questions, questions... RAM

[djlst]

Hi!
I loving this whole new world of oc'ing and am wanting to change my 4 1gb sticks over to 2 2gb sticks to achieve a better oc.

With only 2 sticks I can oc much further at 800mzh with the 4-4-4-12 timings whereas with 4 sticks I have to lower to 5-5-5-15 and 667mhz well before I reach my cpu's max oc and the cpu also seems to heat up more.


MSI states about my m/b, "DDR2 1000MHz must achieve via overclocking" meaning there is no option in bios to set RAM faster than 800mhz.

Should I be looking for a ddr 1066 kit or a 800 kit???

I notice most of the 1066 kits only get as low as 5-5-5-15 with timings but I'm assuming most 800 kits would have to be lowered to that anyway with higher oc's??? right??

To sum up, 800 or 1066?
Is there a good 800 4gb kit that can oc beyond 900mhz at 4-4-4-12?
Will I even notice a difference between CL4 and CL5? 3dMark just does.
Or is a 1066mhz 4gb kit the way to go?? Not much price difference at all.

Thanks guys, sorry for the rant but i seem to be traveling in circles right now and cant decide.

[Archer0915]

Go with the 1066 as it gives more headroom and there is a little more tweaking you can do due to the timings.

[18 is # 1]

These will do 900 MHz at 4-4-4: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231211
Be careful not to expect too much as I've read they don't like cas5.
It's my understanding that higher RAM speeds (vs. tighter timings) don't necessarily benefit AMD systems the way they do Intel processors.

[Cuiiey]

Try some OCZ reaper X's. That way you also don't have to worry as much as your ram overheating

[Archer0915]

These will do 900 MHz at 4-4-4: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231211
Be careful not to expect too much as I've read they don't like cas5.
It's my understanding that higher RAM speeds (vs. tighter timings) don't necessarily benefit AMD systems the way they do Intel processors.

but the effects of timings do play more of a part than you may think:)

[djlst]

Ok thanks guys, so 1066 is probably the go. I've had my eye on the OCZ reapers, and Corsair Dominators.
Both are roughly the same price over here in Australia....
Good choice too?

[18 is # 1]

2x2GB 1066 Reapers, Dominators, GSkill PK, and Mushkin XPs, all use Powerchip ICs and will perform similarly (~1100 MHz 5-5-5-15 2.0v).

[Cuiiey]

Try looking at the 1200mhz muskins??? Too bad i cant get them in Australia

[Cuiiey]

I would get the reapers. Im not too keen on the Domintors. Do they stil have the D9s in them cause when i had them they died on me after like a year

[18 is # 1]

Look here: http://ramguy.com/v3/showthread.php?t=57334

[Timothy Miller]

You mention that you're using an MSI mobo. Anecdotally, MSI boards are kinda hit-or-miss with regard to various reliability issues. Specifically, my MSI board (X48 Platinum) is REALLY picky about memory. I couldn't get either OCZ Reapers or Kingston Value to work reliably. Even over-volting, stress tests would cause the system to crash very quickly.

Ultimately, I decided to buy Crucial, and that made a HUGE difference. Still, this being an MSI mobo, I found that I had to boost the voltage from 1.5v (these are DDR3 RAMs) to 1.54v. This is at the very least a characteristic of this MODEL of board, because I had MSI send me another one, and it was actually WORSE. Design flaw or being on the edge of tolerances. Anyhow, only Crucial has been 100% reliable. With both the OCZ and Kingston, my system was crashing all over the place.

Crucial does sell high-perf memories too, but I got the basic ones and then just did systematic testing to OC them. Crucial costs more, but it's worth it because they're so much more reliable. They also guarantee that the memory will work flawlessly with your board (if they've certified that, which they had with mine) or your money back. In my case, I would have saved a lot of money if I'd gone with Crucial to begin with, because I wouldn't have had to pay the restocking fee on the OCZ and also have some Kingstons sitting around useless.

I've built lots of systems and used memories from Crucial, Kingston, OCZ, Corsair, and several others. Only Crucial has worked flawlessly with all motherboards under all conditions. Memory is the the number one area where you should NOT go cheap.

Some people want to sacrifice reliability for performance. They think that they'll get a few more FPS in their online shoot'em'up game. The problem is that if you get a memory access fault, sometimes it'll just be bad pixels that disappear after a frame; sometimes, your game will crash, and you lose the game by default. Is it worth the risk? Besides, you'll typically get more performance boost from a faster graphics card than faster RAM on the mobo.

Me, I'm doing scientific computing, so I'm even more demanding about reliability. I'm interested in OC because I want to get my results faster, but to be honest, the OCing is yielding only very small returns, because some of my working data sets fit into the L2 cache, making RAM speed irrelevant.

[djlst]

Hmmm ,well that's something else to think about. Time to do some more searching for good priced Crutial. I'll check if they are guaranteed to work with my m/b.
Thanks Tim

Cuiiey - best price I can find in Aust is shipped from the US on ebay....
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mushkin-996599-DDR2-1066-4GB-2x2GB-XP2-8500-5-5-5-15_W0QQitemZ190289245692QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item190289245692&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318

So unfair how overcharged we get here....

