Advice on 1st WC Build

[xinque]

Current air-cooled box is finally on its last gasps, so now I have an excuse to splurge on a new system. Going the WC route mainly for the reduced noise (my current box sounds like a hairdryer) and also the improved cooling. I have put together my own PCs in the past but am by no means a DIYer, prefer having everything laid out already and just assembling than drilling my own holes, etc.. Also relatively new to overclocking. Have a budget of around 3-4k for this build, and here's what I have picked out so far:

System:
CPU - Intel i7 920 (2.66)
Motherboard - Asus P6T v2 Deluxe
Memory - Corsair Dominator GT 6GB DDR3 1600
PSU - Corsair 850HX
Video - BFG GTX 295 H2O
Case - Danger Den Water Box

Cooling:
CPU Block - Swiftech Apogee GTX SE
GPU Block - Danger Den (pre-built into video card)
Pump - Swiftech MCP-655
Pump Top - Koolance PVP-450
Radiator - TFC XChanger 240
Tubing - Tygon 1/2" ID 3/4" OD

Here are my questions:
1. Is a single loop enough for this system? If so, how fast would I be able to OC up to and is my PSU strong enough to handle it? Think my biggest constraint is the space available inside the case. I'm not dead set on the case yet so can switch over to a tower supporting a triple radiator if necessary.

2. Here's the loop setup I was planning - is everything in the right order?
Pump --> T-Line --> Radiator --> CPU --> GPU
For a single loop I read it might be better to add a second radiator between the CPU and GPU, but don't think it'd fit in the case. But again, not dead set on the case yet.

3. Any recommendations on what fans to use with the Feser 240? Read reviews that it works best with low-medium speed fans, so hoping it's quieter. Then read somewhere else that performance drops off the lower the fan speed is, so a bit confused about that point.

4. When I'm shopping for fittings, if all the parts I'm getting fit G 1/4, do I need to worry about getting any additional adapters? Currently just buying G 1/4 compression fittings, no hose clamps, barbs, or nozzles. Worried I might be missing something and don't want to be placing multiple orders.

That's all I can think of right now. Thanks for the help all !

Much appreciated. :)

[Conumdrum]

I'd look at a 120x4 sized rad at minimum. You can do it with one loop. Your parts choice is excellent. Just need a bigger rad for the heat. I'd go with two 120x2 rads, place them where you can. The i7 overclocked really needs a 120x3 for good temps. A 295 needs a 120x2 for sure. But two 120x2 rads will be enough, not stellar temps, but okay.

Always T line then pump, T Line on the input. Thats about the only golden rule.

Your fans need to be medium. You can get a $15 fan controller to turn them down when your not loading the PC.

Doesn't matter where the rad is in the loop. The water temp diff is no more that 1-1.5 C anywhere in the loop, and that includes the in/out diff on the rad.

G1/4 is the thread size, as long as all your parts are G1/4 thread (they are) your fine.

Compression fittings are the best looking. 1/2 ID 3/4 OD compression barbs are almost 1" OD , so you need space for the fitting. Make sure there is clearance on the CPU block and the GPU block for them. Measure from the center of the hole at least 1/2".

I'd get HS Yate Loons from Petras, but there are other good fans on the market that are very popular. Some rads NEED Uber HS fans. The rad you chose starts to flatten out with really HS fans. Mediums would be enough, but your gonna need some okay (not uber) HS fans due to not having tons of rad space. A fan controller is your friend.

[Spawn-Inc]

that block is old and has mixed metal (unless you replace it with either the copper or derlin top) so if you want to stay with Swiftech get the GTZ.

that rad undersized for the load you want to dump on it. you should have at least a double for the cpu, but a triple would be better.

and a double for the video card would be best.

1.you psu is fine. you can do a single loop for all that you just need more rad.
i would add a second TFC240 rad.

2. loop order doesn't matter just make sure to put the t-line or res BEFORE the pump.

3. i like yate loons, they are cheap and work great. low speed to medium yates would work great. otherwise check out noctua fans, though i'm not sure what models.

4. with fittings there are 2 measurements.

