Questions about using multiple radiators in a watercooling setup

[scorchingice]

Ok First and foremost I wish to follow the rules of this forum (yes I read the rules !!) and since it is my FIRST Post, Here goes.

The Reason I wish to water cool is because it is the most effective way to reduce my computers temperatures and because secretly it's just so damn sexy.

My Budget. Ok well I am not "Hard up" for money, but I do not waste it either. I want the "Best bang for the buck" If something will give me a 2% increase in performance but costs 2x what the other item will cost, No thanks, Ill take the 2% decrease for performance vs price.

Tools and proficiency, I can modify a case with Welding if needed. I have a custom Cosmos 1000 case with a display showing all temps that I put inside the top front bezel. So modifications are not an issue.

Next item (Read previous statement) Yes I am more than willing to chop it up.

Computer specs at the end of the post:

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Now for my post...

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I am in an environment that is NOT Hot in the Summer, it is OUTRAGEOUSLY Hot, So there is no doubt I need to water cool. I bought a Really Sweet 8800 GTX cooler and it works great, but now with windows 7 I actually feel the heat from my computer on my legs and it makes my legs sweat (that is not an exaggeration) My computer runs that hot and has really good air cooling (6 scythe ultra kaze fans inside the cosmos 1000 case 4 intake 2 out take) ALL running at 110.31 CFM (Full power I don't even bother with a speed controller) Anyhow I used to be fine for CPU temps with over clocking, but with Windows 7 I had to throttle back to stock speeds to keep it under 70 Celsius core and 78 Celsius core temps. I used to be at 50 CPU and 58c core temps about in Vista 64 but this new OS is killing my temps. And this is with a ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED after market cooler (See below).

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Anyhow I am going Water, I am tired of the noise and tired of wondering (What if I just went ahead and did water cooling).

My Question is I am considering 2 radiators, a 3 x 120mm for the main and a 1 x 120 mm OR 2 x 92mm Radiator as the extra/backup.

Is the 1 x 120 / 2 x 92 going to help? What are the plusses and minuses of adding an extra radiator, Will it help, Will it harm, Will it be a waste of space...

Eventually I will have my CPU / GPU / North/south chip sets on the cooling line, but at the start it will only be the CPU, then eventually the GPU. I am not sure of whether to even bother with the northbridge/southbridge chip sets at all, and memory has heat sinks so they are fine (Hell when I started building PC's heat sinks were not even used on the CPU's) ha ha.

Anyhow opinions please (And if you are going to suggest other items to buy PLEASE only do so if you can back it up with comparison/review links or Honest Real use information. I don't want any "Don't buy that, use this, it's so Ubber and L33T replies... Thank you very much...)

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This is the Setup I am thinking of buying...

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Laing D5 Vario/Swiftech MCP655 Inline 12V DC Pump
http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcin12pu.html

PTS Ultimate Radiator Combo: MCR320-QP Edition
http://www.petrastechshop.com/ptsulracomce.html

Swiftech MCR-120 "Quiet Power" Series Radiator (Using one of my Scythe Fans)
http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcqposerab2.html

D-TEK FuZion v2 LGA775 CPU Waterblock
http://www.petrastechshop.com/dfuv2lgcpuwa.html

Swiftech MCRES-MICRO Rev2 Reservoir
http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcmirere.html

All the items will be using 1/2" Barbs, 1/2 inch Tubing, etc.

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Opinions on the use of the Second Radiator. Is it needed? Will it help? Is it too much? MOST OF ALL, Will it cause harm by restricting water flow? Thanks in advance (The single fan is the 2nd radiator of course)

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End of Post...

