hwbot rev3

[I.M.O.G.]

Did you guys see this post on hwbot?

http://hwbot.org/article/news/how_to_survive_rev3_a_walkthrough_guide

It sounds like some interesting changes down the pike.

[Deanzo]

For many members here, it will be fine, or even very good for them.
As they only bench one card, or still run socket 775, and if they have moved to i7, it's a 920.


I'll try and not go off on too much of a rant, but I'm no fan. in fact you could say I hate it (trying my best not to rant)
The fact a Q6600 @ 4500mhz SPI score, scores like 20 boints, yet a WR done with 4 5870's on ln2 scores under 5 boints.
Sooo wrong.

[I.M.O.G.]

Hard to argue with your point. I'd say there are pluses and minuses.

Seeing their comments, that result makes sense for their stated goals:
It’s our aim to make overclocking as accessible as possible, which means that the financial aspect of it should be as low as possible.

I think it's good to make it possible for people running more normal configurations to stay competitive though also.

I think there will always be an audience for the world record holders, and they'll get their publicity regardless of if they get the points. Ensuring people running the popular hardware in more popular configurations get good boints is going to ensure hwbot caters to the widest audience, so I can understand their motivations.

Yet, the example you give looks silly. Not sure what the right answer would be. :shrug:

I wouldn't want to be in their shoes of calculating the correct balance - how do you reward world record benchmarkers, while not yielding such a great advantage to them that it alienates your larger audience? I've also seen considerable talk from the air/water benchers who have felt slighted by hwbot.

Not sure there is a perfect answer, but it would seem their heart is in the right place with trying to improve things.

[Deanzo]

It’s our aim to make overclocking as accessible as possible, which means that the financial aspect of it should be as low as possible


The above line is such a joke (well in my mind anyhow)

Now you get lots of points using hardware that everyone does.
ie: If you're after boints, kind of pointless to bench with a i7 975, you need to us a i7 920. That means all the i7 975 ln2 benchers will now use a i7 920, does that not make it even harder for the air/water i7 920 benchers to get boints. This works the same over all sockets.

Also, anyone that has been only using top of the line hardware ie 975's, X2's etc, will need to go out and buy a hell of alot of older hardware, spend even more on LN2 just to keep there rankings.
Sure looks like it will keep financial aspect down to me.

[I.M.O.G.]

Do the folks running the show welcome open feedback? I would think a solid core of benchers would echo your sentiment... You got me convinced.

I wonder why they don't divide categories along temperature guidelines... Seems that'd be critical to serving their stated goals.

[rdrash]

Already started buying up old gear myself...wife will be angry because my inventory is going up not down, thanks Hwbot.

they do have a thread at hwbot forums seeking comments...but from what I've seen it appears any opinions which run contrary to the whims of "administration's wishes" are quickly debunked and quashed.

We just have to live with the changes and adjust how we attack the bot... so yes for a short time the air benchers will see gains, but that won't last long as many extreme guys will adjust and take over those spots....

I still want big scores....darn the boints!! 4 card benching FTW!!! Cause I want to see how high the scores can be.... boints are now irrelevant in my case. Ofcourse I'll do some old gear benching to help my team total.

[Deanzo]

Temperature categories wouldn't work, cheaters would just lie. And post "air" scores when in fact it was done sub zero.

[icebob]

I'm with Dean on that, you see we spend a lot of money to bench the best and now they're telling me that the top notch hw won't worth the more boint???? nonsense to me how manufacturer's gonna react when AY ask them for celerons or Chew ask them for socket 939 cpu!!!

[I.M.O.G.]

Dean: People could lie with the current system also, in fact someone tried it recently in an attempt to prove the vulnerability of the system and was banned for life - read about it on www.madshrimps.com. Seems it would be somewhat obvious for any bencher worth his salt to recognize a submitted "air" entry that was done subzero. You could doctor the temperature readings, but that also would be hard to fake while fooling people.