1. thread size - the standard is G1/4
2. fitting size - for barbs there is only one to worry about the OD of the barb. most go with 1/2" barbs. for 1/2" barbs you can go with 7/16" tubing or 1/2" tubing. (ID on the tubing).
- for compression fittings you need to have both ID and OD in mind. so you said your going with 1/2" ID and 3/4" OD tubing so you need the same for the compression fittings.

EDIT: beat me by a second or 2 lol.

[Conumdrum]

LOL Spawn. Actually the block he listed is the new GTZ with a copper nickle plated top methinks. He meant GTZ I'm pretty sure.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=25689

[Conumdrum]

Ohh looking at your case choice, here is one from a pretty famous builder in the west coast. He's got two rads on a DD Torture rack. Not sure if he needed any custom panels. You can PM him or ask Jeremy at DD, he'd know.

http://www.dangerden.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11246

Reason being, is your gonna need TWO rads for sure. Might even consider one of thier towers. I like DD stuff, I buy from him and he's a great guy. I just don't use any of thier cases.

[Perseus]

OP, if you plan on using compressions on your GTZ, you're going to need to swap the O-rings from the barbs included with it onto the compressions. Unless they've redesigned, the GTZ has recessed rings cut into the tops. This doesn't represent a problem because Swiftech ships their barbs with larger than normal O-rings, which compressions don't have. Switch them and you'll be golden.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that the Swiftech logo on the top of the GTZ may interfere with mounting a compression. They're attached with rubber cement and will just peal off.

Good luck! :)


3. i like yate loons, they are cheap and work great. low speed to medium yates would work great. otherwise check out noctua fans, though i'm not sure what models.


The P12's are the only current Noctua fans that work well on a rad. The other 2 models are designed to be case fans only.

[Perseus]

Ohh looking at your case choice, here is one from a pretty famous builder in the west coast. He's got two rads on a DD Torture rack. Not sure if he needed any custom panels. You can PM him or ask Jeremy at DD, he'd know.

http://www.dangerden.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11246

Reason being, is your gonna need TWO rads for sure. Might even consider one of thier towers. I like DD stuff, I buy from him and he's a great guy. I just don't use any of thier cases.

One thing to consider about acrylic cases: If you aren't the cleanest person in the world, and don't otherwise enjoy constant maintenance, dust will start to taint all of that see-thru goodness, and in places that are going to be hard to get to without some fairly heroic measures.

[xinque]

Thanks for all the feedback. Meant the GTZ SE, and noted will keep the O Rings and barbs that come with it. I'm making the following changes based on the input:

1. Changing the case to a Mountain Mods H2gO - case will fit more radiators and shouldn't require too much modding. That and less cleaning than the acrylic case hopefully. Wanted to stick with a horizontal motherboard layout cause I've been hearing stories about deforming boards from the weight of WC'ed components.

2. Changing from 1x TFC Xchanger 240 to 2x Thermochill PA 120.2. Read the performance is similar, though think I will need different compression fittings because they're not G 1/4. Does anyone know offhand?

3. GTX 295 with the pre-installed GPU block I was looking for doesn't seem to be stocked anywhere anymore. Replacing it with 2x BFG GTX 280 H2OC in SLI instead. Couple of questions. Do I need to worry about my PSU now with the extra card? And does the second card have to be in the immediately adjacent PCI-e slot for SLI to work? Am asking because it seems like a really tight fit to get tubing between the two cards so thinking I might need angled compression fittings.

4. New loop with the extra components looks like this:
T-Line - Pump - CPU - GPU1 - GPU2 - Radiator 1 - Radiator 2

Thoughts and comments?

Thanks again for all the input.

[Perseus]

2. Changing from 1x TFC Xchanger 240 to 2x Thermochill PA 120.2. Read the performance is similar, though think I will need different compression fittings because they're not G 1/4. Does anyone know offhand?

If you want to use compressions on your rads you're going to need extenders, which is no big deal. If you're dead set on TC radiators I think they're still G3/8, but you can get G3/8 to 1/4 extenders.

Take a look through this (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=59_346_393) list, and be sure you know how your chosen rads are situated before you order the fittings. Let me know if you need some help picking the right ones.

[Spawn-Inc]

i've never heard of issues with water cooling stuff bending boards. if anything air does much more damage as they are not only heavier but stick out farther.

thermochill uses G3/8 so just get an adaptor, like this (http://http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/bishsig38tog.html), to G1/4.