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My Computer Specs:

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Motherboard: Evga nForce 780i SLI
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188024

CPU: Intel e6850 Conroe (Yes Conroe matters *Or at least it used to until all this new stuff came out*)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028

Memory: CORSAIR XMS2 4GB (2 sets for a total of 8 gig)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145176

Main Gaming Hard Drive: Western Digital Raptor 150Gig
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136012

Secondary Hard Drive (For storage): Seagate Barracuda 500GB 7200 RPM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148395

Computer Power Supply: COOLER MASTER Real Power Pro 750w
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171024

Computer Case : (Custom Modified) COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119138

Video Card : EVGA GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB (With Aftermarket Cooler)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130072

(AFTERMARKET COOLER) : ARCTIC COOLING ACCEL X8800 Fluid Dynamic VGA Cooler
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186026

Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Pro 7.1
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102005

CPU Aftermarket Cooler: ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118019

And my Highlight is my Custom Case mounted Display for temps and other system info (Works with XP, Vista, and Windows 7 (32bit and 64bit)

nMEDIAPC PRO-LCD Media Center Programmable LCD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811996003

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6451/customcosmos.jpg

ok i am not including my Blue Ray Drive, DVD Writer, Keyboard, Mouse, speakers

[Albaholic]

First of all :welcome: to the forums.

Are you going to be overclocking at all? If not, I think you might just fine running everything off of the 120.3 rad. If you are going to be OC'ing, I don't think that single 120 rad will be of much use and not worth hassle of adding it in unless you already have it on hand just want to use it. You can WC the NB if you want, but don't bother with the southbridge or your ram.

[scorchingice]

Sorry if that was unclear. YES I do over clock. I try to run my CPU and GPU at the highest speeds I can get without causing problems. so YES I will over clock my system as much as I can. My problem now is that with Air cooling and Windows 7 Release Candidate 64 bit my PC goes up to the 80+ Celsius range when over clocked so I had to stop. It was causing too much heat and causing my PC to crash.

I want to start over clocking again, But without a new cooling system, I don't see how I can while running Windows 7 RC 64bit.

Windows 7 literally made my temps jump 15 degrees Celsius. It is unreal. I am not trying to troubleshoot my system. I am pretty sure that is not the issue. I just want info on the water cooling system. Will the second Radiator help me in this setup, or will it be a waste/harm me.

By the way, I plan on using the 120 x 3 Radiator for sure, That will be the main radiator in the system.

The 120 x 1 is the one I am debating whether or not I need. Will adding this Radiator in the line help me or hurt me, or make no difference at all?


Thanks. Scorchingice

[ascl]

I know you said you are not trying to troubleshoot your system... but!

I think you need to investigate why your temps jumped up. Win7 should not cause temp changes, the CPU load isn't changed (significantly anyway) by changing OS, especially between Vista and Win7. If anything Win7 should be a slightly lighter load.

If you still have a vista install, compare the temps running prime95 under both OS's. You may have a process spinning and chewing up CPU time in Win7 that is causing extra heat. If not, you might have dust, or a dead fan or something.

Regarding the extra rad, I'll leave the more experienced WC folks answer that. Oh, and welcome to the forums!

[scorchingice]

The Reasons I am not trying to troubleshoot the system is as follows:

#1 I just noticed 3 of my Scythe Fans stopped working. (Ok yes this is a major factor)

#2 It is summertime so it is at the hottest time of the year here. Plus this year has been exceptionaly hot.

#3 I am pretending in my computer gaming Fantasy mind that Windows 7 is so Magical that it uses parts of my CPU and GPU that were until now unused and is causing the extra heat (Yes dumb but hey We can dream can't we.)

#4 I decided to switch to watercooling rather than just replace the 3 fans that went dead after a year and decided to blame installing a fresh copy of Windows 7 as the "Scapegoat" (Enough said).


All that said, I don't want to to troubleshoot my system, I just want opinions on the plans for my watercooling setup AND opinions and honest info on the second radiator.

"Is the second radiator going to hurt the system or will it do nothing unless heat rises a Lot and then work or etc?" Is it nice to have in the loop as a "Just in case" or is it going to hurt the system by being a "Flow restrictor" ?

Oh and ok you can tell me opinions on the parts I have decided to order. I have NOT ordered yet so if anything stands out as a "that is not a good product" warn me please... I hate buying junk as much as the next person.

