Nvidia cuts out reviewers for the GTS250

[Cheator]

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/123/1051123/nvidia-cuts-reviewers-gts250

Remember: Everything from the Inq is based on pure fact.

[AngryArtichoke]

They do bring up an interesting point of re-branding. It's annoying when it happens, but they have every right to try and make a profit.

[CGR]

They do bring up an interesting point of re-branding. It's annoying when it happens, but they have every right to try and make a profit.

They have a right to make a profit sure, however doing so by deceptive ways is the issue here, if its true.

Im sure they are hoping that people will see the all new model and not notice its just an old card with a new name/face.

[nightelph]

Benchmarks will probably shed some light on the truth.

[ratbuddy]

Charlie link = disqualified.

[CGR]

Benchmarks will probably shed some light on the truth.

Thats another problem. If you read further down it says that Nvidia has told its suppliers to only ship SPECIAL boards to the review sites, not the regular ones.

My guess is Nvidia wants the review sites to get boards that perform better than the current G92 boards so people will think they are better.

[Shiggity]

Isn't the GTS250 an 8800GT? rofl...

Oh my bad isn't it a rebranded 9800GT?

[nightelph]

Thats another problem. If you read further down it says that Nvidia has told its suppliers to only ship SPECIAL boards to the review sites, not the regular ones.

My guess is Nvidia wants the review sites to get boards that perform better than the current G92 boards so people will think they are better.

Oh now THATS BS. :(

[JonSimonzi]

I know a kid who upgraded from a 8800GTS to a 9800GT, no matter what I said. More than likely he'll end up with a GTX250.

[Shiggity]

I know a kid who upgraded from a 8800GTS to a 9800GT, no matter what I said. More than likely he'll end up with a GTX250.

That kind of marketing should warrant lawsuits imo.

[EarthDog]

Lulz @ Fud/INQ...

Anyway, all that guy writing the article is doing, and this is in my most humble opinion of course, is crying like a little baby. I swear I must be the only one that doesnt give a rats arse about their (formerly) confusing naming convention. Now with the GTX/GT prefix it finally sets them all in line. Who cares if its the old card? The company exists to make a profit. It is not their job to inform consumers. 'Buyer beware'. I also get a little snicker for some reason of people on a site like this that KNOWS exactly whats going on. Sorry people, business is cutthroat, and the age of customer service is well over and gone. Its up to the consumer to educate themselves on the product. If a consumer cant figure out that a GTX250 is slower than a GTX280 then they are truely idiots. A consumer doesnt care which core is which. Its bottom line performance and I believe this renaming puts that squrealy in line.

I mean how is this any different than X1900, X1900xt, X1900xtx, X1950xt, X1950XTX. &900gt, 7900GS, 7900gtx... etc. (I know the obvious is that they didnt carry the core over).

[Shiggity]

Lulz @ Fud/INQ...

Anyway, all that guy writing the article is doing, and this is in my most humble opinion of course, is crying like a little baby. I swear I must be the only one that doesnt give a rats arse about their (formerly) confusing naming convention. Now with the GTX/GT prefix it finally sets them all in line. Who cares if its the old card? The company exists to make a profit. It is not their job to inform consumers. 'Buyer beware'. I also get a little snicker for some reason of people on a site like this that KNOWS exactly whats going on. Sorry people, business is cutthroat, and the age of customer service is well over and gone. Its up to the consumer to educate themselves on the product. If a consumer cant figure out that a GTX250 is slower than a GTX280 then they are truely idiots. A consumer doesnt care which core is which. Its bottom line performance and I believe this renaming puts that squrealy in line.

I mean how is this any different than X1900, X1900xt, X1900xtx, X1950xt, X1950XTX. &900gt, 7900GS, 7900gtx... etc. (I know the obvious is that they didnt carry the core over).

I hope you're never in charge of a company.

Just because you make money doesn't make it right. I hope you learn that someday.

[EarthDog]

That hope is a little to late...but thanks for the poor life lesson. ;)

Im sorry consumers are idiots and its not my responsibility as a company to educate them. Like I said, 90% of consumers could care less that it has a G92 in it as opposed to GT200b. So long as its priced where its performance lies, I stand by my opinion.

[CGR]

Lulz @ Fud/INQ...

Anyway, all that guy writing the article is doing, and this is in my most humble opinion of course, is crying like a little baby. I swear I must be the only one that doesnt give a rats arse about their (formerly) confusing naming convention. Now with the GTX/GT prefix it finally sets them all in line. Who cares if its the old card? The company exists to make a profit. It is not their job to inform consumers. 'Buyer beware'. I also get a little snicker for some reason of people on a site like this that KNOWS exactly whats going on. Sorry people, business is cutthroat, and the age of customer service is well over and gone. Its up to the consumer to educate themselves on the product. If a consumer cant figure out that a GTX250 is slower than a GTX280 then they are truely idiots. A consumer doesnt care which core is which. Its bottom line performance and I believe this renaming puts that squrealy in line.

I mean how is this any different than X1900, X1900xt, X1900xtx, X1950xt, X1950XTX. &900gt, 7900GS, 7900gtx... etc. (I know the obvious is that they didnt carry the core over).


Lets assume for a second that the article is true, which obviously the source is questionable.

So, the 250 comes out, you go to the review sites and see it performs better than the 8800GT. Your WOWed and decide to buy it. Little did you know, that Nvidia sent the review sites modified boards that bench higher then the 8800GT, so the 250 looks better. However you get it home and find its the exact same speed as your 8800gt. Why? Because Nvidia sent the reviewers special clocked boards that were NOT what went to market..

Im sure you would be ****ed about being scammed like that. And it is a scam, again assuming its all true.

[mepis]

I read about this at hardocp the other day. Supposebly they did it to them.

[EarthDog]

What is a 'special' board? What board could make a card run faster? Review sites usually enter the stock clock speeds right? Ok, see incerpt about educated consumers. Business frequently cherry pick an item to be reviewed. Why is Nvidia only being criticised for this?

I mean, I do see what you are saying and that is incredibly shady. But again, Im not going to believe it considering the source. Might as well be FrUaD.

[ratbuddy]

Lets assume for a second that the article is true, which obviously the source is questionable.

So, the 250 comes out, you go to the review sites and see it performs better than the 8800GT. Your WOWed and decide to buy it. Little did you know, that Nvidia sent the review sites modified boards that bench higher then the 8800GT, so the 250 looks better. However you get it home and find its the exact same speed as your 8800gt. Why? Because Nvidia sent the reviewers special clocked boards that were NOT what went to market..

Im sure you would be ****ed about being scammed like that. And it is a scam, again assuming its all true.

Uhm, it's not an 8800GT. More like a 9800GTX+. Charlie just says 'it is all G92 and all the same!' cause he's .. Well, .... He's an idiot.

[CGR]

What is a 'special' board? What board could make a card run faster? Review sites usually enter the stock clock speeds right? Ok, see incerpt about educated consumers. Business frequently cherry pick an item to be reviewed. Why is Nvidia only being criticised for this?

I mean, I do see what you are saying and that is incredibly shady. But again, Im not going to believe it considering the source. Might as well be FrUaD.

"Not only that, but the flat-out dishonesty is that Nvidia gave its board partners 'special' boards to send to reviewers. They are not allowed to give out their own vanilla cards, they MUST use the special set supplied by Nvidia."


Uhm, it's not an 8800GT. More like a 9800GTX+. Charlie just says 'it is all G92 and all the same!' cause he's .. Well, .... He's an idiot.

I was just using the 8800gt as an example.

[Shiggity]

That hope is a little to late...but thanks for the poor life lesson. ;)

Im sorry consumers are idiots and its not my responsibility as a company to educate them. Like I said, 90% of consumers could care less that it has a G92 in it as opposed to GT200b. So long as its priced where its performance lies, I stand by my opinion.

So it's ok if I don't know any better and I go out and buy a GTS250 (at the good price : performance, I don't argue that) because my 9800GTX is getting a bit dated and you expect a decent performance increase.

Because you figured, oh the other 200x cards are really awesome so this should be too. Woops.

/Return

/Buy ATI

Awesome business strategy.

[EarthDog]

CGR, and please dont take this the wrong way, but, 'Who cares' what type card they are forced to use?!! The information about its clockspeeds and such will be published in the review. Again, Nvidia, if this is true, isnt making things easy for the consumer, however I still dont see anything wrong with thier practices. The 'board' itself shouldnt make a difference. Its the clockspeeds on that board that make the difference. Many What about all the hoopla about ES chips? Those NEVER seem to o/c as well as the retail segments. I dont hear anyone yelling at intel for only allowing testing of ES chips before the NDA...

Like I mentioned, so long as the pricing reflects the naming conventions then what is really wrong with it?

So it's ok if I don't know any better and I go out and buy a GTS250 (at the good price : performance, I don't argue that) because my 9800GTX is getting a bit dated and you expect a decent performance increase.

Because you figured, oh the other 200x cards are really awesome so this should be too. Woops.

/Return

/Buy ATI

Awesome business strategy.In this case, you are the idiot consumer, yes. Its your fault for not researching your purchase before you bought it yes. Also, as that idiot consumer, in reality you have no idea what card has what core. And if you did, you wouldnt be buying that card in the first place b/c you would then fall into a more educated consumer category now wouldnt you? Sorry shiggs, I have no sympathy for the uninformed.

:beer:

EDIT: I mean, do we live in a technicolor, LSD enhanced world were everyone caters to YOUR needs as a consumer? No. We dont. And the only way to get around that is to educate yourself on the products you are going to buy. Especially if its a $200+ videocard.

[e6600]

So it's ok if I don't know any better and I go out and buy a GTS250 (at the good price : performance, I don't argue that) because my 9800GTX is getting a bit dated and you expect a decent performance increase.

Because you figured, oh the other 200x cards are really awesome so this should be too. Woops.

/Return

/Buy ATI

Awesome business strategy.

if ati/amd had as much support as nvidia has in fah and seti... then i would have never bought this 8800gt
it seems im basically stuck with nvidia for the time being :(

[Shiggity]

CGR, and please dont take this the wrong way, but, 'Who cares' what type card they are forced to use?!! The information about its clockspeeds and such will be published in the review. Again, Nvidia, if this is true, isnt making things easy for the consumer, however I still dont see anything wrong with thier practices. The 'board' itself shouldnt make a difference. Its the clockspeeds on that board that make the difference. Many What about all the hoopla about ES chips? Those NEVER seem to o/c as well as the retail segments. I dont hear anyone yelling at intel for only allowing testing of ES chips before the NDA...

Like I mentioned, so long as the pricing reflects the naming conventions then what is really wrong with it?