[Conumdrum]

Use these fittings for SLI, I use them, it works like a champ. Goes between the two cards.

http://www.dangerden.com/store/product.php?productid=384&cat=34&page=1

You can go with the PA rads, don't see really any benefit over two XSPC 120x2 rads.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225901

BTW, Thermochill was bought out by XSPC. Also, PA rads have 17mm spacing between fan screw holes, not the standard 15mm. They are in pre production for the newer 15mm spacing, but they won't be filtering to the US for at least a month. PA rads used to be the king, no matter the price. But not any more. So be very careful which rads you get, if 17mm spacing, you'll need custom cut panels from Mountain mods, meaning more $$.

Look at the pics of hole spacing in this review link. Also, $70 vs $120 isn't worth the tiny performance increase.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/Radiators/Triples.html

I like horizontal mobo mounting, but it's not a big deal.

The GTX 295 is being replaced with a single PCB 295. Danger Den cut the first proto block on the 27th for the new card.

It's not that much more to upsize per rad. Later you can buy another pump and go two loops, which is preferred anyway with hot GPU's and an i7. Your CPU will thank you.

Lastly, you need a case or a place to put it all together? This is my rig on a Banchetto tech station, same price pretty much as your MM case.
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=604016

[Perseus]

So be very careful which rads you get, if 17mm spacing, you'll need custom cut panels from Mountain mods, meaning more $$.

As part of the initial order MM asks what hole spacing you want. There's no additional charge (invoice item) for this. The current choices are Swiftech/HWlabs/TFC/TC, which covers a broad range of heavy-hitter rads.

[Perseus]

i've never heard of issues with water cooling stuff bending boards.

There have been whispers about this every since FC GPU blocks were introduced. In my experience the case ends up carrying the added weight, and I've never had a FC-equipped GPU (SLI or otherwise) break or otherwise damage a MB. Urban legend anyone? ;)

[ned3000]

I'm no expert, but I've got a few similar components.


Memory - Corsair Dominator GT 6GB DDR3 1600


If this comes with the little "ram fan" attachment, I'd not install that; I'm listening to mine rattle and buzz right now, and I'm not sure they actually do much.


Video - BFG GTX 295 H2O


I have a BFG 280 H20 and it's working out really well. Running at 700 MHz it doesn't even heat up.

Pump - Swiftech MCP-655

I was looking at that pump too and after some research went with the 355 with XSPC rad top. It's got higher head pressure which makes it better suited to multiple blocks.

Tubing - Tygon 1/2" ID 3/4" OD

Worth the cost IMHO.

2. Here's the loop setup I was planning - is everything in the right order?
Pump --> T-Line --> Radiator --> CPU --> GPU


From what I gather, order isn't too important. The coolant is going to settle in at a given temperature regardless of how it's routed.

3. Any recommendations on what fans to use with the Feser 240? Read reviews that it works best with low-medium speed fans, so hoping it's quieter.

The medium speed Yate Loons are working well for me; pretty good airflow/noise ratio (and cheap.)

[Perseus]

Tygon. Worth the cost IMHO.

That depends. When pressed on why 3603 clouds up a Tygon rep told an XS poster that it simply isn't designed for water cooling. IMO, that sort of statement is worth considering.

[Spawn-Inc]

I was looking at that pump too and after some research went with the 355 with XSPC rad top. It's got higher head pressure which makes it better suited to multiple blocks.

res not rad :) :beer:

[xinque]

Thanks again for all the feedback guys.

Still sorting out the fan spacings on the radiators with my case, other than that bout ready to order and start building.

Have a couple more questions which came to mind:

1. Fan orientation on the radiators. Was looking at pics of other WC builds and noticed some had the fans between the radiator and the case, others had the radiator between the fan and the case, and still others had the radiator sandwiched between dual fans. Is there a big difference between these configurations, what are the pros/cons?

2. Fan shrouds, yes or no?

3. Will have a radiator in the front and back of my case, mounted internally (hopefully). I'm guessing the back radiator should be venting out, however for the front radiator, should I be pulling air into the case to generate air flow or blowing out the front? Read that air flow is necessary in a case even for WC builds, but wouldn't I be pulling in warm air through the front radiator then?

