First Loop Questions.

[ChanceCoats123]

Well, as the title states this would be my first loop. I have been a bit hesitant to start this thread because I have seen it before, brand new people making threads and the veterans in WC'ing having to baby sit them. So I will try to do this as well as I can. I do know that I don't, infact, know much about water cooling, but I made a cart on performance-pcs.

I have:

MCP 350 pump

MCR220 QP radiator

Apogee GT Uni. Block

XSPC Acrylic pump top/ Res (as seen in hoki's latest loop)

Clearflex 60 3/8 ID, 5/8 OD tubing

Stainless worm clamps

And Yate loon Meds.

Now I have a few questions.

1. It seems that most of the blocks I have seen are 775 or 1366. I have seen and heard good things about swiftech so I went with their block, but I wanted to know if there were any other good Am2 blocks for about the same price?

2. I am getting the radiator and pump top without barbs, but I can't find any copper barbs on performance-pcs, so I was wondering, what materials are okay to run with distilled water + an additive (which brings me to 3.)

3. Is an 80/20 mixture of distilled water and antifreeze good? I also am not sure if there is a "special" kind of antifreeze or if it is simply what your car's radiator is filled with?

and 4. Pretty simple. Are yate loon meds. enough to push through a MCR220? I will be doing a cpu only loop so it is not really going to handle that much heat (150> watts) but I do want to have a good performing system.

My total came to $215.15 which was surprisingly do-able for me, so I just want to make sure I have a set list before I start any purchasing (which won't be until Christmas with my other parts (new mobo and ram). I probably sound as green as it gets, but any help would be seriously appreciated, so Thanks in advance!

-Chance Coats.

[Conumdrum]

1. Donno about AMD
2. Barbs are usually chrome coated brass. Pick the size you need. Chrome is fine.
3. Distilled water from Walgreens $1 a gallon, Petras PHN nuke or an Ianh Kill Coil from Petras. Make sure you look at USPS shipping costs, very cheap for small stuff. No antifreeze needed, your not going below freezing and need no anti corrosion stuff.
4. Those fans are plenty fine for that rad.

[Spawn-Inc]

1. the apogee GT is a bit old, but will do. check out the Dtek V1 or V2 or newer swiftech GTZ, but i believe you need to buy the am2 adaptor separate.
2. as long as the barb isn't aluminum, which i've never seen, your fine. it doesn't have to be copper.
3. you don't need antifreeze since you don't have any aluminum in your loop. distilled water and some PT nuke PHN or some silver in your loop are fine.
4. i feel yate loons and swiftech rads are meant for each other. both offer great performance vs. price. i run high speed yates undervolted to 5v for noise. even with 18 of them running it's not that loud.

check out jabtech, pt nuke and sidewinders for better pricing.

from my experience with clearflex tubing i don't like it. it clouded up on my fairly quickly. i've since changed to masterkleer 7/16" over 1/2" barbs and haven't looked back. plus it's even cheaper then clearflex.

[ChanceCoats123]

Thanks guys. I went onto jabtech and priced out a new loop.

Apogee Gtz + Amd Hold down bracket

MCP355 + XSPC Acrylic top

MCR220, the QP was out of stock so I just subbed the reservoir version.

10ft. Masterkleer tubing

Swiftech Hydrx additive

2 DTEK 3/8 barbs.

Total came to $254.xx shipped + however much for 10 worm style clamps at home depot.

Now since the tubing is ID 7/16, I shouldn't have an issue with leaks once the clamps are on correct?

[Diggrr]

Just a couple of notes on the new hardware list.

The res version of Swifty's radiator is meant to be run with the barbs downward. Just so you know when planning your tubing routing. Of course then a separate reservoir isn't needed (don't know if you planned on scrubbing that or if it's the non-res XSPC top you listed).

You can skip the Hydrx additive. Seriously, the PHN nuke (or kill coils) is all that's necessary with your distilled water, and it gives the best cooling performance. That's almost the only Swiftech part I'd turn my nose up at.