In this case, you are the idiot consumer, yes. Its your fault for not researching your purchase before you bought it yes. Also, as that idiot consumer, in reality you have no idea what card has what core. And if you did, you wouldnt be buying that card in the first place b/c you would then fall into a more educated consumer category now wouldnt you? Sorry shiggs, I have no sympathy for the uninformed.

:beer:

EDIT: I mean, do we live in a technicolor, LSD enhanced world were everyone caters to YOUR needs as a consumer? No. We dont. And the only way to get around that is to educate yourself on the products you are going to buy. Especially if its a $200+ videocard.

I appreciate you calling me an idiot and inferring I do drugs.

Done with this thread.

[EarthDog]

Oh geez, tighten up Shiggs...I wasnt calling YOU anything. I was going along with your story and my context from earlier.

The point was, the person you described is an uneducated consumer which you know I have no sympathy for. Also, this world is NOT like I described which was the point of my diatribe with technicolor and LSD reference.

To be trully blunt with you shiggs, you called me out in post #12. Sorry you felt insulted but it was (cleary) not a personal attack. Im sorry that you took it that way, but not sorry at all about my words.

[I.M.O.G.]

PM's are coming. I see an argumentative tone that isn't warranted, and its no wonder some statements are being construed as personal attacks.

Any more garbage, thread is closed.

[wingman99]

CGR, and please dont take this the wrong way, but, 'Who cares' what type card they are forced to use?!! The information about its clockspeeds and such will be published in the review. Again, Nvidia, if this is true, isnt making things easy for the consumer, however I still dont see anything wrong with thier practices. The 'board' itself shouldnt make a difference. Its the clockspeeds on that board that make the difference. Many What about all the hoopla about ES chips? Those NEVER seem to o/c as well as the retail segments. I dont hear anyone yelling at intel for only allowing testing of ES chips before the NDA...

Like I mentioned, so long as the pricing reflects the naming conventions then what is really wrong with it?

In this case, you are the idiot consumer, yes. Its your fault for not researching your purchase before you bought it yes. Also, as that idiot consumer, in reality you have no idea what card has what core. And if you did, you wouldnt be buying that card in the first place b/c you would then fall into a more educated consumer category now wouldnt you? Sorry shiggs, I have no sympathy for the uninformed.

:beer:

EDIT: I mean, do we live in a technicolor, LSD enhanced world were everyone caters to YOUR needs as a consumer? No. We dont. And the only way to get around that is to educate yourself on the products you are going to buy. Especially if its a $200+ videocard.Your ranting and raving about dumb consumers, that's a bunch of BS who can you trust on the net, if you can't trust a big company like Nvidia who can you trust, your comments are just the demoralizing ethics that people are moving towards.:eek:


Is a 9800 the same as 8800 and do you know 100% of the facts or is there confusion out there on the net.

[MooMasster716]

People [H] OCP wrote about this last week.

Link (http://hardocp.com/news.html?news=Mzc5NTUsLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdCwsLDE=)

Not surprised at all.

[EarthDog]

Your ranting and raving about dumb consumers, that's a bunch of BS who can you trust on the net, if you can't trust a big company like Nvidia who can you trust, your comments are just the demoralizing ethics that people are moving towards.:eek:


Is a 9800 the same as 8800 and do you know 100% of the facts or is there confusion out there on the net.I trust no one company really, and fend for myself. Thats just the way I am. :)

9800gt is the same as 8800gt yes. But that isnt the subject here. ;)

[ratbuddy]

Any more garbage, thread is closed.

Thread itself is garbage ;) Charlie's 'stories' on Nvidia are just that: stories.

[BackBreaker]

Lulz @ Fud/INQ...

Anyway, all that guy writing the article is doing, and this is in my most humble opinion of course, is crying like a little baby. I swear I must be the only one that doesnt give a rats arse about their (formerly) confusing naming convention. Now with the GTX/GT prefix it finally sets them all in line. Who cares if its the old card? The company exists to make a profit. It is not their job to inform consumers. 'Buyer beware'. I also get a little snicker for some reason of people on a site like this that KNOWS exactly whats going on. Sorry people, business is cutthroat, and the age of customer service is well over and gone. Its up to the consumer to educate themselves on the product. If a consumer cant figure out that a GTX250 is slower than a GTX280 then they are truely idiots. A consumer doesnt care which core is which. Its bottom line performance and I believe this renaming puts that squrealy in line.

I mean how is this any different than X1900, X1900xt, X1900xtx, X1950xt, X1950XTX. &900gt, 7900GS, 7900gtx... etc. (I know the obvious is that they didnt carry the core over).

so you also think cigarrete companies shouldnt have disclaimers saying beware to the buyers and be able to put more toxins in them even lethal ones to make a profit? Anyway why is it that game developers like rockstar or the ppl who made crysis make games for video cards of the future that only a 300 dollar video card can run well, yet all the video card companies keep making cards of the passt unless you have like 300 or more dollars for one?

[EarthDog]

That is an apples to oranges comparison and wholey invalid here backb.

Can someone please try to get this thread back on target and not attacking me...please?!?!

[ratbuddy]

Can someone please try to get this thread back on target and not attacking me...please?!?!

I'll try. Both the Inq 'story' and the [h] 'story' have no sources quoted, only mentioning 'rumors' and that is it. It's a smear campaign, plain and simple. ATI just rebadged **11** cards at once, and you don't hear anyone squawking about that..

[MadMan007]

I'd say that [H] being a review site makes them a source. Check the dates - the mini-article on [H] was posted before the one on Inq.

As for caveat emptor to the extreme, well, if that's how everyone thinks then it will just encourage companies to do it more and more.

[EarthDog]

As for caveat emptor to the extreme, well, if that's how everyone thinks then it will just encourage companies to do it more and more.Good thing many people dont think like that. But those that do, never get burned. :beer:

[BackBreaker]

people on toms hardware forum always recommend ati and always make point about nvidia renaming the 9800 and never mention ati.

[ratbuddy]

people on toms hardware forum always recommend ati and always make point about nvidia renaming the 9800 and never mention ati.

Tom's Hardware forum has about as much credibility as a Newegg review :) Like I said, ATI just rebadged 11 cards.

[Mr.Guvernment]

Why is Nvidia only being criticised for this?


because this thread is about nvidia?


sure if you go to some car forums you will see plenty complaining about car companies relabeling cars and go to a tvforum to see rebranded tv's.


i do agree in this day in age, people can easily be informed about a product, what i dont like is an 8800GT is what $100 now? how much is a 9800gt? and how much will a GTX250 be? not likel yo be the same as 9800GT or 8800GT for that,, but if it is all the same core and crapthen...?

the only reasons NVIDIA rebrands is to sell old stock if they have any, and to make money on old products by miss-informing people for the most part, what is worse is the card makers who go along with it Maybe this is why XFX finally decided to go over to ATI as well, make more money cause they know how much people are getting fed up with NVIDIA's crap and , personally, treating their client base as all idiots.

[Mr.Guvernment]

Tom's Hardware forum has about as much credibility as a Newegg review :) Like I said, ATI just rebadged 11 cards.

didnt know that, which cards?

[ratbuddy]

didnt know that, which cards?

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11867&Itemid=34

Oh, and you say the only reason they are rebadging is to get rid of old stock, well, I disagree. That may play a small role, but the primary reason is to eliminate confusion as to which card is better. Someone browsing the aisles at Best Buy is going to see a GTX 260 next to a 9800GTX+ and not know which is better, or worse, think the higher numbered card is. Changing it over to GTS 250 will create a much more clear hierarchy among their products.

[BackBreaker]

I dont know if this is a good move because of the state the economy is in people wont spend too much in great numbers on expensive cards and want the most for their buck. Look at plasma tv's they are going down the drain simply because of price no matter how much better they are than practically everything else:
http://newteevee.com/2009/02/21/pioneers-kuro-killing-a-tipping-point-in-the-plasma-era/

why would people not react the same way to nvidia as they do to plasmas?

[ratbuddy]

I dont know if this is a good move because of the state the economy is in people wont spend too much in great numbers on expensive cards and want the most for their buck. Look at plasma tv's they are going down the drain simply because of price no matter how much better they are than practically everything else:
http://newteevee.com/2009/02/21/pioneers-kuro-killing-a-tipping-point-in-the-plasma-era/

why would people not react the same way to nvidia as they do to plasmas?

You have a knack for posting links completely unrelated to the thread. What does Pioneer getting out of the business of selling obsolete TVs have to do with Nvidia being rumored to be cherry picking their review samples?

[freakdiablo]

why would people not react the same way to nvidia as they do to plasmas?

This is just a guess, probably because a lot more people know about TVs since they interact directly with them. A lot of those people probably don't know much more about a computer than "It's a mystical box that sits on the floor or desk and I plug stuff into and stuff happens." Most of them will probably never pay attention to whats inside of them or what everything does.

[BackBreaker]

You have a knack for posting links completely unrelated to the thread. What does Pioneer getting out of the business of selling obsolete TVs have to do with Nvidia being rumored to be cherry picking their review samples?

you dont think those vid cards they rebrand on the mid or lower range are absolete? and all plasma's not just knack are going out.

[liftedcj7on44s]

wait until they superglue those 9800gt's together and sale them as GTX261's

[Mr.Guvernment]

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11867&Itemid=34

Oh, and you say the only reason they are rebadging is to get rid of old stock, well, I disagree. That may play a small role, but the primary reason is to eliminate confusion as to which card is better. Someone browsing the aisles at Best Buy is going to see a GTX 260 next to a 9800GTX+ and not know which is better, or worse, think the higher numbered card is. Changing it over to GTS 250 will create a much more clear hierarchy among their products.

it is good in that sense, but if they sell the cards for even $1 more then the same card with the old name = scam period.

this is where it comes into relying on sales people to help, but we do know how stupid some of them or, or doing ones own research on products.

[Badbonji]

They wont sell them at a higher price, the 9800gt rebranded was actually cheaper than the 8800gt in the UK by around £30 at launch.

[Mr.Guvernment]

then as long as it is cheaper, then i am on the side of who cares, simplify the naming to make it easier for customers then.

Why create a brand new card for a market that doesnt need it.

[CGR]

They wont sell them at a higher price, the 9800gt rebranded was actually cheaper than the 8800gt in the UK by around £30 at launch.

Possibly, but if the article is true about them making the manufacturers send out "special" cards to the review sites, then its more than likely they want to charge more for the cards.

