Building a home theater

[buffheman]

I just bought a new place, and am looking to use some of my homebuyer's tax credit to get a sweet home theater setup. I've been into stores and listened to some Klipsch, B&W, and Monitor speakers... it's so hard to decide. I'm looking for versatile speakers for both hi-fi and home theater uses. I was originally planning on getting some floorstanders, but one guy at a shop suggested I keep satellite/sub options open as well, as I could easily move them to my rear speakers later when I do another upgrade.

Anyway, my price range is like $1000-$1500 either for a pair of floorstanders or a pair of satellites + sub. So far, I liked the Klipsch the most for music... I like the bright sound, but I wonder how well that would fair with movies. I haven't tried. B&W sounded a little deeper, with the Monitors taking a middle of the road. Trouble is, I did this like 2 months ago and don't remember any of the models... I think the Klipsch were the RF-82.

Can anyone recommend a few models across brands in those ranges for me to go listen to? I'm certainly willing to buy used as well if the models are discontinued. Efficiency might also be an issue, as my receiver is kind of a cheap Sony. I lost the instruction manual, so I haven't looked up how much power it puts out, but it's probably not ideal. I could always upgrade that too, if I find a speaker I really love that needs more power than I have.

[ratbuddy]

I went with Paradigms, and love em. 96db in room/93db anechoic, really easy to drive.

They have a whole range of stuff. You could even get midrange floorstanders+sub for under $1500, or 4 (large) satellites for $800, and have enough left over for a center and sub. Really, when running a sub, there isn't much need for floorstanding fronts, unless you don't like to use a sub with your 2 channel music.

Anyway, see if they have a dealer around you.

[buffheman]

I'm not really a huge fan of subwoofers for music... I don't think I'd upgrade my cruddy sub if I got floorstanders, and would probably only turn it on for movies, if even, depending on the bass performance I get out of the speakers.

I'll look into the Paradigms, thanks.

[EarthDog]

Sub(s) are an absolutle necessisty with "bookshelf" speakers IMHO. You are missing an entire octave or more with some music with say a 4" 'woofer'.

But I agree. Paradigms sound great and look good as well. They may not carry the B&W prestige but damn they sound just as good to me.

[pinky33]

buffheman I am with you when it comes to no woofer for listing to music. I can go on for a while about my different speaker set ups and how I use each one for different things, but I just want to tell you one thing. If you do set something up for home theater you will want a woofer, it really helps with movies.....if your into movies like I am. Well if you also want to listen to music you will not want a woofer as it is impossible to tune a woofer perfectly for accurate music in what I would call hi-fi (clean tight accurate bass). This will be making you change the options on your receiver every time you change from music to movies (turning off and on your woofer selection). I did this for 2 years and still do it every so often. I am always changing speakers out and trying new things. Sorry to ramble so much, just wanted you to think about that. In the future I hope to build new front speakers that allow as much bass as possible so that I am not tempted to keep using my woofers. I usually hook my woofers back up because it really does sound better since the woofers fill a range I don't normally hear with my front speakers, but what my speakers do produce sounds so much better.

If you want earth shaking explosions for movies you need a woofer. If you want tight clean clear bass then get the best 2 front speakers you can. I am a huge fan of klipsch and would recommend getting the best you can from them. I have not listened to any of there new stuff as I really just build my own speakers now. I loved there vintage speakers and a few of there models I heard 2-3 years ago.

Also quick advice on your surround speakers. They are there for effect, not so much to produce sound. I hope that makes sense. They do not need to be as powerful. I try tell myself "just use surround speakers that are of a same sound quality as my fronts, but much smaller and much much cheaper".

If you have any questions specific or not please do not hesitate to ask.


Other things to keep in mind. The room your speakers are in make a difference. Don't want to get speakers to big. If you tell me your room dimensions I can help more. Is this in your basement? What are the surrounding walls made of? what receiver are you using? Length of wire that will be ran? Not sure how hardcore you are on getting this sounding amazing or good or just setting it up and learning as you go.


Got woofer? Each one is 2x2x2 feet

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/pinkfloyd33/DSCN2281.jpg

[rainless]

Sigh... I thought you were talking about actually BUILDING a home theater system...

That's what *I* was thinking about doing.

I recently had to take my multi-component Sony system apart and put it together again.

It got me thinking I could just switch out the amp... change a coupla circuit boards and BAM!

[Sir Barton]

Buy used speakers.....new ones arent worth it no matter how much the discount, because theyre always cheaper used. I, like you, love the Klipsch sound. I have 2 pair of Klipsches. My advice is to get some vintage Klipsch floorstanders, they blow away any of the Chinese made Reference and Synergy line they put out today. I have a pair of Fortes and wouldnt trade them for anything. The Fortes new were $1200 each in 1985, I picked up a mint pair for $200 and built new crossovers for them. Normally a nice pair of Fortes goes for $500 to $1000 depending on condition and where you look. Models to look for, Cornwalls, Forte, Forte II, Chorus, Chorus II, Belle, La Scala, Quartet...and if youre very lucky, you may stumble upon a pair of Klipschorns for under $1000. Klipschorns always were and always will be the top of the Klipsch line.

