad off the back of your case via a swiftech rad box (http://www.petrastechshop.com/swstmcrrebl.html) OR fab some brackets up.

My quad that rarely breaks 60C and runs 3850 mhz begs to differ, it seems more than satisfied with its Apogee GT.

[Spawn-Inc]

Spawn-Inc, that will work with the 80mm fittings on the back of my case?

A guy here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3499804&postcount=214 used his radiator on the bottom of the case with an open side; not very efficient?

unless there is holes cut out on the bottom AND he plans to put some feet on that case he is getting crap cooling from that... not to mention he started off with a bad rad.

and yes the radbox as mudd said can support 80mm fans.

My quad that rarely breaks 60C and runs 3850 mhz begs to differ, it seems more than satisfied with its Apogee GT.

and if you get a Dtek or GTZ your will see a nice drop in temps, 5C or more me thinks.

[Firestrider]

Can anyone link to a guide for leak testing, bleeding and filling?

Also can VRAM sinks be reused or are they pretty much permanent?

I'm still not 100% sure on how the fans should be set up. I can either push or pull air on the radiator into the case or out of the case in the front with the 2x120mm fans, and then I have 3x80mm fans (one on side, two on back) as intake or exhaust.

There is tradeoffs with each method as I will either be dumbing hot air into the case or taking warm air as intake to the radiator.

[Conumdrum]

The air into the case is barely warmed, the case parts won't see the diff. On the other hand, your rad and temps will. Cool air to the rad.

Here is a tidbit.

Sure can, here is the link.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=312743

[rainless]

Can anyone link to a guide for leak testing, bleeding and filling?

Also can VRAM sinks be reused or are they pretty much permanent?

I'm still not 100% sure on how the fans should be set up. I can either push or pull air on the radiator into the case or out of the case in the front with the 2x120mm fans, and then I have 3x80mm fans (one on side, two on back) as intake or exhaust.

There is tradeoffs with each method as I will either be dumbing hot air into the case or taking warm air as intake to the radiator.

Here's your guide to leak testing:

1. Hook up water cooling system outside of the computer. (use an extension molex cable if need be. You can plug in molex while the computer is running. Use a fan on the CPU while you're leak testing.)
2. Look for leaks.
3. Fix leaks if need be.
4. Hook water cooling system up to computer.
5. Look for leaks.
6. Fix leaks if need be.

I mean it's really not BRAIN SURGERY or anything...

As for the fans... the whole point of a radiator is to disperse heat... so you want the fan to blow the heat out of the radiator. This works even better in a push pull system where one fan is blowing the air out and the other is pulling it out. All you really have to do is make sure you don't do anything stupid like having BOTH fans blow the hot air IN to your computer instead of away from it.

As far as bleeding goes... again... not rocket science. Unplug one hose and "bump" your pump until it squirts all the water out (preferably into a bucket.)

[Firestrider]

The air into the case is barely warmed, the case parts won't see the diff. On the other hand, your rad and temps will. Cool air to the rad.

Here is a tidbit.

Sure can, here is the link.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=312743

Yes, but I was thinking if the hot/warm air from the radiator is flowing from the front to the back of the case it would heat up the water in the tubing. If the air in the case is barely warmed then I would think 3x80mm intake and 2x120 pushing air through the radiator out the front would be a better option. I don't know you probably know more about thermo/fluid dynamics than me.

This wasn't definatively answered: which would be better, pushing air through the radiator or pulling air from the radiator, given you had to choose one of the other?

[Big Mike]

The tubing is an insulator unless you use copper or a similar metal, and even then the temperature rise would be negligible. Generally speaking its better to pull the air through the radiator in most cases. I've always had good luck using fans in a pull through set up.

[rainless]

Yes, but I was thinking if the hot/warm air from the radiator is flowing from the front to the back of the case it would heat up the water in the tubing. If the air in the case is barely warmed then I would think 3x80mm intake and 2x120 pushing air through the radiator out the front would be a better option. I don't know you probably know more about thermo/fluid dynamics than me.

This wasn't definatively answered: which would be better, pushing air through the radiator or pulling air from the radiator, given you had to choose one of the other?

The tubing is an insulator unless you use copper or a similar metal, and even then the temperature rise would be negligible. Generally speaking its better to pull the air through the radiator in most cases. I've always had good luck using fans in a pull through set up.

And I'd have to say the opposite. :D

To me pushing the air through just makes more sense. Basically the way my first WC rig was setup, the cooler hung at the back of the case and the fan blew all the hot air through the radiator and out of the back of the case. That's the way the rad shipped, and switching it to the other side never really made any sense to me...

And you are right about pushing the air out of the front of the case instead of sending that hot air over your north bridge, video cards, hard drives, etc...

[Conumdrum]

Pulling air through the rad seems to make a bit less noise and is possibly more efficient.

Coolest air to the rad. Said it twice.

Meaning outside room air is first to hit the rad, not inside case air.

The tubing is plastic, it's not going to radiate or gain any heat worth talking about or even mention or discuss.

Your using the rad to cool the CPU/GPU. Why would you want warm air on the part that does the cooling?

If you want a link to a place you can ask besides here I can give you one. Expect a resounding answer.