[Mr.Guvernment]

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11867&Itemid=34

Oh, and you say the only reason they are rebadging is to get rid of old stock, well, I disagree. That may play a small role, but the primary reason is to eliminate confusion as to which card is better. Someone browsing the aisles at Best Buy is going to see a GTX 260 next to a 9800GTX+ and not know which is better, or worse, think the higher numbered card is. Changing it over to GTS 250 will create a much more clear hierarchy among their products.



Apparently:


This information from fudzilla was already debunked and its pretty obvious that this was just a driver renaming or internal naming in the INF, either intentional or not. The RV6xx aren't even in production anymore....Where FIDO got this completely wrong was mistaking a driver renaming scheme into 'rebranding' ala Nvidia's 9800gtx + -> GTS250. Just look up latest inf from cat 9.2 and you will see the same line RV670 along with driver device id 9505 listed for both 3 and 4 series as just a simple reference. Grasping at straws at best.

[EarthDog]

Oh boy... FrUaD strikes again with the INQ propogating it.

What abotut he [H] thing though before or is that where he saw it?

[CGR]

Oh boy... FrUaD strikes again with the INQ propogating it.

What abotut he [H] thing though before or is that where he saw it?

One has nothing to do with the other. The fudzilla article was stating that ATI was rebadging, when in reality they were not rebadging actual product, just changing names in the drivers.

The INQ story is saying Nvidia is actually rebadging product. Where charlie got the information to his article no one knows..

[EarthDog]

No, no... [H] had a little blurb about this a couple days before the INQ article (i thought).

[ratbuddy]

No, no... [H] had a little blurb about this a couple days before the INQ article (i thought).

Plain old rumormongering. http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?news=Mzc5NTUsLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdCwsLDE= is the link mentioned in the the Inq's 'story.'

Note how there are no sources, only rumor and 'off the record rumblings,' whatever that means. Clearly a case of sour grapes going on here.

edit: You'll notice there's a link claiming that quad SLI is pointless. If you follow the link and read the article, you'll notice two glaring defects in that claim. Quad SLI does indeed show big gains, and they are trying to use 4 high end GPUs with an old processor running only 3.6ghz rather than an i7 setup as most buyers of dual GTX 295's would have :)

I'm starting to wonder just how neutral [h] is these days..

[EarthDog]

And I got a warning over nothing.... ROFLAMO.

/unsubscribed from this flamebait fest. ;)

[CGR]

I'm starting to wonder just how neutral [h] is these days..

Same has been said about every review site at one time or another.

[jobrien2001]

Poor business practice by Nvidia. This will hurt them, they will probably loose some loyal customers.

On the other hand im happy to have a 250 gts now lol

[Mr.Guvernment]

ya but those loyal customers dont compare to the millions of joe six packs who dont know jack and just buy what they see on Dell' site or the 12 year old ache filled NVIDIA fangirl in bestbuy tells them.

if it did hurt them, dont you think they would of stopped from the 8800GT to 9800GT line..

[Zap]

Nvidia sent the reviewers special clocked boards that were NOT what went to market..


If the truth doesn't come out before then, I can address this issue after the embargo lifts.

it is good in that sense, but if they sell the cards for even $1 more then the same card with the old name = scam period.


Why would they sell it for more? You will find out once embargo lifts.

People are condemning this purely based on "same product, different name" without considering other aspects. If everything is named as a 200 series then the pecking order becomes clear. Since NVIDIA doesn't have a current "true" 200 series product below the GTX 260, they would have to design a part that was cheap enough to be able to sell as a complete graphics card for that lower price point, plus be lower in performance respective of that price point. Uh, wait, doesn't that describe the G92?

Over the years I've read many forum posts from people wishing that companies would keep making some previous high end part, just at a lower price when new stuff comes out. Well, NVIDIA has done just that. The G92 was originally fairly high end. As a GPU it can even outperform cards such as the 8800 Ultra, though as a graphics card with lower memory bandwidth it was more of a draw. When it first came out, the 8800 GT was slated as a $250 part but market conditions quickly pushed it over $300. Now we have the "same" G92 being sold as a 9800 GTX+ for half the price. I put "same" in quotes because it isn't quite the same. The 9800 GTX+ has a die shrink, has a better power draw/performance ratio, as a graphics card supports audio over HDMI, runs cooler, has faster clock, faster shader, faster memory, more stream processors... thus it is a better product for half the price. That's progress. Now, why wouldn't that progress continue with the GTS 250?

Would everyone be happier if it were called the 8950 GT or something since it seems a direct descendent of the 8800 GT? Sure, all the upset enthusiasts may be placated, but where does that leave the uninformed consumer? The "Joe Average" who some think would be mislead by the rename? Sure, he would be "saved" by not having a GTS 250 G92, but Joe Average would ignore an 8950 GT because "oh that's an old generation" no matter how good or bad it was.

Yes, it is marketing. It shouldn't matter to you and I, the enthusiasts. However, it really does matter to the rest of the world. Imagine if NVIDIA kept putting out 8000 series cards, and the GTX 285 was really called the 8955 GT. You and I, the enthusiasts, would know it was a better card. To the people checking out the video card boxes at their local Fry's Electronics, "oh wow they're still making these ancient 8000 series cards?"

Think of the GPU as just an engine. In cars you find the same engine across different models and brands. Does using the same engine block mean that the Mustang and Crown Victoria are the same car? In games you find the same "game engine" powering different titles. Is this illegal? Does the fact that they both use the "Source Engine" make HL2 and CS:S the same thing?

Does the fact that the same basic Seasonic PSU is being "rebranded" as a Corsair, PC Power & Cooling Silencer and Antec EarthWatts/NeoHE/TruePower Trio make it illegal or somehow wrong?

[EarthDog]

Why would they sell it for more? You will find out once embargo lifts.

People are condemning this purely based on "same product, different name" without considering other aspects. If everything is named as a 200 series then the pecking order becomes clear. Since NVIDIA doesn't have a current "true" 200 series product below the GTX 260, they would have to design a part that was cheap enough to be able to sell as a complete graphics card for that lower price point, plus be lower in performance respective of that price point. Uh, wait, doesn't that describe the G92?

Over the years I've read many forum posts from people wishing that companies would keep making some previous high end part, just at a lower price when new stuff comes out. Well, NVIDIA has done just that. The G92 was originally fairly high end. As a GPU it can even outperform cards such as the 8800 Ultra, though as a graphics card with lower memory bandwidth it was more of a draw. When it first came out, the 8800 GT was slated as a $250 part but market conditions quickly pushed it over $300. Now we have the "same" G92 being sold as a 9800 GTX+ for half the price. I put "same" in quotes because it isn't quite the same. The 9800 GTX+ has a die shrink, has a better power draw/performance ratio, as a graphics card supports audio over HDMI, runs cooler, has faster clock, faster shader, faster memory, more stream processors... thus it is a better product for half the price. That's progress. Now, why wouldn't that progress continue with the GTS 250?

Would everyone be happier if it were called the 8950 GT or something since it seems a direct descendent of the 8800 GT? Sure, all the upset enthusiasts may be placated, but where does that leave the uninformed consumer? The "Joe Average" who some think would be mislead by the rename? Sure, he would be "saved" by not having a GTS 250 G92, but Joe Average would ignore an 8950 GT because "oh that's an old generation" no matter how good or bad it was.

Yes, it is marketing. It shouldn't matter to you and I, the enthusiasts. However, it really does matter to the rest of the world. Imagine if NVIDIA kept putting out 8000 series cards, and the GTX 285 was really called the 8955 GT. You and I, the enthusiasts, would know it was a better card. To the people checking out the video card boxes at their local Fry's Electronics, "oh wow they're still making these ancient 8000 series cards?"

Think of the GPU as just an engine. In cars you find the same engine across different models and brands. Does using the same engine block mean that the Mustang and Crown Victoria are the same car? In games you find the same "game engine" powering different titles. Is this illegal? Does the fact that they both use the "Source Engine" make HL2 and CS:S the same thing?

Does the fact that the same basic Seasonic PSU is being "rebranded" as a Corsair, PC Power & Cooling Silencer and Antec EarthWatts/NeoHE/TruePower Trio make it illegal or somehow wrong?I just wanted to ensure this posts permanence. Very well said! :beer:

I wish I would have started out saying something along these lines!

[jason4207]

If the truth doesn't come out before then, I can address this issue after the embargo lifts...

...


Very well said! :beer:


+1! Nice post man!

Now when does that embargo lift? Any news on the next high-end (40nm?)?

[CGR]

If the truth doesn't come out before then, I can address this issue after the embargo lifts.



Why would they sell it for more? You will find out once embargo lifts.

People are condemning this purely based on "same product, different name" without considering other aspects. If everything is named as a 200 series then the pecking order becomes clear. Since NVIDIA doesn't have a current "true" 200 series product below the GTX 260, they would have to design a part that was cheap enough to be able to sell as a complete graphics card for that lower price point, plus be lower in performance respective of that price point. Uh, wait, doesn't that describe the G92?

Over the years I've read many forum posts from people wishing that companies would keep making some previous high end part, just at a lower price when new stuff comes out. Well, NVIDIA has done just that. The G92 was originally fairly high end. As a GPU it can even outperform cards such as the 8800 Ultra, though as a graphics card with lower memory bandwidth it was more of a draw. When it first came out, the 8800 GT was slated as a $250 part but market conditions quickly pushed it over $300. Now we have the "same" G92 being sold as a 9800 GTX+ for half the price. I put "same" in quotes because it isn't quite the same. The 9800 GTX+ has a die shrink, has a better power draw/performance ratio, as a graphics card supports audio over HDMI, runs cooler, has faster clock, faster shader, faster memory, more stream processors... thus it is a better product for half the price. That's progress. Now, why wouldn't that progress continue with the GTS 250?

Would everyone be happier if it were called the 8950 GT or something since it seems a direct descendent of the 8800 GT? Sure, all the upset enthusiasts may be placated, but where does that leave the uninformed consumer? The "Joe Average" who some think would be mislead by the rename? Sure, he would be "saved" by not having a GTS 250 G92, but Joe Average would ignore an 8950 GT because "oh that's an old generation" no matter how good or bad it was.

Yes, it is marketing. It shouldn't matter to you and I, the enthusiasts. However, it really does matter to the rest of the world. Imagine if NVIDIA kept putting out 8000 series cards, and the GTX 285 was really called the 8955 GT. You and I, the enthusiasts, would know it was a better card. To the people checking out the video card boxes at their local Fry's Electronics, "oh wow they're still making these ancient 8000 series cards?"

Think of the GPU as just an engine. In cars you find the same engine across different models and brands. Does using the same engine block mean that the Mustang and Crown Victoria are the same car? In games you find the same "game engine" powering different titles. Is this illegal? Does the fact that they both use the "Source Engine" make HL2 and CS:S the same thing?