4. How do I monitor the water temperature on my system? I'm guessing there are sensors that hook up to the radiator in and out valves? Any recommendations for a good bay console to monitor all this?

Thanks !

[SemiCycle]

I'm going to recommend some changes I think will give you much better performance. This setup has 2 pump loops to separate your CPU and GPU and comes in at a slightly CHEAPER price which is always good. Not sure how set you on on the clear case, but the cooler master I recommend below is becoming a popular choice for water cooling due to the built in fans that ship with the case and the space at the top of the case that can easily accept a 3 fan Radiator. The 2x120 radiator can fit at the bottom of the case with a little modding or you could save alittle more money and go with a 1x120 radiator that will fit on the bottom of the case with no modding. Here goes the changes I suggest:


CHANGE THESE COMPONENTS:
DangerDen WaterBox - $189.99
swiftech MCP-655 - 64.95
TFC Xchanger240 - $129.00
Koolance PVP-450 - No idea on price... lets say $35.00
==========
Total = $418.94


GET THESE COMPONENTS:
(2) MPC 355 - $64.95x2 - performance-pcs.com
(2) MPC 355 - $19.95x2 - performance-pcs.com
Case Cooler Master HAF-932 - $149.99 - Newegg
Swiftech MCR320-QP - $49.99 - Newegg
Swiftech MCR220-QP - $35.99 - Newegg
==========
Total = $405.77

[Conumdrum]

Thanks again for all the feedback guys.

Still sorting out the fan spacings on the radiators with my case, other than that bout ready to order and start building.

Have a couple more questions which came to mind:

1. Fan orientation on the radiators. Was looking at pics of other WC builds and noticed some had the fans between the radiator and the case, others had the radiator between the fan and the case, and still others had the radiator sandwiched between dual fans. Is there a big difference between these configurations, what are the pros/cons?


2. Fan shrouds, yes or no?

3. Will have a radiator in the front and back of my case, mounted internally (hopefully). I'm guessing the back radiator should be venting out, however for the front radiator, should I be pulling air into the case to generate air flow or blowing out the front? Read that air flow is necessary in a case even for WC builds, but wouldn't I be pulling in warm air through the front radiator then?

4. How do I monitor the water temperature on my system? I'm guessing there are sensors that hook up to the radiator in and out valves? Any recommendations for a good bay console to monitor all this?

Thanks !

Fan setup really matters a little bit. Push or pull can make a diff on noise and temps somewhat, but not a big deal. Make em' fit is the key. Don't fret it for now. Running push pull fans (fans on each side) is sometimes needed depending on the rad type and cooling required. Some folks get a bit crazy with fannage. Some need it. Only your temps will tell you.

Yes, your reading, thank you! Yes you need case airflow for all the other parts in the case still that aren't watercooled. Putting the first rad in the front pulling cool outside air into the case is the way we like it.

First WC rule, res before pump. Second is coolest air to rad you can, but a very bendabe rule.

Your gonna have a second rad out the back on two 120mm fan holes? It's done, no biggie. What you need to make sure is the air in the case due to two rads isn't moving too slowly. Meaning the first rad has good airflow and isn't being restricted by a total of two rads. the second rad will get warmer air than the first, but with good airflow it's not much of a temp difference. Only your setup will tell when you begin loading temps. Just try for good temps first, if they are fine, no worries!

Monitoring water temps. You might think thats critical, but few do it. These pumps we run are so bulletproof it's few, very few that have pumps dying. Monitoring CPU temps in the bios and setting a shutdown temp is mostly what we do. A fact that amazes folks is the water temp from in to rad out of rad changes by no more than 1.5 C.

Your best bet is become comfortable with temp monitoring software like realtemp etc, do your max overclocks, monitor temps, if all good no worries. I was freaky the first few months, always loaded xx each time, but after a while, it's good, I don't worry about it a lot.

But you can spend easily $200 on an Aquaro, fan speed checkers, pump monitors, temp monitors, baby monitors, all USB'ed to your mobo etc. It is availible.

[xinque]

Hey guys, parts started to arrive and trying to figure out how to put it all together. Some questions:

1. First time looking at a compression fitting. The end that fits into the tubing seems to match the ID of the tube exactly at first, and then starts to widen out the further in. When I attach the tubing, should I force it all the way through to the end of the fitting? Or stop once I start to encounter resistance?