No legit bencher would risk a lifetime ban from the bot.

EDIT: I'm not saying your wrong. If it was easy to do, they'd be doing it.

[Deanzo]

You only need to beat the best air score by 1mhz, and if the top 5 are all with in 10mhz of each other, no one could be sure.
Or you aim to be 3rd or 4th, easy to do on sub zero cooling, easy boints and no one would/could tell.
Thats why it wouldn't work.

[Deanzo]

Where abouts on that page is the link, I'd like to see what they said about James

[I.M.O.G.]

Your obviously right, which I figured you were. Seems if your submitting benches online that are time stamped, you could also submit temperature readings with a matching timestamp. Perhaps a custom hwbot version of coretemp, designed for tieing bench runs to their corresponding timestamps and temperatures.

Here's the article I read:
http://www.madshrimps.com/vbulletin/f22/cheater-caught-hwbot-s-msi-xtreme-speeder-contest-james-trevaskis-banned-68525/

[icebob]

I think it was just a good reason for Hwbot (read Massman) to get rid of James. He's probably one of the best ocers in the world but sometimes push the rules limit too far. Massman is probably sleeping with a smile right now!!!

[Gomeler]

No point in sorting results by temperature, there are chips that vary wildly in temperature range and cooling requirements.

Regarding the rev3 "cheaper for the common person" is a lie. We LN2/cascade benchers are just going to switch to popular hardware and post obscene scores meaning the common person is still going to be below the point curve.

[icebob]

No point in sorting results by temperature, there are chips that vary wildly in temperature range and cooling requirements.

Regarding the rev3 "cheaper for the common person" is a lie. We LN2/cascade benchers are just going to switch to popular hardware and post obscene scores meaning the common person is still going to be below the point curve.

+1 you have a plug for an Asus Commando, just got 10 celery that want to be cold!!!

[Xtreme Barton]

whats wrong with their site . i keep getting loadig errors when clicking on the link .. it sits and thinks about going to th page then craps out ... i have to refresh and refresh to finally get to it

[I.M.O.G.]

It was runnig slow earlier also, they're likely having network or server issues.

[rdrash]

the test server just went public...so naturally it's getting hammered by curious types.... I already know I got (won't bypass swear filter) erm...raked over the coals. No fear, I'll assemble the proper gear and kick buttocks properly per the 'new rules of engagement' to help my team regain the high ground

[I.M.O.G.]

hwbot is working fine for me, madshrimps get a new test server you mean?

[icebob]

So if I got it right we don't preorder anymore but shop in the classified!!!

[rdrash]

I was speaking about hwbot test server going public with rev 3 data.... thought that was what xtreme barton was referring too....my bad, once again I'm a dumby!

edit: @bob, classies and fleabay, junk stores, parents home computer you built for them 2 years ago with your excess...where ever you can find the "popular" junk ...gear

[EarthDog]

Interesting. Wow is more like it. I can see how this really hurts a lot of people, the hardcore people. This is amazing the about face the bot just took with its scoring. Sorry guys. Guess its time to tighten the belt and take it at a different angle!

[icebob]

just buil computers for all my brothers and sisters with all my "spares parts!" now I need to got the shoot back and ask them if they would prefer to have an E762 with 4 5870s and a GT instead???

[I.M.O.G.]

lol@bob

[icebob]

Was just looking at the first contest for January, cannot even find a G Force 4 on ebay!!! Guess the new rules goes by Massman stach!!!

[Deanzo]

Matt, do you have a link to the test server, hwbot is to slow to go looking for it.

[rdrash]

http://hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=43244&postcount=33

[icebob]

Holy shoot got screwed for 100 boints!!!

[Xtreme Barton]

anyway you could sen an email and snag some info off their site so we could have it here :D

[I.M.O.G.]

Can't knock the design job, looks great. Looks aren't everything tho. ;)

[EarthDog]

LOL, It would bump me up to 30.7 points from like 8...