Does the fact that the same basic Seasonic PSU is being "rebranded" as a Corsair, PC Power & Cooling Silencer and Antec EarthWatts/NeoHE/TruePower Trio make it illegal or somehow wrong?

The problem is the shadyness of the entire thing. Again assuming the article is correct.

Taking old cards and making them look like brand new cards, while at the same time deceiving everyone(not just six pack users) by sending "special" review cards to review sites has scam written all over it.

Why send special boards? The ONLY reason to do that is to dupe people and try to get them to buy something that isnt what it is.

[wingman99]

I tell you what it's a marketing sham joe six-pack has a 8800GT and goes to best buy and gets a 9800GT thinking he has a better card, that's the only reason Nivida does this it's to fool the customer, plain and simple there not selling cars here just gaming video cards and the simple fact is the new model is suppose to beat the old.:burn:

Since when have they changed the name of a car and not redesigned the car a mustang has always been a mustang they don't hide crap in the auto industry, you know what your getting.;)

[EarthDog]

I tell you what it's a marketing sham joe six-pack has a 8800GT and goes to best buy and gets a 9800GT thinking he has a better card that's the only reason Nivida does this it's to fool the customer, plain and simple there not selling cars here just gaming video cards and it's simple the new model is suppose to beat the old.:burn:I found this on some other site and though it absolutely perfect for this post. And it is of course meant in jest. Its about the same subject as this thread as well and was meant as sarcasm.

It's the equivalent of a child crying that they wanted the peanutbutter on top of the jelly on their PBJ sandwich, so you take it and turn it upside down otherwise telling them its the same thing is deceptive!

Since when have they changed the name of a car and not redesigned the car.:eek:Ford Taurus, Ford 500? :eek: :santa:

Im just wondering wingman, did you read Zap's post above?

[ratbuddy]

The problem is the shadyness of the entire thing. Again assuming the article is correct.

Taking old cards and making them look like brand new cards, while at the same time deceiving everyone(not just six pack users) by sending "special" review cards to review sites has scam written all over it.

Why send special boards? The ONLY reason to do that is to dupe people and try to get them to buy something that isnt what it is.

You naysayers already said all that. Zap pretty much shot it all down :)

Just wait and see.

[EarthDog]

Everyone is all concerned about the 'special' board that is supposedly being sent around yet nobody has answered my question...what makes a board so special? You dont think that the review sites are going to post clockspeeds of the cards they have? That is the only difference I can think of. What would a special baord do? Like I mentioned, this isnt like an ES chip that does 4.5Ghz on air and retail cant sniff 4Ghz. My guess is that its just an overclocked card. Big deal, plenty of reviews are done on overclocked cards.

I just cant get out of this thread.. Damn you new posts, DAMN YOU!!! hahaha

[wingman99]

I tell you what it's a marketing sham joe six-pack has a 8800GT and goes to best buy and gets a 9800GT thinking he has a better card, that's the only reason Nivida does this it's to fool the customer, plain and simple there not selling cars here just gaming video cards and the simple fact is the new model is suppose to beat the old.:burn:

Since when have they changed the name of a car and not redesigned the car a mustang has always been a mustang they don't hide crap in the auto industry, you know what your getting.;)


Ford Taurus, Ford 500? :eek: :santa:

You are incorrect when they went from Taurus to ford 500 it was a total body style change, when they went back to Taurus it was a total engine redesigned from 3.0L to 3.5L and has allot more power, it's not even hidden, they tell you that information when you buy the car.:eek::rolleyes:

[EarthDog]

Sorry, I meant the other way around. 500 flopped so it was rebadged a Taurus (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS316US316&q=500+renamed+to+taurus) again for at least one model year...same car, PERIOD.

[CGR]

You naysayers already said all that. Zap pretty much shot it all down :)

Just wait and see.

He didnt shoot anything down. All he has said is that he will get the real info when the thing is lifted. I dont even know who Zap is or what kind of contacts he would have at nvidia.

So until he gives anything that supports one way or another, hes just blowing smoke imo.

[EarthDog]

And most have an NDA, but I guess an embargo says the same thing?? I found that peculiar personally. But I looked past it to the good part of his post.

CGR, i think he was talking about the point of his post and not the knowledge he cant share yet.

[wingman99]

Everyone is all concerned about the 'special' board that is supposedly being sent around yet nobody has answered my question...what makes a board so special? You dont think that the review sites are going to post clockspeeds of the cards they have? That is the only difference I can think of. What would a special baord do? Like I mentioned, this isnt like an ES chip that does 4.5Ghz on air and retail cant sniff 4Ghz. My guess is that its just an overclocked card. Big deal, plenty of reviews are done on overclocked cards.

I just cant get out of this thread.. Damn you new posts, DAMN YOU!!! hahahaThey can do anything they like, change chip and add more Stream Processors change the internal clock and have it not report back the correct speed, I could go on and on about how to cheat the reviews and the public.

Your thinking to small here we are talking about Nvidia the company, it's just like Nascar cheating takes the win.:beer:

[EarthDog]

I dont think like that wingman99! Im not a conspiracy theorist in this case (or a lot of others for that matter).

Chip change would show to most reviews sites, the amount of SP would also be quite obvious, no idea about internal clocks vs what Precision or RTuner would show but come on, I really think you are grasping at straws on this one. Youdont think that every single review site out there wont be looking out for what this special board difference would be? Sure there would be ways to do it but do you really really feel that strongly that the company would do that? Now even I would think that is a deplorable action, but nobody has any idea of what this supposed special board could be. But I cant think of anything a special board could do that wouldnt be caught by review sites especially in the current environment.

[CGR]

And most have an NDA, but I guess an embargo says the same thing?? I found that peculiar personally. But I looked past it to the good part of his post.

CGR, i think he was talking about the point of his post and not the knowledge he cant share yet.

Well to be honest, and no ill intent towards Zap, but his posts looks a lot like something a marketing VP may say to try and lure people away from the problem.

I dont think like that wingman99! Im not a conspiracy theorist in this case (or a lot of others for that matter).

Chip change would show to most reviews sites, the amount of SP would also be quite obvious, no idea about internal clocks vs what Precision or RTuner would show but come on, I really think you are grasping at straws on this one. Youdont think that every single review site out there wont be looking out for what this special board difference would be? Sure there would be ways to do it but do you really really feel that strongly that the company would do that? Now even I would think that is a deplorable action, but nobody has any idea of what this supposed special board could be. But I cant think of anything a special board could do that wouldnt be caught by review sites especially in the current environment.

Well, wouldnt it possible for Nvidia to change the information being reported? programs like GPUz get the information from the chips, so in my mind that information could be changed to show less or more than whats actually on the card.

[EarthDog]

It does. But I will tell you what, its more logical than a lot of other explanations I have seen.

I dont know men, I just dont care about the rebrand. They are finally bringing it back inline. And that is a GOOD thing to me. Anytime you have a realigment you will always have haters that think the 'big bad company' is 'out to cheat the consumer'. And many times they do, but without complete information, you can tell whose wheels churn more than others in regards to conspriacys.

[wingman99]

Sorry, I meant the other way around. 500 flopped so it was rebadged a Taurus (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS316US316&q=500+renamed+to+taurus) again for at least one model year...same car, PERIOD.
It it started in 2005 flooped in 2007 and 2008 it whent back to Taurus:rolleyes:


QUOTE:

Link: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/02/07/036411.html

The Five Hundred, built on Volvo architecture, sold moderately well in 2005, its first full year on the market, but sales nose-dived last year from almost 108,000 to about 84,000.

It will get a new, more powerful engine and some cosmetic updates for the 2008 model year, when the name change likely is to take place. The new version will be in showrooms this summer, company officials have said.

[ratbuddy]

Ugh. Charlie says Nvidia is rigging the review samples and bases it on precisely nothing. He's a known Nvidia basher. The only other source is an article that cites only 'rumor' as a source itself.

Cue ATI fans like CGR getting their panties in a twist and crying 'conspiracy!' before we even have any solid facts. Somewhere, Charlie is reading this and smiling. If Nvidia does rig the review boards, it'll be very easy to spot, simply because retail boards won't display the same performance.

[wingman99]

I dont think like that wingman99! Im not a conspiracy theorist in this case (or a lot of others for that matter).

Chip change would show to most reviews sites, the amount of SP would also be quite obvious, no idea about internal clocks vs what Precision or RTuner would show but come on, I really think you are grasping at straws on this one. Youdont think that every single review site out there wont be looking out for what this special board difference would be? Sure there would be ways to do it but do you really really feel that strongly that the company would do that? Now even I would think that is a deplorable action, but nobody has any idea of what this supposed special board could be. But I cant think of anything a special board could do that wouldnt be caught by review sites especially in the current environment.
The hole idea to cheat and have a special board is not to get caught, they have to have the right people to help excluding hard ocp.

[EarthDog]

It it started in 2005 flooped in 2007 and 2008 it whent back to Taurus:rolleyes:


QUOTE:

Link: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/02/07/036411.html

The Five Hundred, built on Volvo architecture, sold moderately well in 2005, its first full year on the market, but sales nose-dived last year from almost 108,000 to about 84,000.

It will get a new, more powerful engine and some cosmetic updates for the 2008 model year, when the name change likely is to take place. The new version will be in showrooms this summer, company officials have said.A couple of my links say only new 3 bar grill and a couple other aestehtic upgrades. But wingman, whats the point in this discussion? the fact remains its the same car. If it was still a 500, and the motor actually did get a bump in power (which it did I see, but same 3.5L engine) it would have happened anyway as thats what cars do midway through that generations life cycle.

Its the same car...look past the literal and look at what Im saying man! :bang head

Ford revealed the redesigned 2008 Five Hundred at the Detroit auto show in January. Ford gave the sedan new headlights, taillights, and its three-bar signature grille. (http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-five-hundred-to-be-renamed-taurus.html)

[CGR]

Ugh. Charlie says Nvidia is rigging the review samples and bases it on precisely nothing. He's a known Nvidia basher. The only other source is an article that cites only 'rumor' as a source itself.

Cue ATI fans like CGR getting their panties in a twist and crying 'conspiracy!' before we even have any solid facts. Somewhere, Charlie is reading this and smiling. If Nvidia does rig the review boards, it'll be very easy to spot, simply because retail boards won't display the same performance.

In almost all my posts I have added something to the affect of "IF the story is true"

So to call me an ATI fanboy, like you just did is out of line..

[ratbuddy]

In almost all my posts I have added something to the affect of "IF the story is true"

So to call me an ATI fanboy, like you just did is out of line..