7/16" tube is an excellent choice, but it's safety over another is still in the hands of the installer. Take proper care and it works very well and seals better than most.

[ChanceCoats123]

The reservoir version of the MCR220 was only there so I could get an idea of the price, but thanks for the tip!

As for the additive, when you say PHN Nuke/Kill Coils, I didn't see either of those on jabtech and I would like the keep these orders from the same place so I can get the whole loop at once.

[Spawn-Inc]

petras sells pt nuke and silver kill coils, links below.

look at all the shipping options if your just going to order that.

silver kill coil (http://www.petrastechshop.com/sikibyia.html)

pt nuke PHN (http://www.petrastechshop.com/peptpcobi1.html)


if you have the space, opt for the extra $10 and get the MCR320.

[baditude_df]

Just go to Petra's then. I can't see them being any more expensive, if at all.

[Diggrr]

CureChrome at Walgreens drugstore.
A little knocking around in Google turned up this little bit of info.
Walgreen's site does not mention the concentration of theirs, but I'd stick with a few drops anyway. Petra says 1.65%.

Just a thought.

*edit .13%. Huh, think I have to try this stuff out myself. I don't mind being a crash test dummy!

[ChanceCoats123]

Yeah, since the add's are at petra's I will probably order from there, but get the rest of the loop at jabtech since it is a $25-30 price difference.

On the subject of the MCR320, Do you think it would be worth the money to get it and another fan? I assume that was incase I ever added a gpu block, but I am definately starting with just the cpu.

Edit: Made a cart on petra's too.

Apogee GTZ + Am2 mounting kit.

MCR320 + 3 yateloon meds.

MCP355 + XSPC top.

10ft MasterKleer 7/16 ID, 5/8 OD

10ml PT Nuke

2 dtek barbs

10 SS worm clamps.

Total: $295.49 shipped to my door.

[atomic ferret]

Your most recent list looks really good. Good luck getting everything together.

[Spawn-Inc]

if your just using distilled water, make sure to get the PT nuke PHN stuff, i linked to it above.


and if you do get medium or low speed yate loons be sure to order them from petra's. it seems that jabtech has the bad quality versions of those speeds. of the 18 high speed yate loons i got from jabtech all were good quality. i ordered 3 separate times in batches of 6.

it's worth the extra 10-15 for the MCR320 so long as you have the space.

[ChanceCoats123]

Thanks guys. I won't be ordering for a while, but I have it all bookmarked in my browser so i can get ordering once funds come in :D.

[baditude_df]

What kind of enclosure is this going into? If the loop is going to be exposed to any type of light you should seriously consider some Opaque tubing to ensure a low maintenance loop.

1/2" ID (3/4" OD) Tygon Silver Antimicrobial (http://www.jab-tech.com/Tygon-Silver-Antimicrobial-Tubing-1-2in.-ID-3-4in.-OD-AS600038-pr-4104.html)
1/2" ID (3/4" OD) Tygon R-3400 UV Resistant (http://www.petrastechshop.com/1id3odtyruvr.html)
Or my personal favorite for bend radius:
PrimoFlex Pro LRT Black Tubing -1/2in. ID X 3/4in. OD (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=292&products_id=23924)

I thought I'd miss seeing the fluid through the tubing, but I don't. This actually looks better.

I'm actually doing a test right now. When I first got that XSPC reservoir, I had it covered over with black membrane to block out the light. I kept it on there for 4 months and took it off in May where I found that the coolant was clean as the day I put it in there. I plan on doing my loop maintenance next month so I won't know for sure until then, but since I've exposed the coolant things already look to be getting a bit cloudy in there. Even with the PT Nuke and Kill Coil. I'll post picutures of the block and Reservoir when I do the teardown.

[ChanceCoats123]

So this (http://www.jab-tech.com/PrimoFlex-Pro-LRT-Black-Tubing-7-16in.-ID-X-5-8in.-OD-pr-4423.html) tubing would be a better idea? I have it in my basement and the loop will only be exposed about 5-6 inches each way because the rad will be on the back with the barbs facing the front of the case. By then I will have moved from my $15 case to an Antec 300. I chose that case for my sister's build and I am definately in love. It may not have too much room but the rad will be off the back with everything else inside the case.