[rdrash]

Just go with the flow and adjust your benching habits accordingly.... max hardware points remains capped. So get all those you can and continue to work on global boints.... what can you do :shrug: play the game that they put in front of you is all....

[Ross]

So what happens when you have quad or whatever running 1 or 2 cores for the bench? If that's still counting as a quad, I'm going E8600/P45 shopping tomorrow.

I still want big scores....darn the boints!! 4 card benching FTW!!! Cause I want to see how high the scores can be.... boints are now irrelevant in my case. Ofcourse I'll do some old gear benching to help my team total.You can keep benching 4 cards with big scores, just won't count as much for points. Doesn't make it any less impressive :beer:

I kind of see where they are going with it, but it won't make any difference because the good benchers will just lower their gear to midrange stuff and walk all over the masses that are already there.

@bob, the scores on the test site are not inclusive of stuff I submitted recently. Granted, you might have lost points under the new scoring anyway, but check that all your submissions are there first.

It's freaking hysterical though. toddm27 hasn't benched in like a year and went from #7 for OCF the current hwbot (214.6pts) to #2 on OCF in Rev3 (440.7pts) :rolleyes: Brilliant. That's because all the h/w he's benched on is ancient by now. So this is how to win on Rev3: stop benching NOW and in a year, you'll have double the points. Don't let your wife find out you can stop buying/benching AND go up in points :eek:

[icebob]

All my submissions are there, like I hae a 4 5870s score of 38K+ in vantage that place me about 30 something in the world they took the scores away cause I have a single card (4870) scores that place me to a higher rank.... I really don't see the point here...

[rdrash]

So what happens when you have quad or whatever running 1 or 2 cores for the bench? If that's still counting as a quad, I'm going E8600/P45 shopping tomorrow.

Not sure what happens....good question I'll have to see if I can find an answer as that is a very common tactic..... Edit: re-read most all the discussion (got bored of it), all the talk about CPUs was squashed everytime CPUs were brought up, to better focus on one problem at a time....


Don't let your wife find out you can stop buying/benching AND go up in points :eek:


rofl ( <---- we need a smilie for this)... no way in heck will I ever let my wife find out about this!!!

[Deanzo]

It's freaking hysterical though. toddm27 hasn't benched in like a year and went from #7 for OCF the current hwbot (214.6pts) to #2 on OCF in Rev3 (440.7pts) :rolleyes: Brilliant. That's because all the h/w he's benched on is ancient by now. So this is how to win on Rev3: stop benching NOW and in a year, you'll have double the points. Don't let your wife find out you can stop buying/benching AND go up in points :eek:

Thats Gold right there :beer:

[hokiealumnus]

Hahahaha... I don't even try for points. Just submit stuff for verification purposes. It's amusing I went from #360 (http://www.hwbot.org/community/user/hokiealumnus) in the US to #120 (http://94.225.192.196:8080/community/user/hokiealumnus?tab=profile), from a whopping 3 points to 76.6. Way to be HWbot; make the system better for the little people ..... until the big dogs re-up with lesser hardware. :rolleyes: Someone remind me why the normal HWBot is bad again?

[dejo]

Thats Gold right there :beer:

Gold for sure. why not just make the globals equal weight as the more populated classes. I would think the new rules would help me as I dont buy expensive video cards. but would rather see it be fair.
I cant expect to get the same points as someone with a 600 each vidoe cards and understand that. The new rules wont make it any easier for many to score points, and may make it harder

[I.M.O.G.]

hwbot is still the best system going, and even for all these complaints which are valid, I haven't seen anyone suggest a better solution. Other than not changing the rules, which were imperfect also.

[Gautam]

hwbot is still the best system going, and even for all these complaints which are valid, I haven't seen anyone suggest a better solution.
Finally, about time someone said this. Though, seeing as you've been dealing with possibly even more b__ching than the hwbot mods have lately, it's not a surprise that it'd be you. :)

[I.M.O.G.]