Not calling you a fanboy at all :) I just noticed that all the people in here harping on Nvidia over a rumor just happen to have ATI in their sigs ;)

[wingman99]

A couple of my links say only new 3 bar grill and a couple other aestehtic upgrades. But wingman, whats the point in this discussion? the fact remains its the same car. If it was still a 500, and the motor actually did get a bump in power (which it did I see, but same 3.5L engine) it would have happened anyway as thats what cars do midway through that generations life cycle.

Its the same car...look past the literal and look at what Im saying man! :bang head

Ford revealed the redesigned 2008 Five Hundred at the Detroit auto show in January. Ford gave the sedan new headlights, taillights, and its three-bar signature grille. (http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-five-hundred-to-be-renamed-taurus.html)
Look the point was name change and different engine, they did not change the name and do nothing.:bang head:bang head

Your the one that likes to compare video cards to cars not me.:bang head

[EarthDog]

Look the point was name change and different engine, they did not change the name and do nothing.:bang head:bang head

Your the one that likes to compare video cards to cars not me.:bang headYeah they did, and thats my point. Im sorry I cant post enough literature for you to believe that. Ford 500 = Ford Taurus. The hp bump was natural in a cars life cycle. They did NOT change it specifically b/c of the name.

But I digress on this off topic analogy. :santa:

[wingman99]

The hp bump was natural in a cars life cycle. They did NOT change it specifically b/c of the name.
There is no natural hp increase in any cars life cycle, some decrees HP to conserver energy and they did change the name and Horsepower at the same time, I could care less about there motivation they did it and your wrong.:p

[liftedcj7on44s]

Ford 500 and the Taurus are both basically the same car and they are still junk. A mitsubishi eclipse/eagle talon and a dodge avenger and dodge stratus are all the same car on the inside( dang dude your cars the same as mine on the inside but yours looks better on the outside I feel ripped off!) Whats this have to do with this thread? Abosolutley nothing. Why did i bring this up? Because all the cars mentioned in this thread are Junk.
I agree with what has been said here though. if the card performs better than the 8800gt then nvidia did do something different.

[I.M.O.G.]

Zap posted some great info, and then we take the thread down the path of a poor analogy and proceed to argue about cars? Ugh.

Any chance of taking this back on topic? The car analogy sucks, and it isn't making anyone agree with eachother... Let's stick to the facts about the video cards.

[Badbonji]

Why would Nvidia scam people by addind shaders to a chip? It would be pointless, as they would have lawsuits against them for all the people buying the card with normal amount of shaders instead of the increased amount. Nvidia have never done this before, and you have no evidence, so it is just a conspiracy. One source isn't enough, especially by the king of nvidia haters.

[ratbuddy]

Let's stick to the facts about the video cards.

I don't think any have been posted yet.. Just Charlie fluff.

[wingman99]

I don't think any have been posted yet.. Just Charlie fluff.There is FACT, Nvidia does not want HardOCP's to review the new GTS250 because there cheating the customers and they don't want the truth to be told.:mad:

LINK:http://hardocp.com/news.html?news=Mzc5NTUsLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdCwsLDE=

[WarriorII]

I'm closing this Thread for 24 hours.

Let everyone think about their quality postings.

Now and Future ones.

WarriorII

Thread is back open - Let keep this on topic (no cars please)

WarriorII

[Zap]

I dont even know who Zap is or what kind of contacts he would have at nvidia.

So until he gives anything that supports one way or another, hes just blowing smoke imo.

I'm just a gamer and an enthusiast. Oh yeah, I also work for BFG (though I've been lurking here for years before that happened).

Well, wouldnt it possible for Nvidia to change the information being reported? programs like GPUz get the information from the chips, so in my mind that information could be changed to show less or more than whats actually on the card.

I don't know about NVIDIA "changing" anything, but I do know that GPU-Z can be wrong. One example was with the 9800 GTX+ being reported as 65nm. We had some angry emails when that happened, and I personally checked a card with GPU-Z and then took it apart to verify the core.

Charlie says Nvidia is rigging the review samples and bases it on precisely nothing. He's a known Nvidia basher. The only other source is an article that cites only 'rumor' as a source itself.

Charlie also likes to reference his own earlier articles as proof. :screwy:

If Nvidia does rig the review boards, it'll be very easy to spot, simply because retail boards won't display the same performance.

EXACTLY!

We pretty much already know what the GTS 250 will be like. Everyone who has an 8800 GTS G92, 9800 GTX or 9800 GTX+ who can hit the official clock speeds of the GTS 250 can OC their cards to the same level (core/shader/memory) and benchmark to see whether or not they get similar results. Any variances should be fairly small and will be due to factors such as system specs, drivers, etc. Oh yeah, and a handful of games at super high resolutions might be faster because of the 1GB video memory.

Of course if NVIDIA did do something to make the retail GTS 250 better, then so be it. That, of course, can be tested by benching a retail GTS 250 that is the same clocks as sample boards. That should prove closer-to-identical results than using prior G92 cards.

There is FACT, Nvidia does not want HardOCP's to review the new GTS250 because there cheating the customers and they don't want the truth to be told.:mad:


NVIDIA not wanting HardOCP to review the GTS 250 may be a partial truth. HardOCP can review it - they just won't be getting initial samples so their review won't come out with all the others and thus they are upset.

NVIDIA cheating customers and not wanting "the truth to be told" is not a fact, yet. Until it becomes a fact, shouldn't you give them the benefit of the doubt? You should know starting... TOMORROW. I believe 3/3 is when reviews are allowed to be posted. After reviews are out, we will know the truth, or a semblance of it.

I think everyone's just making Much Ado About Nothing (with apologies to Shakespear).

[Kuroimaho]

Would not be surprising, they rebrand it for the second time, who would not mention it in the artciles which is not something what Nvidia wants.

BTW check H, I saw it there first.

The way it was ment to be renamed. or Nvidia it was in the box you bought in 2007. etc ;)

[Badbonji]

The reviews are up:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gts-250,2172-5.html
http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/bfg_gts250_oc/9.htm

It is a overclocked 9800gtx+ with 1gb memory is all, but as long as it is priced at or below the HD4850, who cares?

E.G, in Far cry 2 1920x1200 4xAA:
HD4870: 35.7FPS
GTS250: 34.4FPS
HD4850: 25.3FPS
9800gtx+: 21.2FPS

It beats the HD4850 most benchmarks and in some not far behind the HD4870, but still uses less power than both at idle OR load.

[Zurvan]

Rigged as in higher memory clocks, I doubt that has any major effect. Most cards after March 17 will have 1.0 ns memory compared to 0.8 ns DDR3 on all previous samples. (basically 1000 Mhz vs 1100 Mhz stock)

The GTS 250 has negligible gains over 9800+ GTX or any 128 shader G92 card with similar clocks for that matter. Only at 2500x1600 is there some improvement, but hey, if you play at that res. it would be lame not to have a decent vid. card.

And if some of you didnt know, ATI has changed the official pricing to $150 for 4870 512M. :eek: Go go go ! :drool:

-----More Reviews---------
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=17411&page=3
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/16504/11

[Badbonji]

The GTS250 512mb will be priced around $120, and $140 for the 1gb, which then the HD4870 is probably the better option. The 512mb is still a viable option for lower end to mainstream users... My old 8800gts 512mb's did 1250Mhz on the memory anyway overclocked. It is just renamed, that is all to make it easier to compare with GTX200 series. It wasn't worth developing a mainstream card for the 200 series when they already had a strong performer...

[Slayn]

The 512mb, 512mb superclocked, 1gb and 1gb superclocked versions of the 250 are out right now at EVGA.

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=512-P3-1150-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=512-P3-1151-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=01G-P3-1155-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=01G-P3-1156-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

[aaronjb]

While the article may be true, there isn't a single person on the Inquirer staff who can be considered a journalist.

[aaronjb]

Charlie link = disqualified.

This.

[shadin]

Things like this have kept me away from NVIDIA for quite awhile now. I'm really happy that ATI has good offerings, as I'm not a fanboy and won't pay for inferior performance, so it's nice that I don't have to buy NV cards for the time being due to the great competition.

My initial displeasure with NVIDIA began upon their acquisition of ULi. I understand that buying out a company with a competing product to remove competition is just part of business, but it still rubs me the wrong way since the consumers are the ones hurt in the process. Since then they just seem to be getting shadier as time progresses. No company is a saint, but there needs to be some sweet mixed into the sour to keep yourself ingratiated with your customers.

Maybe in 2012 when they finally replace the 8000 series, they'll give me a reason to purchase their products again. Until then, as long as ATI keeps making comparable performing products at the better price points, I'll put my money there.

All speculation aside, though, reviews from this site and [H] from people who go buy the cards retail will answer any lingering questions.

It's a smear campaign, plain and simple. ATI just rebadged **11** cards at once, and you don't hear anyone squawking about that..

ATI hasn't rebranded anything. These were internal designations within the INF of the driver files. What goes on under the hood of the drivers is not rebranding or marketing in any way. Until they remove the label on an HD4870 and slap on a sticker saying HD4970+, this has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

[wingman99]

The reviews are up:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gts-250,2172-5.html
http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/bfg_gts250_oc/9.htm

It is a overclocked 9800gtx+ with 1gb memory is all, but as long as it is priced at or below the HD4850, who cares?

E.G, in Far cry 2 1920x1200 4xAA:
HD4870: 35.7FPS
GTS250: 34.4FPS
HD4850: 25.3FPS
9800gtx+: 21.2FPS

It beats the HD4850 most benchmarks and in some not far behind the HD4870, but still uses less power than both at idle OR load. See this is what happens when people look at the review like this, then they think GTS250 beats HD4850 it's called misleading marketing.:mad:

Those reviews suck because they are comparing overclocked GTS250 against stock 9800GTX and a stock HD4850, you will pay a premium for a OC GTS250 card.:eek:

[EarthDog]

The second review has it going against an overclocked HD4850 and HD4870. ;)

[Zap]

Those reviews suck because they are comparing overclocked GTS250 against stock 9800GTX and a stock HD4850, you will pay a premium for a OC GTS250 card.:eek:

That's the reviewer's fault for not equalizing the playing field. As for sending out factory overclocked cards, BFG has been doing that for years. It isn't something new.

[ratbuddy]

you will pay a premium for a OC GTS250 card.:eek:

You'll also pay a premium on your power bill if you choose a 4850 or 4870 compared to the GTS 250 ;)

[EarthDog]

You will also pay a premium for factory overclocked HD4850/70... was that "misleading marketing" in not noting the other cards will fetch a premium as well?????????