This being said... Please note:

I have space in my Cosmos 1000 case to put a 3 x 120 Radiator up top, I also have a place I could put a 1 x 120 or 2 x 92mm Radiator at the bottom. My concerns are will the extra radiator (the 1 x 120mm or 2 x 92mm) help me any being in the line or will having it there cause restrictions that will actually harm performance? If need be I could knock out 3 hard drive bays that would allow me to put in a 2 x 120mm radiator, but I do not want to do that UNLESS i have to as I can fit a 2 x 92mm radiator in there just fine as it is.

THE MAIN QUESTIONS I AM ASKING ARE :

#1 Will adding this "Extra Radiator" help or hurt the performance?

#2 If it will help, Where should I run the second radiator in the loop. (NOTE) Please give examples of CPU Only Watercooling and CPU + GPU Watercooling Setup as eventualy I will be Watercooling BOTH the CPU and GPU. Would it be idea to use the 3x radiator for the CPU and the 1 x 120 for the GPU, etc. *EXAMPLES* Please.

Yes I am trying to think of everything so be descriptive.

By Descriptive I mean Where to put the Y adapters, when to merge the flow back to the resovoir, etc. Almost like a nice schematic/blueprint. Words, Pictures, etc... Whichever you prefer, I am as adaptive as my wife has been these past 12 years :)


Thank you..

Scorchingice ... Aka Brian

[ascl]

Haha, I like it. Fair enough, we all need our justification to upgrade :)

[BobbyBubblehead]

parts list are tried and tested stuff, sure a D5 wont have any problems getting round that loop.

maybe a high end 320rad would be better than a single?
anyone throw any light on that...

as you say no parts bought yet so hang back and see what the real experts think...

Oh and :welcome: to the Forums

[scorchingice]

maybe a high end 320rad would be better than a single?
Sorry, I AM new to the forums afterall, but the radiator I linked is 1 single radiator using 3 fans along with a seperate single 120 mm radiator. (That is 2 different radiators BOTH being installed) I am not trying to find out which is better, the 3 fan is obvisously the winner there.

Maybe saying 3x120 is confusing people? Open the links please you will see the radiator I am looking at :

http://www.petrastechshop.com/ptsulracomce.html

WHICH in effect is this radiator with 3 addon fans :
http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcqposerab1.html

So I am really confused what you mean by:
"maybe a high end 320rad would be better than a single?
anyone throw any light on that..."

Is 3 x 120 saying it wrong? should I be saying a 320 ?


NOTE -=- PLEASE -=- NOTE

I have not bought ANY of these watercooling items. I am not trying to add the single radiator to this system, I am trying to buy a whole new system from scratch. I am trying to find out if I should buy 2 radiators or just the one. Call this proper planning, anyhow please help me decide what to buy BEFORE I buy. thanks..

Scorchingice

[deadlyapollo]

If you are just cooling the CPU, That MCR 320 Rad will be more than enough for it. As far as the 120 Rad, I think it would be more restrictive than helpful.

Some people like to cool the northbridge, but for me, its a waste of money. I own a gigabyte UD4H and it has that silent pipe cooler on it that works wonderfully well. So it depends on how well your NB cooler works.

Welcome to the forums, and good luck with your water cooling loop. Remember to plan and take your time to prevent leaks!

[ascl]

Maybe saying 3x120 is confusing people?

Nope, what you are saying is fine. Perfectly understandable.

maybe a high end 320rad would be better than a single?


I am pretty sure he means, perhaps you would be better off getting a high end 120x3 rad rather than a swiftech 320 + a 120x1. Swiftech rads are not the best performers (not that they are bad by any stretch of the imagination. They have a really good price/performance ratio).

[hokiealumnus]

Adding a second radiator won't hurt anything. The pump you are planning on getting will be more than enough to handle it. It should help temps somewhat; not earth shattering amounts, but better than just the one.

Re: Y-connectors - it's not generally a good idea to run a parallel loop. This is due to differing restrictions in different blocks, which will starve one and give the other an excess of fluid. Run everything in series and you'll be fine. Since you asked, here is how I'd run the loop, with and without the additional radiator. (Note that this is just personal preference; loop order is largely irrelevant with the one exception of having the reservoir immediately before the pump so that it's always supplied with liquid.)