Heh, as someone whose also well aware that I don't have all the answers, I can empathize with their pain.

I'd like to think I do a better job at listening and making the necessary adjustments though.

[KonaKona]

I like the idea of some sort of special temperature monitoring program. If they could just find a way to verify temperatures then us AC peeps would be able to cash in on some tasty boints.

And yes I'm sure you would have people faking the sensor readings. :shrug:

[I.M.O.G.]

We'd have to ask The Coolest, but I would think coretemp could use some algorithmic method to create a unique key to be used as confirmation that the temp reading and screen is valid and not photoshopped. This would need some server side support, where the unique key as well as reading, screenshot, and timestamp could be posted for verification.

Seems that would go a long way towards combating faked/photoshopped temp readings.

If it could be done, and it would help tie benching runs to verifiable temp readings, seems it would be a step in the right direction. It'd allow hwbot to be more relevant to average benchmarkers, while also being able to compensate the most extreme folks fairly.

Or maybe I'm stuck on this whole temperature thing, and no one really cares.

[KonaKona]

We'd have to ask The Coolest, but I would think coretemp could use some algorithmic method to create a unique key to be used as confirmation that the temp reading and screen is valid and not photoshopped. This would need some server side support, where the unique key as well as reading, screenshot, and timestamp could be posted for verification.

Seems that would go a long way towards combating faked/photoshopped temp readings.

If it could be done, and it would help tie benching runs to verifiable temp readings, seems it would be a step in the right direction. It'd allow hwbot to be more relevant to average benchmarkers, while also being able to compensate the most extreme folks fairly.

Or maybe I'm stuck on this whole temperature thing, and no one really cares.

Don't worry man, I care. :grouphug:

Why not just abduct the guy that did the CPU-Z validation thing and just use that with temps? Same principle n' all.

[I.M.O.G.]

Don't worry man, I care. :grouphug:

Why not just abduct the guy that did the CPU-Z validation thing and just use that with temps? Same principle n' all.

Because the SDK license to use those tools is over 1000 euro apparently, which I just found out today. :shock:

I have a use for components of CPUZ functionality, but its cost prohibitive, so we'll need to consider other options.

http://www.cpuid-pro.com/pricing.php

[richba5tard]

For many members here, it will be fine, or even very good for them.
As they only bench one card, or still run socket 775, and if they have moved to i7, it's a 920.


I'll try and not go off on too much of a rant, but I'm no fan. in fact you could say I hate it (trying my best not to rant)
The fact a Q6600 @ 4500mhz SPI score, scores like 20 boints, yet a WR done with 4 5870's on ln2 scores under 5 boints.
Sooo wrong.

Well, I completely understand your point, but we took the decission anyway because of 2 major reasons:
- Anyone with enough cash and zero overclocking skills can got very high up in the rankings. wPrime was ruled by someone who ran it on a 64 core server at default settings and received 100 points. Do you think the rankings should be ruled by people who run at stock settings, but have lots of cash?
- hwbot rev3 is about competition, not purely the score you get. The 4x 5870's are not much points right now because there is not much competition in the 4xGPU rank, but points can only increase, as 1x and 2x GPU are already maxed out. 4x GPU will only increase in popularity, and in a year or so it will provide equal points as 1x and 2x GPU.

It is true that focus will shift from buying expensive hardware to expensive cooling, but IMHO that's correct. Using watercooling, dice, cascades or LN2 is what overclocking is all about. :)

By the way, if you have a TOP 20 world record, you will still be shown in the WORLD RECORD pages. So if you don't care about points you are unaffected.

Cool, my login from 2005 still works.

[Deanzo]

RB ?

Only time will tell, but if there are no real boints on offer, will it ever increase in popularity on the bot, 4 X 5870's that is.
Not that I really care about the boints for myself, but it does matter to me that I do my best for the team. And benching 4 cards on ln2 does little to help there, and it takes alot of skill to mod, and run a five pot setup.