[wingman99]

The second review has it going against an overclocked HD4850 and HD4870. ;)
You will also pay a premium for factory overclocked HD4850/70... was that "misleading marketing" in not noting the other cards will fetch a premium as well?????????

That's still misleading marketing for the person that owns or is comparing a stock 9800GTX+.

Do you get the picture these reviews are vary tricky.;)

[turbohans]

Yah, LOL what were they going to do?!?!?

already went 4xxx,5xxx,6xxx,7xxx,8xxx,9xxx, and started over with the gtx2xx series on the Gforrce family. I would bet money on them moving on to somthing else. :)

[BackBreaker]

The 512mb, 512mb superclocked, 1gb and 1gb superclocked versions of the 250 are out right now at EVGA.

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=512-P3-1150-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=512-P3-1151-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=01G-P3-1155-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=01G-P3-1156-TR&family=GeForce%20GTX%20200%20Series%20Family

why would you pay 10 more bucks for an overclock you can do yourself to the exact same card and you can even overclock further? Whats the point of the superclocked versions? Also why doesnt newegg have these?

[shadin]

You'll also pay a premium on your power bill if you choose a 4850 or 4870 compared to the GTS 250 ;)

Yeah, cause gaming rigs are definitely green. Heh! I think mine burns a dinosaur a day from fans and OC alone.

[Kuroimaho]

Guru 3D has a review up as well although a rather useless 2GB version. LINK (http://www.guru3d.com/article/palit-geforce-gts-250-2048mb-review-test/20)

If they got the pricing right an 1GB 250 costs the same as the 4870 and the 2GB as an 1Gb 4870, gonna be hard for NV to sell me something.

[BackBreaker]

Guru 3D has a review up as well although a rather useless 2GB version. LINK (http://www.guru3d.com/article/palit-geforce-gts-250-2048mb-review-test/20)

If they got the pricing right an 1GB 250 costs the same as the 4870 and the 2GB as an 1Gb 4870, gonna be hard for NV to sell me something.

why even make these cards that have 1 gig on a 9800 gt or now 2 gigs on this card version? Whats the point? ALso is the 1 gig also useless like it is on the 9800 gt for this card? If so it would be double pointless lol.

[Zurvan]

^^Nvidia is actually caught off guard. It cant cheapen the GTX2x0 cards much because of the huge manufacturing costs, and the G92b is definitely inferior to the RV770.
Kudos to the Red Team, they played a huge gamble and they won it !

[EarthDog]

Guru 3D has a review up as well although a rather useless 2GB version. LINK (http://www.guru3d.com/article/palit-geforce-gts-250-2048mb-review-test/20)

If they got the pricing right an 1GB 250 costs the same as the 4870 and the 2GB as an 1Gb 4870, gonna be hard for NV to sell me something.The two reviews I have seen said $129 for the 512mb version, and $149 for the 1GB version, and speculated $169 for the 2GB version.

Even with the ATI price cuts, thats under the HD4870 1gb pricing after $60 off comes to $170 as of yesterday. Its a bit cheaper for less performance. Currently the cheapest HD4850 512mb, which these reviews claims it beats out mostly across the board, is $135. So for the moment, thats still more than the GT250 512mb.

[ratbuddy]

why even make these cards that have 1 gig on a 9800 gt or now 2 gigs on this card version? Whats the point? ALso is the 1 gig also useless like it is on the 9800 gt for this card? If so it would be double pointless lol.

The GTS 250 is not based on the 9800GT..

[benj1290]

Charlie link = disqualified.

+1 cause all of his articles are just rants for me. no facts.

[mastrdrver]

The two reviews I have seen said $129 for the 512mb version, and $149 for the 1GB version, and speculated $169 for the 2GB version.

Even with the ATI price cuts, thats under the HD4870 1gb pricing after $60 off comes to $170 as of yesterday. Its a bit cheaper for less performance. Currently the cheapest HD4850 512mb, which these reviews claims it beats out mostly across the board, is $135. So for the moment, thats still more than the GT250 512mb.

I read a lot of the articles and I don't really agree with the way nVidia handled the whole GTS 250 review thing. With that said, all the articles seem to be pointing to the 125 to 150 price range for the 512mb and 1gb respectively. If nVidia could pull that off, while making a card that pulls less power, it would be a good deal for nVidia. Plus the SLI thing was a good move too. Then EVGA releases their prices today on their GTS 250 cards. They start at 150 for the 512mb and go up to 180 for the 1GB SC. This falls close enough with the 4870 pricing that, since the 4850 and GTS 250 seemed to be awash in the reviews, the 4850 will win out if for no other reason than price.

Now my rant. lol

I don't care for how all the sites that got review pieces, except for a couple exceptions, ran either all or almost all of their benchmarks at 2560x1600. If your paying ~$150 USD for a card, your not going to be spending $1000 for a monitor. Plus, the 4850 1GB was never a part of any of these reviews (maybe I missed one). Why compare a 512mb card to a 1GB? Then there is the whole thing about some sites (bit-tech, anandtech initially, hardwarecanucks, etc) that seem to be more average on their view of being relied on that got shafted by nVidia. Add in some things that Derek mentioned in the Anand article about the initial 512mb cards may not come in the smaller, more efficient packages and suddenly some of what Charlie and Kyle said seem to have validity to them.

Sure nVidia did make a good move by making this card take less power, smaller case, SLI compatible with the GTX+, cheaper than GTX+, and seem to run cooler. This by itself could be a reason to justify jumping from an older and slower 8 or 9 series card, but the shadiness of it all is the problem I have with it. I don't care if it was ATI either. I'm not saying I'll never do business with nVidia because of this, but I'll be doing a lot more searching than I've ever done for any other pc hardware if it is something offered by nVidia.

If it was just Charlie and Kyle that got the short end of the stick from nVidia and no one else, the whole thing would probably have died and everyone would just say something about it being Inq and [H] blowing smoke about nothing. The problem arises when you add in the bit-tech blog and what Derek mentioned in the anandtech article. The last thing any PR person would want to do is to give credit to two, seemingly, left field nuts. This is the biggest problem out of this whole GTS 250 mess. nVidia just gave credence to two people who are very vocal about certain things. Now, anytime they say anything related to nVidia, they will carry more weight then maybe they should.

[Zap]

mastrdrver, I agree with you that the testing methodology of all those review sites are questionable. There's other issues like testing "OC" GTS 250 versus "stock" 4850, besides the amount of memory.

Also, besides testing what is now a midrange/mainstream card on a high end 30" monitor, why is so many people (and sites) paying so much attention to such a level of card? "Bad press is better than no press." Everyone is giving NVIDIA press on this... for FREE. C'mon, this is a mid-range card fer cryin' out loud! I already have three GTX 260 (in three separate computers in the household) and my next card soon will be a GTX 285. Those are the cards that most of the enthusiasts want, yet here we are talking about this midrange product like it's the only thing left in the world. Are we all just bored or something?

Anyways, I don't know why the ECS cards are so expensive. We'll just have to wait until all the availability and pricing settles to come to any value-based conclusions.

[EarthDog]

"new" card price gouging?

The memory issue is moot (mute?) until you get past the 1680x1050 resolution really. Didnt both the reviews listed recently above also give other resolutions? I swear there was a link below the graphs for the different resolutions. Though I dont know why they would use that 30" monitor res when even likely only 10% of enthusiasts have one...

[mastrdrver]

mastrdrver, I agree with you that the testing methodology of all those review sites are questionable. There's other issues like testing "OC" GTS 250 versus "stock" 4850, besides the amount of memory.

Also, besides testing what is now a midrange/mainstream card on a high end 30" monitor, why is so many people (and sites) paying so much attention to such a level of card? "Bad press is better than no press." Everyone is giving NVIDIA press on this... for FREE. C'mon, this is a mid-range card fer cryin' out loud! I already have three GTX 260 (in three separate computers in the household) and my next card soon will be a GTX 285. Those are the cards that most of the enthusiasts want, yet here we are talking about this midrange product like it's the only thing left in the world. Are we all just bored or something?

Anyways, I don't know why the ECS cards are so expensive. We'll just have to wait until all the availability and pricing settles to come to any value-based conclusions.

They may say bad press is better than no press, but they also say better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think your an idiot than open it and confirm it. (not aimed at anyone, just a comment)

Bad press is just that, bad press. In this situation, no press would be the better option. With things that are being said and from where they are coming from, no press would have been the way better option.

As far as all the crying? Who cares if it is a $150 card, which is cheaper than the card it replaces that I mentioned being a good thing. The real crying is all about: Why is nVidia being so shady with the reviews and "black listing", if you will, certain sites all over a rebadge of a card that is: cheaper, cooler, and, less power hungry? What's to hide? Maybe they would rather have filtered bad press than some of the flack they would catch from some of these sites(wild suggestion)?

Some may take jabs at the GTX line for having no real innovation from the previous generation, or the one before that. That same could be said for ATI on going from the 3 series to the 4 series. Sure they are a lot better, but there is no innovation there. Just the same core refined to be more competitive. Yes you getter better performance and "free" AA, but you can say the same thing about the GTX core and its predecessors. Real GPU innovation is only going to be force by Direct X requirements. Outside of that, why spend a lot of money on RDing something that's not supported by an already widely available API? To push innovation at best, at worst to have MS incorporate a similar API, that is not your own, into Direct X later so that any advantage you had on your competitor(s) is gone and you have to start anew. In either case, one will eventually lead to the other, given it is a good innovation to begin with.

So, if nVidia was out to filter the bad press, what do they get? Worse press. Kyle already mentioned that he wasn't interested in doing a review anyway. The general thinking seems to be who cares, to an extent, what Charlie says. If nVidia sends out cards to whoever wanted some, they silence the hard, viewed as out in left field, critics. While most will say what everyone else knows that keep track with the market: If your coming from some low end 8/9 series its worth a look, otherwise keep your money. Instead, nVidia gives credence to the left fielders and the enthusiast community abounds about it. Tell all their friends that come to them for advice to go with a ATI card since its a better value and get something worst than bad press: Bad word of mouth.

Also, from some of these reviews, it's almost like nVidia is trying to spin this card off as an cheaper GTX option, just judging from the resolution reviews. I mean, nVidia is just feeding Inq the press they don't need to give it. It's simple, give out the samples to who ever, Inq/[H]/bit-tech comments don't show up, and the mass middle anandtech doesn't thank Charlie at Inq and suddenly give credence to anything he says from here on out. Now because of this whole thing not related to the enthusiast sector, nVidia's future high end stuff gets questioned by those people who are willing to drop the money. Plus, those sites who are got excluded from the GTS 250 initial reviews, will be seen by a lot of people (both enthusiast and average joes) as sites more trust worthy of reviews. This includes (a lot more so on the average public) Inq!! :screwy:

On the prices thing Cal, your probably right. I never buy anything once it first comes out so I forget about that a lot.:D

[ratbuddy]

Uhm, Inquirer never gets Nvidia stuff to review. They broke an NDA a while back and are still bitter about being called out on it.