2. Is flushing the radiators and water blocks with vinegar really necessary, or will distilled water just do?

3. How exactly do I fill the loop initially? I'm using a T-line and read that the pump needs to be filled with water first before being turned on, or else it'll short or something. Do I pour water in using a funnel, wait for the pump to fill, turn the pump on, and then continue pouring water? Should the pump be on low-speed when I'm filling so it doesn't pump water faster than I can fill it?

Thanks again, sorry if some of the questions seem kinda dumb or if I'm worrying about non-issues.

[Spawn-Inc]

Hey guys, parts started to arrive and trying to figure out how to put it all together. Some questions:

1. First time looking at a compression fitting. The end that fits into the tubing seems to match the ID of the tube exactly at first, and then starts to widen out the further in. When I attach the tubing, should I force it all the way through to the end of the fitting? Or stop once I start to encounter resistance?

2. Is flushing the radiators and water blocks with vinegar really necessary, or will distilled water just do?

3. How exactly do I fill the loop initially? I'm using a T-line and read that the pump needs to be filled with water first before being turned on, or else it'll short or something. Do I pour water in using a funnel, wait for the pump to fill, turn the pump on, and then continue pouring water? Should the pump be on low-speed when I'm filling so it doesn't pump water faster than I can fill it?

Thanks again, sorry if some of the questions seem kinda dumb or if I'm worrying about non-issues.


1. i've never used them but my mechanical side says remove the compression ring, put it on the tubing. push the tubing onto the body all the way then tight the ring down. i believe you can get hand tight, but not sure if you need to wrench it.

2. for the rad use hot soapy water. for today's rads using water based flux you can use hot soapy water for cleaning it out. no vinegar needed. i would just use hot tap water at first then after a couple of shakes (plug the to ends of the rad with your fingers and shake!) then rinse 4 or so times with distilled water.
take apart the cpu block to check for debris and other crap that might be in there and do the same with hot soapy water as the rad.


3. build the loop so that the t-line feeds the pump intake. once the whole loop is put together fill the t line until it gets close to overflowing. turn the pump to the lowest setting and 'bump it' by turning the power onto the pump and let it suck the water down the t-line. refill and repeat.

note that you should only be turning on the pump, not the pc. i assume you know how to jump the psu so it runs without the mobo?

[xinque]

note that you should only be turning on the pump, not the pc. i assume you know how to jump the psu so it runs without the mobo?

I figured it was just disconnecting everything from the PSU except for the pump, or is there something else I'm missing? Also, would that mean the pump stays running even when the PC is off?

Thanks for clarifying.

[Conumdrum]

Yep, you do disconnect everything except the pump. But you need to jumper the 24 pin connector to make the PSU turn on. Unplug PSU from the wall, turn off PSU switch. Jump the green and any black wire and leave the wire in. Plug PSU in, turn switch on, pump will start. Do NOT run the pump dry, ceramic bearings need water to cool them. Then you just use the PSU switch to turn the pump off/on to bump the pump as you fill.

[xinque]

Hey guys, still waiting on MountainMods to ship my case. Trying to see what I'm missing still and not sure how to close off my T-line. Is there a special plug or fitting for it you guys can recommend?

Also, is it true that I shouldn't move the PC around much as it could dislodge something and start a leak? Been reading posts about how that happens and wondering if I should build my PC right at my desk to avoid moving it.

[Conumdrum]

Naa, I moved mine. gently picking up a box and gently carrying it from one place to another is not a problem.
Plug it with anything you feel fits.
Ohh, You seen this post I wrote to help with the 'What the heck to I do when the parts arrive'?
Anyway here is the link.......
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=312743 What to do once all the stuff is in the door

no attention to the fools talking about teflon tape, please, or silicon....OMG.

[Spawn-Inc]

for the t line use any fill port sold, i personally like the swiftech ones

http://www.jab-tech.com/Swiftech-1-4-BSPP-to-1-2-barb-fill-port-fittings-High-polish-chrome-plated-brass-pr-4315.html

and i don't move my pc around alot, but when i do, i try to be somewhat careful, but it's hard when it's 70 lbs.