[Firestrider]

Ok thanks for all the help.

I'm going to do all the steps you said here: http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=312743

Instead of tricking the power supply I think I'm just going to have the motherboard on with the pump connected via molex. The loop will be outside of the case and I will leak test there.

I only have about 2" of clearance to get to the reservoir that is under the drive bays, anyone know of an effective way to fill the system given that?

Also what are some good VRAM sinks?

[jr1]

i think i would recomend you to leaktest with the components installed and just jumpstarting the psu

[Conumdrum]

I would also suggest you jump start the PSU. It's way too easy not to do.

BTW, I wrote that sticky about building a loop, I'm Conumdrum at a few places.

Dunno how you'll fill the res easy enough, move it so you can get to it?

VGA heatsinks

http://www.petrastechshop.com/rahesp.html
http://www.jab-tech.com/Video-Card-cooling-c-223.html

[phil178821]

so here are my pointers from what I can remember after reading through this whole thread.


i would front mount the rad. as already said, the air coming off of the rad wont really be that warmed, and you want the coolest air touching your rad first. as for push or pull or push/pull with your rad fans, it really depends one what you want to do. the results can vary between rads and loops, and often, the difference isn't very much. i personally use a push and pull set up. my temps are very good and noise is very low.


i would recommend removing your psu from the case, or at the very least completely unplugging every device from it. i would definitely then short the green wire to black on the motherboard molex. this, as you have read, will allow you to run the psu without having to power anything else. I recommend leak testing in your case, with all of your hardware dry mounted (no thermal paste). this is because it will put the strain on your loop (ie bends and all) that it will experience during usage, thus properly leak testing.

to further illustrate that. if you have the loop out side leak test, you wont be bending the tubing between the gpu and cpu. once you install the system, after your external leak test, that bend could introduce a leak at one of the barbs.

[jr1]

personally i would mount it all as it's supposed to stay with termal paste and everything
another thing before filling anything do a doublecheck or triplecheck on all connections
when leaktesting just wrap some papertowel around all the connections
that way you will catch any leaks if there is any and you'll avoid waterspill on mobo graficscard and so on
one last thing before bedtime here good luck and i bet it will go on just fine ;-))

[Big Mike]

Yeah I'm also a firm believer in leak testing the rig as it's going to sit when completed. I put paper towels under all the joints in mine and found 1 leak (loose hose clamp on the cpu block) that literally only dropped one drop of distilled water on the paper towel, and that's not going to hurt anything once it evaporates.

[Firestrider]

Based on the thermal output at load of 206W (according to http://www.extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine) what kind of CPU and GPU temps should I expect?

[Spawn-Inc]

Based on the thermal output at load of 206W (according to http://www.extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine) what kind of CPU and GPU temps should I expect?

no one can know that for sure as every system/application will be different. you will have to wait and see...

[Conumdrum]

Better temps than stock cooling. And probably better temps than a TRUE with massive push/pull fans. Really it's is all up to you and your setup and the phase of the moon. We really don't compare temps, every chip is diff etc.

[Firestrider]

So I'm cleaning my blocks, pump, radiator, and tubing and I found some black machinery junk stained in one of my blocks, how should I get this out?

[Spawn-Inc]

if you can take apart the block then do so and a light brushing should be fine.

otherwise post pic's if you can.

[Firestrider]

I'm pretty sure I fried my motherboard, but I'm not sure how.

During leak testing I found a small leak from the CPU fitting and some distilled water got onto the motherboard. The motherboard was not powered when the water leaked onto it, and I cleaned it up with a paper towel carefully. After that leak was fixed after tightening the fitting and clamp I continued to run the system for 12 hours and found no leaks.

Then I decided to hook up the CPU and motherboard. The system powered up fine, but when I did a CPU stress test with OCCT the system power turned off after about 5 minutes. The CPU temp right before it turned off was around 27*C. I was watching inside the case for leaks and found nothing.

I'm guessing it is not my power supply that is the problem because after jumping it, it can start the pump and a few fans. When plugging in the 24-pin connector to the motherboard only the CPU fan could start through the motherboard. There is no power to the LED indicators on the motherboard.

Another thing: the pump seemed too loud. I'm not sure if is the orientation of the tubing or because there is air bubbles in the system. I have the outlet of the pump go directly to the GPU block, maybe I should make it go higher to the CPU block? There is about a 2-inch air pocket in the tubing right above outlet of the pump. I tried getting rid of this by running the pump with the reservoir/radiator cap off but it is not working.

[RocKz.]

There is about a 2-inch air pocket in the tubing right above outlet of the pump. I tried getting rid of this by running the pump with the reservoir/radiator cap off but it is not working.

Try making that point of the system the lowest, air rises in water. So tilt your case until you see that air rise to the res. Make sure to have the cap on you res. :)

[Firestrider]

Ok I got a new motherboard. I got to be really careful when leak testing this time. Just a couple of drops on the motherboard killed it even when there was no power to it.

[Spawn-Inc]

Ok I got a new motherboard. I got to be really careful when leak testing this time. Just a couple of drops on the motherboard killed it even when there was no power to it.

if it was never powered and properly dried (alchol bath and letting it dry for a week at least) it should be fine.