[Mr.Guvernment]

why would you pay 10 more bucks for an overclock you can do yourself to the exact same card and you can even overclock further? Whats the point of the superclocked versions? Also why doesnt newegg have these?


Because there is no gartuneee a card will overclock, and beleive it or not, not many people know, or will risk overclocking, as easy as it can be, this is, to them a cheap way to get a faster card since it is garuntee to run @ X speed.



why even make these cards that have 1 gig on a 9800 gt or now 2 gigs on this card version? Whats the point? ALso is the 1 gig also useless like it is on the 9800 gt for this card? If so it would be double pointless lol.


Marketing, alot of people still think that more memory is better, or faster core speed....

[wingman99]

Because there is no gartuneee a card will overclock, and beleive it or not, not many people know, or will risk overclocking, as easy as it can be, this is, to them a cheap way to get a faster card since it is garuntee to run @ X speed.
That would be me, i'm tired of getting cards that don't overclock well during the summer, evga guarantees there overclocks at 90c and I have done RMA's when they fail.:beer:

[Badbonji]

Lol wingman! I just let my pc feel the heat, but I am in the UK so temps in the room only reach 30-35C before I give up :P

[Zap]

Anyways, I don't know why the ECS cards are so expensive.

Whoops, I meant to say "EVGA" and not "ECS."

If nVidia sends out cards to whoever wanted some...

I don't think they had enough cards to send to everyone. Typically with a higher profile launch BFG will send out dozens of review cards. With this one we only had a fraction of that number. These were one-off cards (which generated some of the bad press) because they were not in production yet. Being that there was not enough to go around, some picking and choosing of sites was involved. I'm sure part of it was that the sites chosen would be more fair (or favorable, if you will) to the product and not just drag the whole "it's a rebadge" thing through the mud. The other was that the site would be able to publish the review by 3/3. With high profile launches every site will do that. Lower profile products sometimes gets tossed on the back burner or even not reviewed at all. That happens quite frequently on lower profile review samples.

[wingman99]

Yea that's what I like testing high profile with low profile products, make sure the site has a favorable out come on the product your pushing and don't mention the product performs the same for the last two years, don't mention it's just a name change, most importantly when there comparing prices they make sure it's a low profile product not in the review.

I've noticed misleading marketing in PC component Reviews trend getting stronger and stronger over the past 4 years.

[ratbuddy]

Yea that's what I like testing high profile with low profile products, make sure the site has a favorable out come on the product your pushing and don't mention the product performs the same for the last two years, don't mention it's just a name change, most importantly when there comparing prices they make sure it's a low profile product not in the review.

I've noticed misleading marketing in PC component Reviews trend getting stronger and stronger over the past 4 years.

What are you talking about? I'm not sure because of the 64 word sentence, sorry, but I'll take a guess.

If you are trying to say the GTS 250 is the same product they have been selling the past 2 years, you are wrong. The 9800GTX+ (the closest card to the GTS 250) was released in July of 2008, way under a year ago. There are also other enhancements made to the board itself. The GPU might be the same G92b but the card it lives on draws less power than previous versions. It also costs about 1/3 what the 9800GTX+ did on launch.

Yes, it's mostly just a rename. Consider this however: it costs well under half what a similarly performing card would have set you back just 6 months ago. I'd call that progress.

[EarthDog]

I should also mention both reviews say its a rebrand...at least I remember them saying that...LOL

[mastrdrver]

On the Inq thing with the NDA, I wasn't aware of that.

I don't think they had enough cards to send to everyone. Typically with a higher profile launch BFG will send out dozens of review cards. With this one we only had a fraction of that number. These were one-off cards (which generated some of the bad press) because they were not in production yet. Being that there was not enough to go around, some picking and choosing of sites was involved. I'm sure part of it was that the sites chosen would be more fair (or favorable, if you will) to the product and not just drag the whole "it's a rebadge" thing through the mud. The other was that the site would be able to publish the review by 3/3. With high profile launches every site will do that. Lower profile products sometimes gets tossed on the back burner or even not reviewed at all. That happens quite frequently on lower profile review samples.

Thanks for that info. I didn't realize this, as far as supply. Still I have issue with some of the mentioned things in the bit-tech blog. Yes, some of the things were probably out of anger of being on the exempt list. Some of the sites that got pieces to do reviews though, still have to wonder why they would get some instead of places like bit-tech and anandtech (initially). Plus the resolutions that some of the reviews were done at.

All I'm saying is I think nVidia could have handled the whole thing better, though I'm still outside looking in, so maybe they did the best damage control that they could. I do appreciate your forth coming with information, especially with the perspective you have on the whole thing.

[ratbuddy]

On the Inq thing with the NDA, I wasn't aware of that.

I believe Charlie is the 'reporter' who did it, and he's been spewing nonsense about Nvidia ever since.

[wingman99]

If you are trying to say the GTS 250 is the same product they have been selling the past 2 years, you are wrong. The 9800GTX+ (the closest card to the GTS 250) was released in July of 2008, way under a year ago. There are also other enhancements made to the board itself. The GPU might be the same G92b but the card it lives on draws less power than previous versions. It also costs about 1/3 what the 9800GTX+ did on launch.

Yes, it's mostly just a rename. Consider this however: it costs well under half what a similarly performing card would have set you back just 6 months ago. I'd call that progress.You are wrong the 9800gtx+ is a overclocked 8800gts and a overclocked 8800gts can performer faster than 9800gtx+ and the GTS 250 performs the exactly same as 9800GTX+ you call that progress.

What is the point of a review if your not comparing a old produce from new, trust me there is no shortage of really cheep 8800GTS, 9800GTX+

Quote:from hexus power savings.
Used eight hours and day and five days a week, the 250 SC will save you around £6 a year. Not much, granted, but every little helps.

Yea you will need that $7.52 a year to pay your bills, because you won't have time to work saving all that power playing games 8 hours a day.;)

[EarthDog]

Remember you can overclock (like a banshee mind you) that 55nm 9800gtx+. So the 8800gts overclocked would not beat out a 9800gtx+ overclocked.

[ratbuddy]

You are wrong the 9800gtx+ is a overclocked 8800gts and a overclocked 8800gts can performer faster than 9800gtx+ and the GTS 250 performs the exactly same as 9800GTX+ you call that progress.

What is the point of a review if your not comparing a old produce from new, trust me there is no shortage of really cheep 8800GTS, 9800GTX+

Quote:from hexus power savings.
Used eight hours and day and five days a week, the 250 SC will save you around £6 a year. Not much, granted, but every little helps.

Yea you will need that $7.52 a year to pay your bills, because you won't have time to work saving all that power playing games 8 hours a day.;)

8800GTS-512 and 9800GTX+ are not the same card. GTS 250 and 9800GTX+ are similar, sure. Read what I said again. You can buy the same performance today that would have cost you about 250% more less than a year ago. That's progress.

[Kuroimaho]

We can all thank ATI for that progress. ;)

[wingman99]

8800GTS-512 and 9800GTX+ are not the same card. GTS 250 and 9800GTX+ are similar, sure. Read what I said again. You can buy the same performance today that would have cost you about 250% more less than a year ago. That's progress.
You got to bee kidding me old technology always gets cheaper, what does that have to do with progress.

How Qickly we forget the pricing was not +250%

Date: Jun 20, 2008 NVIDIA has decided to cut the prices on the original 9800 GTX to $199 and offer up this new "+" model for just $30 more - $229 MSRP

GTS 250 stock $150 a savings of $80 on year old performance.

The point is people are upgrading from 8800 GTS or 9800GTX, 9800GTX+ to a GTS 250 do to nividas name scheming and using OC cards in there reviews.

That's just downright dirty play by nvidia preying on the masses who don't have the time to do the research and sift through all the manipulation being done by the reviews.:mad:

[mastrdrver]

I was doing some looking around at things. I ran across a Fudzilla GTS 250 piece that I initially was just a gag review since I didn't think they got one.....yea, wrong on that one.

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12343&Itemid=40

[don'tknow]

From 8800 to slightly better (9800gtx+) to slightly better (gts 250) isn't a huge improvement in the end. Nvidia could argue about it being 'better' all they want, but in the end there will be uninformed people buying it and thinking it'll be significantly better, then getting disappointed.

Semantics play a part here, so some people may consider it a bigger improvement than others (after seeing all the benchmarks). That's fine, go ahead and upgrade; it's your money.

[MARCI]

so you also think cigarrete companies shouldnt have disclaimers saying beware to the buyers and be able to put more toxins in them even lethal ones to make a profit? Anyway why is it that game developers like rockstar or the ppl who made crysis make games for video cards of the future that only a 300 dollar video card can run well, yet all the video card companies keep making cards of the passt unless you have like 300 or more dollars for one?

Actually, yes.. Warning labels are idiotic.. I KNEW ciggarettes were unhealthy and addictive when I started smoking them.. I also KNOW it's safer to wear a seatbelt when I drive.. I know I shouldn't make toast in the bathtub. I don't need stickers to tell me any of that.. Common sense tells me that. I ignore it sometimes, for convenience and comfort in the case of seatbelts. I'm not sure why I started smoking, but I'm sure glad I stopped.

What, you think some smoker one day is gonna pick up a pack of marlboros and go "Holy CRAP, These things are bad for you... I thought they were good for you, I thought they had vitamin C in 'em and stuff." No, you can make the label as big as you want, it's not gonna affect anything. You can have ciggarettes that come in a black pack, with a skull and a crossbones on the package, called TUMORS. And people would KEEP SMOKING.



Part of the above paragraph was stolen from Dennis Leary. But it's still true

[ratbuddy]

You got to bee kidding me old technology always gets cheaper, what does that have to do with progress.

How Qickly we forget the pricing was not +250%

Date: Jun 20, 2008 NVIDIA has decided to cut the prices on the original 9800 GTX to $199 and offer up this new "+" model for just $30 more - $229 MSRP

GTS 250 stock $150 a savings of $80 on year old performance.

The point is people are upgrading from 8800 GTS or 9800GTX, 9800GTX+ to a GTS 250 do to nividas name scheming and using OC cards in there reviews.

That's just downright dirty play by nvidia preying on the masses who don't have the time to do the research and sift through all the manipulation being done by the reviews.:mad:

The cards were selling for a bit more than $229 upon launch.