With 2nd Rad: Res > Pump > 120.3 > CPU block > 92.2/120.1 > GPU block > Back to the Res.

Without it, just remove the 2nd rad from the flow chart and leave the rest the same.

Since you're just starting out, if you fancy some additional reading and you haven't come across it, have a gander through my water cooling guide for beginners (http://gilgameshreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75%3Ahokiealumnus&catid=40%3Aoverclocking-and-cooling&Itemid=86). You've already done a great job learning the basics, but it never hurts to read up some more. There is also Conumdrum's signature post for beginners (http://www.ocforums.com/showpost.php?p=6165926&postcount=10) with lots of additional resources.

Lastly, welcome to OCF and thank you for your well thought out and researched first post. Commendable all around.

[hokiealumnus]

I am pretty sure he means, perhaps you would be better off getting a high end 120x3 rad rather than a swiftech 320 + a 120x1. Swiftech rads are not the best performers (not that they are bad by any stretch of the imagination. They have a really good price/performance ratio).
With this in mind:
My Budget. Ok well I am not "Hard up" for money, but I do not waste it either. I want the "Best bang for the buck" If something will give me a 2% increase in performance but costs 2x what the other item will cost, No thanks, Ill take the 2% decrease for performance vs price.
...he should stick with Swiftech. They're exactly what is being asked for...best bang for the buck. Yes, there are better, but unless you want to squeeze a few extra degrees out of a system and don't care how much you have to spend, Swiftech is just fine.

[scorchingice]

One very important thing to keep in mind - It's going to be difficult to use the radiator you're planning on using as it's intended in the location you plan on mounting it. To use the swiftech res-rad, it should really be mounted vertically with the res section at the top. It seems theoretically possible to fill the system by holding the radiator upright and, after you've filled and bled it completely, you could then mount it where you are planning. That would be a pain though.

Basically, I'm saying it's impractical to use the res-rad in your situation. So, you're left with two options: Reservoir or T-line. Reservoirs fill and bleed the system more easily than a T-line, but if you're cramped for space (which you shouldn't be in a Cosmos 1000), they're good as well. If you fancy a different pump, you can kill two birds with one stone and use the MCP-355 + XSPC Res-Top. I absolutely love mine and couldn't imagine a more user-friendly fill/bleed setup.

I had planned on purchasing a reservoir with the system. I linked the one I was going to use (The Swiftech MCRES-MICRO Rev2 Reservoir - http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcmirere.html)

I was going to use this as the bleeding system.

I planned to mount the radiator at the Top of the Cosmos case as I already have the slot drilled out and the sheet metal area removed for the application. (I already had 3 120mm fans up top for air flow) The radiator WILL be mounted in a horizontal mode but with proper technique and time I am sure I can remove any air bubbles that come up using the high flow pump and the reservoir Which I will have mounted in an accessible area. Any "Bleeding" will be done with the reservoir and I am sure I will be asking later what the best position to have the reservoir will be. Higher than all other components, Lower than all them, etc. :eek:

ALSO: You say this radiator will have a hard time mounting it in the location. Are there radiators that work better in this application ?
The location will be horizontal, up top above the pump and all devices.


anyhow THANK YOU for the replies.

Again I have the space for the 1 x 120mm Radiator So I do not mind putting it in, I just do not want it "Hindering" the performance.

Thanks again,
Scorchingice

[hokiealumnus]

Very sorry...I completely mis-read your OP. Forgive my stupidity...I've edited that part out. Don't know where it came from. I blame it on being at work and trying to procrastinate...karma is coming after me!

[scorchingice]

Very sorry...I completely mis-read your OP. Forgive my stupidity...I've edited that part out. Don't know where it came from. I blame it on being at work and trying to procrastinate...karma is coming after me!

That's ok. I do that a lot myself. Anyhow...

Can you answer the edit I put in about the radiator mounting location after you already made this post :) ?