Thanks again for the help guys!

[Archer0915]

You mention that you're using an MSI mobo. Anecdotally, MSI boards are kinda hit-or-miss with regard to various reliability issues. Specifically, my MSI board (X48 Platinum) is REALLY picky about memory. I couldn't get either OCZ Reapers or Kingston Value to work reliably. Even over-volting, stress tests would cause the system to crash very quickly.

Ultimately, I decided to buy Crucial, and that made a HUGE difference. Still, this being an MSI mobo, I found that I had to boost the voltage from 1.5v (these are DDR3 RAMs) to 1.54v. This is at the very least a characteristic of this MODEL of board, because I had MSI send me another one, and it was actually WORSE. Design flaw or being on the edge of tolerances. Anyhow, only Crucial has been 100% reliable. With both the OCZ and Kingston, my system was crashing all over the place.

Crucial does sell high-perf memories too, but I got the basic ones and then just did systematic testing to OC them. Crucial costs more, but it's worth it because they're so much more reliable. They also guarantee that the memory will work flawlessly with your board (if they've certified that, which they had with mine) or your money back. In my case, I would have saved a lot of money if I'd gone with Crucial to begin with, because I wouldn't have had to pay the restocking fee on the OCZ and also have some Kingstons sitting around useless.

I've built lots of systems and used memories from Crucial, Kingston, OCZ, Corsair, and several others. Only Crucial has worked flawlessly with all motherboards under all conditions. Memory is the the number one area where you should NOT go cheap.

Some people want to sacrifice reliability for performance. They think that they'll get a few more FPS in their online shoot'em'up game. The problem is that if you get a memory access fault, sometimes it'll just be bad pixels that disappear after a frame; sometimes, your game will crash, and you lose the game by default. Is it worth the risk? Besides, you'll typically get more performance boost from a faster graphics card than faster RAM on the mobo.

Me, I'm doing scientific computing, so I'm even more demanding about reliability. I'm interested in OC because I want to get my results faster, but to be honest, the OCing is yielding only very small returns, because some of my working data sets fit into the L2 cache, making RAM speed irrelevant.

You did not mention Mushkin I have never had Issues with it have you?

[Timothy Miller]

When I got my MSI mobo and had trouble with it, I discussed it with friends who were professional system administrators and had between them built hundreds of PCs. According to them, some MSI boards have been great, and some haven't. Add to that my experience that MSI customer service is HORRIBLE. They don't return calls, and even when you do get in touch with them, there is no one knowledgeable to talk to, and they flatly refuse to do anything other than do RMA swaps to deal with problems.

Collectively, the professionals seem to recommend Tyan first. Abit and Asus have also gotten good recommendations. In the past, I've bought both and had good results.

BTW, check out the newegg reviews on the MSI X48 Platinum. Very poor reviews.

[djlst]

yeah my board doesn't have such great reviews either although it been everything desired for me.
On the msi page for my board it say its compatible with Corsair TWIN2X2048-8500C5 1024MB but thats only the 2 gig kit not the 4.
I'm assuming that it wouldn't make much of a difference? That is only the xms2 kit thought not the dominators....
Are the dominators the same just with different heatsinks??

[Timothy Miller]

yeah my board doesn't have such great reviews either although it been everything desired for me.
On the msi page for my board it say its compatible with Corsair TWIN2X2048-8500C5 1024MB but thats only the 2 gig kit not the 4.
I'm assuming that it wouldn't make much of a difference? That is only the xms2 kit thought not the dominators....
Are the dominators the same just with different heatsinks??

Four DIMMs vs. two seems to often make a difference. Pairs of them share a bus, which increases the loading and reflection characteristics on all the signal lines.

[djlst]

I think i was a little vague there....
I ment are dominators better than xms2's??
eg this http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=330310993136
vs this...
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=330310933909

My motherboard says its compatible with the 1066 xms.... Dont know about the dominators. hence my question, is there much difference if any apart from the heatsinks??
Cheers guys

[Timothy Miller]

Commonly, the "performance" RAMs have been speed tested to meet some performance higher than standard, whereas the Value RAMs have just been tested to meet JEDEC standards.

[djlst]

Cheers Tim
Well considering I'm going to have to overclock to reach the 1066 and probably wont go much further.... maybe the xms2 is the way to go. With ddr3 becoming more common I doubt I will be using the ddr2 for my next system so dominators might be overkill for the current setup.
sold my old ram already so its crunch time very soon.
The xms2 is about 2/3's the price of dominators too and both are 1066mhz 5-5-5-15 at 2.1v
If anyone thinks this is a bad choice please speak now!!
Thanks again for all the help and advice guys!

[Archer0915]

Commonly, the "performance" RAMs have been speed tested to meet some performance higher than standard, whereas the Value RAMs have just been tested to meet JEDEC standards.