I don't believe you are ever going to understand this but I just have to keep trying..... The GTS 250 is different. It's smaller (1.5") and uses less power than a 9800GTX+. One PCIe plug compared to two. I do not see anyone running to upgrade (yes, it IS an upgrade, regardless how small) from a 9800GTX+. The top 4 Nvidia cards follow a clear naming scheme now. GTX 295, GTX 285, GTX 260, GTS 250. No more people not being sure if a 9800GTX is faster or slower than a GTX 260.

If you really don't like it, you don't have to buy one. Complaining about the product simply for existing?? No idea why you'd want to do that.

[Craxbax]

+1 9800 GTX+/ GTS 250. Yada, yada.....(Yawn) When did everyone start getting so concerned in caring about 'stupid' people who have enough money to purchase video cards simply for a gaming/etc upgrade.? If you are so inclined there are a lot better places to start than GPUs. Makes me think people are just unhappy, feel powerless and need to vent. No one here is confused about the card(s) and the G92 is a decent chip anyway.

There... I feel better now! :lol:

[MARCI]

Hah.. I recently bought a gtx260 just for folding... so, maybe I've got more money than sense.

[wingman99]

The cards were selling for a bit more than $229 upon launch.

I don't believe you are ever going to understand this but I just have to keep trying..... The GTS 250 is different. It's smaller (1.5") and uses less power than a 9800GTX+. One PCIe plug compared to two. I do not see anyone running to upgrade (yes, it IS an upgrade, regardless how small) from a 9800GTX+. The top 4 Nvidia cards follow a clear naming scheme now. GTX 295, GTX 285, GTX 260, GTS 250. No more people not being sure if a 9800GTX is faster or slower than a GTX 260.

If you really don't like it, you don't have to buy one. Complaining about the product simply for existing?? No idea why you'd want to do that.And your not going to understand with nvidia rebadging cards with the same performance people have been retuning card's by the masses with a ever increasing rate and this has lead to a no return policy in the last few years and ATI is following. This has been a down and dirty play by nivida to sell video cards at any cots.

This is what a no return policy does for all people, it allows design flaws also driver problems and compatibility issues also problems I cant think of. You will own these problems because you can only get the same card.

I know enthusiast are smarter than the masses, they love problems like micro stutter on dual cards and dual cpus and drive problems and all the other problems so they can troubleshoot and hope for a FIX. However 99% public want a upgrade after 2 years that they can see smooth game play with there eyes not FPS bench marks. They also just want put the card in with no problems.

This is for the people that think 90% pubic is stupid, are they really? when they pick up rebadged GTS 250 video card for there two year old pc and they have problems or the performance is no better then what they have already then they return the card whose fault was it. Are they really stupid because they don't know a bout a possible fix otherwise hang on to that GTX 295 with micro stutter like a enthusiast would do.;)

[EarthDog]

I can return Nvidia cards. What is this no return policy you are talking about?

What design flaws? I have heard of no issues with g92 cards.
What driver issues?
What driver issues are caused be return cards?
What compatibility issues?
What compatibility issues are caused by return cards?

Can you please support your statements?

Micorstutter. LOL.

Thats happening to like NOBODY dude. Those that upgrade frequently are in the know and its not an issue. Those that dont likely have a SLOW arse card anyway and a $150 GTX250 would be a nice improvement over anything from 88/9800gt and below. Look at it this way, once the old cards are done, their product line performance matches their naming. There is no good time to rename/rebrand really. You cant please everyone. But at least now its naming is in line with its performance. Can you at least agree to that?

[ratbuddy]

I can return Nvidia cards. What is this no return policy you are talking about?

What design flaws? I have heard of no issues with g92 cards.
What driver issues?
What driver issues are caused be return cards?
What compatibility issues?
What compatibility issues are caused by return cards?

Can you please support your statements?

Micorstutter. LOL.

Thats happening to like NOBODY dude. Those that upgrade frequently are in the know and its not an issue. Those that dont likely have a SLOW arse card anyway and a $150 GTX250 would be a nice improvement over anything from 88/9800gt and below. Look at it this way, once the old cards are done, their product line performance matches their naming. There is no good time to rename/rebrand really. You cant please everyone. But at least now its naming is in line with its performance. Can you at least agree to that?

While you're right, I think you are spitting into the wind here, if you know what I mean.

[wingman99]

I can return Nvidia cards. What is this no return policy you are talking about?

What design flaws? I have heard of no issues with g92 cards.
What driver issues?
What driver issues are caused be return cards?
What compatibility issues?
What compatibility issues are caused by return cards?

Can you please support your statements?

Micorstutter. LOL.

Thats happening to like NOBODY dude. Those that upgrade frequently are in the know and its not an issue. Those that dont likely have a SLOW arse card anyway and a $150 GTX250 would be a nice improvement over anything from 88/9800gt and below. Look at it this way, once the old cards are done, their product line performance matches their naming. There is no good time to rename/rebrand really. You cant please everyone. But at least now its naming is in line with its performance. Can you at least agree to that?
Just keep thinking customers don't know what they are doing, yea it's all there fault. You probably work for nvidia in some way and are ready to defend them on any point that I pose about product and rebadging the same performance.

I would think you know all these things here you go.;).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=micro+stutter+295&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=8800+compatibility+problems&lr=lang_en
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=8800gt+crashing+do+to+psu&lr=lang_en
Return for refund within: non-refundable http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130449

[Shiggity]

This thread isn't locked yet?

[ratbuddy]

Just keep thinking customers don't know what they are doing, yea it's all there fault. You probably work for nvidia in some way and are ready to defend them on any point that I pose about product and rebadging the same performance.

I would think you know all these things here you go.;).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=micro+stutter+295&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=8800+compatibility+problems&lr=lang_en
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=8800gt+crashing+do+to+psu&lr=lang_en
Return for refund within: non-refundable http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130449

OK, is that you, Charlie??

[I.M.O.G.]

This thread isn't locked yet?

It's been closed in the past, its not there now however. I see a few people on point about defending their stances, I don't see anyone making personal attacks.

Strong opinions are good, they draw out stronger facts. This thread has been on the radar and will get a closer look tomorrow but at first glance its all good. :D

[EarthDog]

Just keep thinking customers don't know what they are doing, yea it's all there fault. You probably work for nvidia in some way and are ready to defend them on any point that I pose about product and rebadging the same performance.

I would think you know all these things here you go.;).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=micro+stutter+295&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=8800+compatibility+problems&lr=lang_en
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=8800gt+crashing+do+to+psu&lr=lang_en
Return for refund within: non-refundable http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130449First, thanks for the links! :beer:

I know about microstutter. I just dont see many people lately complaining about this phenomenon. And this used to go for ATI cards as well. You would think if this is such a huge problem the x2/gx2 cards wouldnt be selling like hotcakes. Knowing the nature of forums in that you hear more bad than good, I figured there would be threads daily complaining about the issue. I just dont understand why it was brought up in the context of this thread. I typed in Microstutter into this sites search and found two results. (http://www.ocforums.com/search.php?searchid=4309378) However when I seperate the words I get a few returns, but nothing terribly relevant. (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=570062&highlight=micro+stutter). But check out this thread (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=570062&highlight=micro+stutter) that was towards the top. Many people say its gone!

The compatibility link I could type in any card and pull up those same results. I have never heard of this issue over any other to make a mention such as the one that was inferring it was a problem. All cards I have used have plugged right into my PCs. I should also mention Im a system builder on teh side and have probably built over 100 PCs in the past 7 years. Am I just lucky?

I can also put the same thing in for each card maker/card and come up with similar results. I honestly have never heard of this issue with the 8800gt. I was a member over at XS since before that card came out and there are not any issues about that card. Odd.

I looked at other websites and didnt see the same thing at newegg. Maybe its just at newegg? I can return my card to Microcenter at any time within 30 days for a monetary refund.

For the record, I work for the 8th largest Water/Wastewater company running their mainframe. I have no loyalty to any brand or manufacturer. When I see good points, I agree with them. When I see unsubstantiated points we have been throughout the thread I ask for support. When I see bad ones, I debunk them. This is forums. My issue is with the false items that were brought up in this thread to prove a point. I can only chime in and straighten it out so many times!!! Half truths are not facts and they cannot be used to support your point of view.


@ IMOG - I appreciate the liberties we have been allowed in this thread. It is a back and forth discussion and I believe, so far, we are still holding true to the context of thread (at least there are no car analogies right?).

[Badbonji]

I never get microstutter, even on my GTX295, the only problem I do get is crashes in newer games due to lack of driver support for it, especially using windows 7 (my fault I guess :) )

Sure there are always problems, it happens with every single component. DoA, compatibility, driver issues (ATi almost every release :) ), almost all new products have flaws, otherwise there wouldn't be revisions later on (such as cpu steppings). Things are designed to improve over time, and this card helps reduce power usage over the old 9800gtx+, and the fact that it is cheaper is no way just a rebadge :P

[Douken]

By Charlie Demerjian


...

[Zap]

All I'm saying is I think nVidia could have handled the whole thing better

Agreed 100%

You are wrong the 9800gtx+ is a overclocked 8800gts and a overclocked 8800gts can performer faster than 9800gtx+ and the GTS 250 performs the exactly same as 9800GTX+ you call that progress.


Wait, you are saying A = B, and B = C, but A > B is also true, therefore A > C.

What? :screwy:

The point is people are upgrading from 8800 GTS or 9800GTX, 9800GTX+ to a GTS 250 do to nividas name scheming and using OC cards in there reviews.

That's just downright dirty play by nvidia preying on the masses who don't have the time to do the research and sift through all the manipulation being done by the reviews.:mad:

So, people are upgrading from a $300 card (that's what I paid for my 8800 GTS back when) to a $150 card? I don't see that happening. That's as likely as someone "upgrading" from a three year old $60,000 Lexus to a brand new 2009 model $22,000 Camry. Unless their fortunes drastically changes, people tend to stick in a price range. For me, I replaced my 8800 GTS with a GTX 260.

people have been retuning card's by the masses with a ever increasing rate and this has lead to a no return policy in the last few years

Return policies are the realm of the vendor. If a vendor doesn't take returns on a product and you don't like that policy, don't buy from that vendor. I don't see how NVIDIA can somehow force a vendor to change their return policy.

[wingman99]

Return policies are the realm of the vendor. If a vendor doesn't take returns on a product and you don't like that policy, don't buy from that vendor. I don't see how NVIDIA can somehow force a vendor to change their return policy.I does not mater what any of you think, no return policies of video cards have been going on with the Big online chains in the last year do to massive returns. That's called a trend, and soon it will come to you, just give nividia more time to screw things up.:eek:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10009888&prodlist=celebros
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125254