[Conumdrum]

A boicide is all you need, no worries about tube color or opaqeness. I think. Battudes though is mentioned but haven't see lots of peeps complaing anywhere about growth with distilled with PHN Nuke or PT Nuke.

[ChanceCoats123]

Okay good. Although it is only $1.50 or so price difference, that adds up when you guy in 10's. I will be getting the PT Nuke and run it with distilled so I guess I shouldn't have an issue.

[Conumdrum]

PHM Nuke for distilled only. Petra is a science guy. He made PT Nuke for loops. He found PHN nuke (or the stuff he uses to make it) better and less probmlematic for a Distilled only loop. PT Nuke went well with some of the odd additives we used to use. PHN has no copper stuff and if used properly is golden.

If I use some of a gallon of distilled and toss it in my dark closet, I put one drop of PHN in it. It should kep it safe.
Dunno whay I do when about 1/2 mile up the street is a Walgreens with Distilled gallons at $1. Anyway, I have a gallon sealed in the closet if I'm really anal.

Never had a growth with Petras stuff. Thanks Petra. Met him at CES 09 at Fuggers AMD OC event. A very very nice guy. And he's not rich, he's surviving.

[ChanceCoats123]

So since I will be running distilled alone, (since it is an all copper/chrome loop) it is best to use PHN instead of straight PT?

[doz]

You can always use something like Water Wetter from an autoparts store, works good.

Also, DONT get masterkleer tubing, its garbage. I used that and Primo. Primo is MUCH better, especially if you have even SEMI-tight bends.

Also, they are a bit more, but maybe look into a better fan. I know YL's get alot of good reviews, and they would probably be fine for your situation, but I switched out my YL Mediums for some Deltas that were 3db higher and 10cfm higher and it dropped my temps by about 8c at full load. They push not only more air, but more pressure.

[ChanceCoats123]

I suppose since two people have told me good things, I might as well get the primoflex tubing bad suggested. I think I will stay with Yateloons because although I do want good performance I doubt my 95 watt (stock, not oc'ed) cpu will even challenge an MCR320 with an apogee GTZ.

[baditude_df]

Good choices. I think you're set.

[doz]

HAHA.. You spoke of a stock CPU with watercooling...

Come back and talk to us a month after you install it all, let us know where you are at :)

[Diggrr]

Now be nice...I don't overclock and I've watercooled forever. Almost done with the current build.
He does OC btw, but only had his stock wattage to post.

[doz]

Wow diggrr, thats amazing! I must say lol. I dont know how you resist :D

[ChanceCoats123]

Hahaha yes. I don't actually know how many watts I pull with my current oc' but I am sure it is probably <120. But once I get this setup, I will definately be pushing it much farther! Thanks for all the help guys!

[Parad0x420]

did you see THIS (http://www.petrastechshop.com/ptsulracomce.html)? MCR320 with any of the speed Yates on it already.. Dunno if this is cheaper than buying the fans separately. Good luck on your build, I intend to follow it. :)

[Diggrr]

Wow diggrr, thats amazing! I must say lol. I dont know how you resist :D

I don't game at all. I guess the hardest thing I've thrown at this rig is a couple runs of Super Pi, cropping a few photos and encoding mp3's. I can't even hit 65C with the stock cooler that's on my E8400 right now!

A dual core with 4 gigs is probably twice what I actually need!, but I'm addicted to the water!
Maybe I should try to see what this Intel board can do? hehehehe :D

[Spawn-Inc]

i use masterkleer and love it, it's been working great for 6 months now and hsan't clouded. it's nice and soft and can do decently tight bends. and the pricing is the best part, at jabtech anyway.