You know this guy seems to have a good grasp on the subject even if I don't agree with all of his POV's. Not that I disagree with this one:)

[djlst]

Yeah I totally agree. He knows more than me and thats why im here asking you guys.
I wasn't trying to go against Tim. My mother board only takes ddr 800 but can except 1066 via overclocking....
My understanding of what Tim said, was that the dominators would be able to overclock better and the xms2 wouldn't go as much past stock specs.
Because I wont be pushing past 1066 and my next m/b will most likely be ddr3, I thought the xms2 would be the better choice??
However if I planed to oc the ram further the dominator would be the better choice.
Have I understood that correctly?? doubting myself now.... lol
The other advantage is the xms 1066 is listed on msi's site as compatible with my board but they do not list the dominators.
Also I thought the xms2's were a performance not value ram??
My current xms2 (4*1gb ddr800) oc's quite well. Currently running at 868mhz 5-5-5-15.

[Timothy Miller]

I keep pushing Crucial. Someone's going to think I work for them. But shortly, I'm going to make a report on my overclocking of some Crucials. There were basic value RAMs that cost $40 apiece for 2GB sticks of DDR3. I'm managing to push them WAY beyond SPD timings with only a slight increase in voltage.

You pointed out my understanding of the topic. I figured you might want to know where I'm coming from. Currently, I'm working on a Ph.D. in computer science, specializing in computer architecture. Before that, I worked for 6 years as a chip designer. I've also designed a DDR memory controller (the "chipset" side of the memory system) for the Open Graphics Project, which I founded.

I don't want you to think I'm bragging, though. I'm finding y'all in this forum to have some VERY valuable knowledge. I know a fair amount about the semiconductors, but there's tons that isn't well documented or is best learned from experimentation with real hardware. For instance, I'm trying to OC a quad-core, and I had some learning to do about threshold/gtl voltages. I had no idea what I was doing until I started asking questions here.

[Timothy Miller]

Oh, one other thing. I've build a few computers, but I don't have nearly the experience that many of you have with this motherboard and that RAM or whatever. If you disagree with me, I'll just assume you have some good experience or reason to justify what you say. :)

[Archer0915]

I keep pushing Crucial. Someone's going to think I work for them. But shortly, I'm going to make a report on my overclocking of some Crucials. There were basic value RAMs that cost $40 apiece for 2GB sticks of DDR3. I'm managing to push them WAY beyond SPD timings with only a slight increase in voltage.

You pointed out my understanding of the topic. I figured you might want to know where I'm coming from. Currently, I'm working on a Ph.D. in computer science, specializing in computer architecture. Before that, I worked for 6 years as a chip designer. I've also designed a DDR memory controller (the "chipset" side of the memory system) for the Open Graphics Project, which I founded.

I don't want you to think I'm bragging, though. I'm finding y'all in this forum to have some VERY valuable knowledge. I know a fair amount about the semiconductors, but there's tons that isn't well documented or is best learned from experimentation with real hardware. For instance, I'm trying to OC a quad-core, and I had some learning to do about threshold/gtl voltages. I had no idea what I was doing until I started asking questions here.

I really appreciate the posts as they are or at least seem to be from experience (I like that) and not from a third party. About the Mushkin What is your opinion or personal experiences with that brand as until DDR2 they were all I used and I never had a problem with their ram. Actually I did use Kingston HyperX 400 one time and had to relax the timings on my Mushkin. needless to say I took the kingston out of that system.

[18 is # 1]

I think i was a little vague there....
I ment are dominators better than xms2's??
My motherboard says its compatible with the 1066 xms.... Dont know about the dominators. hence my question, is there much difference if any apart from the heatsinks??
Cheers guys
The Dominators are more highly binned ICs. They both use PSC ICs. Look here:
http://ramguy.com/v3/showthread.php?t=57334

I keep pushing Crucial. Perhaps you wouldn't if you were familiar with their DDR2 reliability issues in the last 2 years.

[Timothy Miller]

Perhaps you wouldn't if you were familiar with their DDR2 reliability issues in the last 2 years.

I'll keep that in mind. What was their response? When I've had problems, their customer service was quick to respond and quick to ship me replacements. Certainly, it's not out of the question that Micron would have a bad manufacturing run. I've been impressed with their DDR3s, and I have some of their DDR2s that have worked just fine. But I'm MOST impressed by my experience with their customer service. But it's all relative, since I had a terrible time with MSI and OCZ customer service.

It's also likely that I'm just really really lucky.

[djlst]

Ended up going the dominators....
Thanks for all the help and ideas guys!
Basically it came down to corsair having my m/b on their compatibility list whereas crucial didn't.
Cheers again!

[djlst]

Got the dominators!
Been having a wonderful hair pulling time messing with bios to get them from 800 up to 1047 and keep my cpu at roughly 3.2ghz. Higher than 800 timings can only be achieved via overclocking with my board.
Anyway stoked so far, they run so much cooler than the XMS2 C4's did.

So if I wanted to try and speed up the timings on these, where is a good place to start??
I tried them at 4-4-4-12 with 2.3v but no luck.
Any help appreciated.