ALSO: You say this radiator will have a hard time mounting it in the location. Are there radiators that work better in this application ?
The location will be horizontal, up top above the pump and all devices.

[hokiealumnus]

Yea, you can completely disregard that part of my post. Mounting your rad in the top of the case is perfect for your case and application. It may require a bit of modding, but you know that and have plenty of experience doing so.

The only reason I mentioned it might be tough is that I was under the (admittedly ridiculous) impression you were using the MCR320-QP-RES, which has a reservoir built in and typically is the only reservoir in the system. Since that is out of the equation, proceed with your original plan with no reservations!

[scorchingice]

thank you hokiealumnus (BTW, I have been to Raleigh before, Quite a few times actually as I passed through to get to Jacksonville, Er should I say Camp LeJeune) :) Semper Fi !!

[thorilan]

The Reason I wish to water cool is because it is the most effective way to reduce my computers temperatures and because secretly it's just so damn sexy.

much nicer post .

but i want to ask something.

why do you want to lower your temps.

in the end your computer does not care if it runs at 50 load or 55 load .

so lower temps mean nothing really.
its about what you do with your computer that requires lower temps.
is it to make your computer go faster on one side of the spectrum or is it to run the same speed quieter on the other side or is it a hybrid of the two somewhere in the middle?
it cant be just to make a lower number or you will soon end up spending a lot of money with no clear reason and feeling disappointed because you can always go lower.

and yes it can be sexy and that in it self can be reason enough.


the very first thing i would do is really think about your acceptable noise threshold and compare it to your performance goals and see where you sit.

that will give you a good starting point and some general direction for how much pump and rad you need.

[BobbyBubblehead]

I am pretty sure he means, perhaps you would be better off getting a high end 120x3 rad rather than a swiftech 320 + a 120x1. Swiftech rads are not the best performers (not that they are bad by any stretch of the imagination. They have a really good price/performance ratio).

thanks for clearing that up :)

or is there any point in the second small rad anyhow, was my thinking.

(there may be a place for it but is there a purpose?)

[scorchingice]

much nicer post .

but i want to ask something.

why do you want to lower your temps.

in the end your computer does not care if it runs at 50 load or 55 load .

so lower temps mean nothing really.
its about what you do with your computer that requires lower temps.
is it to make your computer go faster on one side of the spectrum or is it to run the same speed quieter on the other side or is it a hybrid of the two somewhere in the middle?
it cant be just to make a lower number or you will soon end up spending a lot of money with no clear reason and feeling disappointed because you can always go lower.

and yes it can be sexy and that in it self can be reason enough.


the very first thing i would do is really think about your acceptable noise threshold and compare it to your performance goals and see where you sit.

that will give you a good starting point and some general direction for how much pump and rad you need.

Well being great looking is a good factor, but honestly Right now my PC at idle is running so hot I sweat when I am near it. it gives off that much heat. so I need to find a way to get rid of that. It only started this since the 3 Scythe fans went out and I installed Windows 7. Plus I cant overclock at all now. I need to cool this machine down again so I can take control and run it how I want. As fast as it will go.


(there may be a place for it but is there a purpose?)

That my friend was the whole purpose of this post.

[hokiealumnus]

Just so we're clear re: purpose... Your system will still be producing and expelling the same amount of heat it is right now. The main difference is that it will be coming out of the radiator instead of your current Zalman. While it can cool your components better, leading to your being able to overclock again, it will not reduce the amount of heat you feel coming from your PC, which will remain the same.

[thorilan]

hok is right about the heat. the thing you want to consider then is ... do you want ot make such a large investment when 3 fans and possibly a rheo could fix the problem . if you still want to based on cool factor ( no pun intended) then you may consider a much simpler design that only needs 1 rad . if you REALLY want to OC you will still need to determine how much noise you can withstand.
it gets to the point of diminished returns quickly (personally i dont like my ears to bleed)

so if you can get it done with 1 rad and a quiet pump and still maintain your happyness ratio (ratio of rock solid OC to noise level X bank account recovery ability score) then it is definately for you.