[pinky33]

Sir Barton: my friends dad has a pair of Fortes. In fact they are the ones that have a larger woofer in the rear, does this mean they are the Fortes II? I ask him if he is selling them every time I see him. He is the original owner. I bought a pioneer sx- 828 from him for $20 with original box and receipt, hehe.

[EarthDog]

buffheman I am with you when it comes to no woofer for listing to music. I can go on for a while about my different speaker set ups and how I use each one for different things, but I just want to tell you one thing. If you do set something up for home theater you will want a woofer, it really helps with movies.....if your into movies like I am. Well if you also want to listen to music you will not want a woofer as it is impossible to tune a woofer perfectly for accurate music in what I would call hi-fi (clean tight accurate bass). This will be making you change the options on your receiver every time you change from music to movies (turning off and on your woofer selection). I did this for 2 years and still do it every so often. I am always changing speakers out and trying new things. Sorry to ramble so much, just wanted you to think about that. In the future I hope to build new front speakers that allow as much bass as possible so that I am not tempted to keep using my woofers. I usually hook my woofers back up because it really does sound better since the woofers fill a range I don't normally hear with my front speakers, but what my speakers do produce sounds so much better. If you have floor standing speakers with AT LEAST an 8" woofer, you will be fine without a sub but not optimal IMHO. With bookshelf speakers though, even with a 6" woofer most of those cant even hit 50-60Hz and you need to be in the 30Hz range for movies and even a lot of music.

Also quick advice on your surround speakers. They are there for effect, not so much to produce sound. I hope that makes sense. They do not need to be as powerful. I try tell myself "just use surround speakers that are of a same sound quality as my fronts, but much smaller and much much cheaper". It depends on what is driving them. For example, My receiver is 120Wx7. Although they are for effect, the transients and power requirements are still the same. You do not want to have speakers that can handle less than your amplifier wattage.

They items you want to match are your Front L and R and Center. The timbre should match so its a seemless transition across the 'stage'.

[Sir Barton]

Sir Barton: my friends dad has a pair of Fortes. In fact they are the ones that have a larger woofer in the rear, does this mean they are the Fortes II? I ask him if he is selling them every time I see him. He is the original owner. I bought a pioneer sx- 828 from him for $20 with original box and receipt, hehe.

No, the "woofer" on the back of the Fortes is a passive radiator. It looks like a woofer, but it has no juice going to it. The Fortes are a bass reflex speaker, instead of a port like most bass reflex designs, they use a passive radiator. The main differences between the Fortes and Forte IIs are the mid horn used and the passive radiator. The Forte uses a 12" passive and an exponential horn, whereas the Forte II uses a 15" passive and a Tactrix horn. Either way you go, youre going to want to replace the crossovers, because after 20 years, the values of the components drift considerably. If you decide to pick up a pair of vintage Klipsch, go to www.critesspeakers.com and pick up a pair or new crossovers, theyre WELL worth the money. Crites crossovers and titanium diaphragms really opened up an already great sounding speaker. In all honesty, how much does surround really matter? Ive had surround setups, and to me, the money spent will always get you 2 superior speakers for the price of 5 mediocre ones. For $1500, you could get a good tube amp, a nice pair of Klipsches, and brand new crossovers. Klipsch and tubes are an excellent sound. A decent tube amp will smooth out the sound considerably, and bring out more detail to boot. Theres plenty of ways you can go. Ive found that my Fortes alone, when playing movies put out lots of good bass...enough that I dont need a subwoofer.

[pinky33]

Oh snap, that means my friends dad has the Fortes II. I am pretty sure it has the 15" rear passive radiator. Now I have to find a way to get them from him, lol. He is the original owner, but as of late he never uses them. they are just hanging out in a finished basement.

[pinky33]

buffheman Do you mind telling us what you ended up getting.

[buffheman]

Nothing yet... still shopping around. I came really close to buying some Klipsch RF-82, they were only $600 for an open-box pair. One had some scuffs, the other was in the original packaging still. I still might go back and get those, it's such a good deal.

But I've been looking around online for some older speakers like you guys seem to recommend. I also plan on listening to some more brands first... although from what I can tell so far, I really like the Klipsch sound. I don't know how I feel about looking for a pair of Fortes or Cornwalls just because you guys say they're good, since I can't listen to them myself. So I might veto the vintage speaker option...

[Sir Barton]

I don't know how I feel about looking for a pair of Fortes or Cornwalls just because you guys say they're good, since I can't listen to them myself. So I might veto the vintage speaker option...

If you like the sound of the Reference Klipsch speakers, then youll REALLY love the Heritage series. Simply put, theyre way better...not just for the money, but all around. Check Craigslist and see if folks are selling them. They almost always let you audition speakers before you buy them. When I bought my Fortes, the guy had em hooked to an old Sony bookshelf stereo...I gave them a listen and I was immediately hooked. I still highly suggest buying vintage Klipch, because even if you dont like the sound, youll atleast make your money back, or even turn a profit.