10 feet for $4.90

[jr1]

i.m too using masterkleer tubing and i like it too
it's going on the 4th month here now without clouding
other than that spawn ink sums it up good

[doz]

I had a semi tight bend (its actually the lower u-bend in my picture in the other thread that goes from my res to pump). Ive had this tubing for awhile now (longer than my MK) and it hasnt bent. The MK even with coils kinked :( Primochill is handling it just fine!

[ChanceCoats123]

I will probably do the Primo just for the color. Spice it up a bit! :D

[ChanceCoats123]

Okay, so I was looking around today, and on jab-tech I noticed the D-Tek Fuzion V2. came with all the mounting hardward and was cheaper than the Apogee GTZ to begin with (roung $11-12 savings total) so i was was wondering which was a better performing block? I saw on the Apogee GTZ page that the tests said it was better than the fuzion by about 1* every time, but I wanted to hear from people who use them everyday and see some other tests.

[hokiealumnus]

They're actually very comparable blocks. Per Martin: "duplicates and ties the very well regarded D-Tek Fuzion V2". Here is his full review (http://martin.skinneelabs.com/Swiftech_Apogee_GTZ_Review.html). It's basically a wash between the two. The main difference is that the mounting mechanism (Swiftech wins) and the restriction (Fuzion v.2 is less restrictive), but even that isn't anything to worry about.

[baditude_df]

In my own personal testing I found the V2(my favorite 775 block) was noticeably inferior to the GTZ and the EK Supreme on socket 1366. I really have no other choice but to attribute this to the intentionally convex surfaces of the GTZ and EK, since this is the only difference between setups in the time the three blocks were tested. In my experience, the tie was between the GTZ and the EK Supreme and not the V2. As a result of that, I would never recommend the V2 over the GTZ for 1366 purposes, regardless of price difference.

[hokiealumnus]

In my own personal testing I found the V2(my favorite 775 block) was noticeably inferior to the GTZ and the EK Supreme on socket 1366. I really have no other choice but to attribute this to the intentionally convex surfaces of the GTZ and EK, since this is the only difference between setups in the time the three blocks were tested. In my experience, the tie was between the GTZ and the EK Supreme and not the V2. As a result of that, I would never recommend the V2 over the GTZ for 1366 purposes, regardless of price difference.
I'd listen to baditude...the tests Martin did were on older S775 chips and apparently do not transfer to the newer furnaces that are i7s.

[nzaneb]

HAHA.. You spoke of a stock CPU with watercooling...

Come back and talk to us a month after you install it all, let us know where you are at :)


He simply meant that his chip only has a 95W TDP stock, not that he runs it at stock speed or voltage :)

Good to see you moving into water Chance! I'm pretty happy with the way the GTZ works with the I7, and I can only imagine how well it would cool my 720. I don't have personal experience with the V2, but I would assume (yeah I know) that the difference would be negligible for your 720 BE. The IHS on my 720 is surprisingly flat (not sure about yours) and should work well with any newer block. Baditude obviously has had experience with both, so I would hold his opinion the highest.

[baditude_df]

The only reason I even tried the V2 on my i7 was that when I first started WC'ing it with the EK Supreme, the temperatures were so bloody high. I then proceeded to do flatness testing with Dye and Razorblades and found that the IHS was as flat as they come and that the Block base was bowed. I knew that the V2 had a perfectly flat base so I immediately ordered an i7 mounting kit for my V2 and slapped it on thinking that both flat bases would make better contact and I would see a significant decrease in overall CPU temperature. I couldn't have been more wrong, and it turns out I was just getting a demonstration in what we all know now: That the i7's just run way friggin hotter than a 45nm Penryn or Conroe. I then decided to order a GTZ instead of putting the EK back on, just to see if it would perform any better than the other two and turned out to perform the same within a degree or two as the EK after an hour of Prime Small ffts.

[pinkles]

Yeah, I have the gtz for my q6600. I saw like 12 degree drop instantly! i was like woah! :)

[ChanceCoats123]

Okay, I will stay with the gtz then, even with the price, I will have better temps and then the block could be transferable later. Thanks for the quick responses and tips ( and the kind words nzaneb)!