[buffheman]

Do vintage Klipsch speakers work well for movies as well? Or are they more music speakers? Someone told me the Reference series does well with both.


Sub question I just started considering... what do you guys know about SACD? I was looking around on amazon, seems like most of the stuff on SACD is just like Elton John and classical music, which is cool. Just don't know if it's worth getting one. Do you need like a real high end system to hear the difference? And 5.1 analog... I'd need a new expensive receiver. I probably need one anyway... this home audio stuff gets expensive.

[ratbuddy]

Do vintage Klipsch speakers work well for movies as well? Or are they more music speakers? Someone told me the Reference series does well with both.


Sub question I just started considering... what do you guys know about SACD? I was looking around on amazon, seems like most of the stuff on SACD is just like Elton John and classical music, which is cool. Just don't know if it's worth getting one. Do you need like a real high end system to hear the difference? And 5.1 analog... I'd need a new expensive receiver. I probably need one anyway... this home audio stuff gets expensive.

I have one of these little fellas http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/default.asp

It plays SACD in 2 channel just fine. Also stupid-good DVD picture quality.

[buffheman]

Ah it would appear the other article I read is outdated, and that SACD players are now capable of digital output. But it says in the wiki that through double-blind testing, no apparent difference in audio quality can be detected... maybe with the exception of someone with finely tuned ears and super high end equipment. I won't bother with it.


Anyway, I found some Klipsch KLF-20 on craigslist, how do those compare to the reference series?

[ratbuddy]

Ah it would appear the other article I read is outdated, and that SACD players are now capable of digital output. But it says in the wiki that through double-blind testing, no apparent difference in audio quality can be detected... maybe with the exception of someone with finely tuned ears and super high end equipment. I won't bother with it.

I don't think the double blind debate will ever be laid to rest. All it really tests is the listener, not the equipment.

[Sir Barton]

Do vintage Klipsch speakers work well for movies as well? Or are they more music speakers? Someone told me the Reference series does well with both.

Vintage are much better in every way. With my Fortes, the bass is deep enough that I dont need a sub, plus they fill the room way better. Lots of people building 5.0s (no need for a sub) out of Klipsch usually go Cornwalls for the fronts, a Heresy for the center, and Fortes or Heresys for the rears. Lots of value for the money there.

[buffheman]

So many options! I've done no work today and spent all my time on www.audiogon.com looking at speakers and receivers and stuff. I've got a growing interest in Def Tech speakers... both the Mythos line and Bipolar line. I might have to track those down and give them a listen... they're out of my budget, but I suppose I could extend it a little if I like them.

I'll try and track down some of the Heritage speakers and give 'em a listen. The only thing on craigslist right now are some La Scala II... and quite frankly I don't like the way they look. It would bother me. How do you feel about the new Heritage line, the Cornwall III and Heresy III? Also, looking at the old Forte specs, they only go down as far as 32hz, how do you not need a subwoofer with that?

[EarthDog]

Only? 32Hz is low and sufficient for use without a subwoofer really. Sure you are missing 30-20Hz but...its good enough for sure. I ran with Boston Acoustics 12's that went to 32Hz and they were just fine really.

[pinky33]

Like Sir Barton said, vintage klipsch sound better, period. I have listened to movies, played DDR (dance dance revolution), been to parties at my friends dads house all while listing to his Fortes II. Everything sounded great. I have heard better speakers, but not many and not at such a great price point. I would easily pay $500 for a used pair in excellent shape, then what ever it cost to rebuild the cross overs.

Also 32Hz is deep. My two woofers I posted are built for 30-80Hz and are set for 50Hz and under as my fronts can do 50hz and up just fine.

Only reason I have such large woofers is I love to shake the whole freaking house when explosions and the such happen in movies. For music they are nice, but unnecessary.


I am going to go to my local best buy and check out some new klipsch and see if they still amaze me as the classic klipsch I have heard in the past.

[Sir Barton]

How do you feel about the new Heritage line, the Cornwall III and Heresy III? Also, looking at the old Forte specs, they only go down as far as 32hz, how do you not need a subwoofer with that?
The new Heritage line are almost exactly the same as their vintage Heritage counterparts. Usually, youll find in the newer stuff, some exponential mid-horns found in the older models have been replaced by Tactrix horns on the newer ones, and the crossovers will be different. Overall cabinet design remains pretty much the same, with the main exception being the Cornwall -> Cornwall II transition. Out of the more affordable Klipsches, Cornwalls are the king. Theyre sort of a mix between the La Scala and Chorus, with the lush mids and highs of the La Scala and the chest pounding bass of the Chorus. If you bought La Scalas, youll definitely want a sub, as they only go down to about 58Hz. I think youre best off going with a pair of Corns for the fronts. I love my Fortes, but Corns are something to behold. If I found a pair for the right price Id be getting those and selling the Fortes real quick.