Yes, stock scores taking top spot in wPrime is/was a joke, that always needed to be fixed.

[richba5tard]

RB ?
yep


Only time will tell, but if there are no real boints on offer, will it ever increase in popularity on the bot, 4 X 5870's that is.
Not that I really care about the boints for myself, but it does matter to me that I do my best for the team. And benching 4 cards on ln2 does little to help there, and it takes alot of skill to mod, and run a five pot setup.


I'm willing to bet on it that 4x GPU remains popular. :) If no one submits, it would mean it would be easy to get a top spot in a few weeks (new hardware released), which means an easy earned +- 50 points. That's enough motivation for plenty folks to try and get the top spot... and as more submit, the more points you will get for the 4x category.

I'm not going to pretend rev3 does not angry some top oc'ers, but change is needed to evolve. Plenty great overclockers where f****d in rev2.

[EarthDog]

Nice to see RB in OC.com!!! :)

[hokiealumnus]

- hwbot rev3 is about competition, not purely the score you get. The 4x 5870's are not much points right now because there is not much competition in the 4xGPU rank, but points can only increase, as 1x and 2x GPU are already maxed out. 4x GPU will only increase in popularity, and in a year or so it will provide equal points as 1x and 2x GPU.

This makes perfect sense. I can still understand those of you that are less than pleased with the change, but if it works the way it is intended, this could be good for everyone. Of course, this is spoken by someone who has nothing cooler than ambient water cooling, sometimes with a bucket of ice water tossed in.

Please forgive my more-snarky-than-necessary post above. In my defense, it was after midnight and my head was splitting open with the force of a San Francisco earthquake.

[nzaneb]

Holy shoot got screwed for 100 boints!!!


AHHHHHHH!!!!:mad: Me too!! From 6th on the team to 13th. Gotta love it.

[Ross]

Hey Rich, can you comment on the using less than full available cores as to what "class" the CPU will be under for score? Like using 1 core on a quad for SPi or is a quad a quad no matter how many cores are used for the bench?

We'll all roll with the punches with a little griping here and there of course, but these type of results from the change really do bug me:

It's freaking hysterical though. toddm27 hasn't benched in like a year and went from #7 for OCF the current hwbot (214.6pts) to #2 on OCF in Rev3 (440.7pts) Brilliant. That's because all the h/w he's benched on is ancient by now. So this is how to win on Rev3: stop benching NOW and in a year, you'll have double the points. Don't let your wife find out you can stop buying/benching AND go up in points

He seriously hasn't benched in I don't know how long. He had a baby, etc. and just up and quit. It has to be a year, maybe more, since he last submitted a score, so all the h/w he had scored with are old and probably very widely used on hwbot by now. Does it make sense that someone out of the game for a year or longer should be #2 for a team and someone active using newer h/w gets dropped to like #10 for their effort?

[richba5tard]

Hey Rich, can you comment on the using less than full available cores as to what "class" the CPU will be under for score? Like using 1 core on a quad for SPi or is a quad a quad no matter how many cores are used for the bench?


Disabling cores for the purpose of scoring well in a lower core rank is not allowed. Unlocking cores is allowed, but they need to be moved to the correct category by mods (which means a lot of work for mods the first months).


He seriously hasn't benched in I don't know how long. He had a baby, etc. and just up and quit. It has to be a year, maybe more, since he last submitted a score, so all the h/w he had scored with are old and probably very widely used on hwbot by now. Does it make sense that someone out of the game for a year or longer should be #2 for a team and someone active using newer h/w gets dropped to like #10 for their effort?

I can't check as dev server is down atm, but there was a discussion in the private section about this. Opinions differ a lot on this one. Some people find that points should be disabled for inactive users, other's don't. Your submissions only get more points in the future if you remain at the top, which is unlikely.

[Gautam]

Only time will tell, but if there are no real boints on offer, will it ever increase in popularity on the bot, 4 X 5870's that is.
Not that I really care about the boints for myself, but it does matter to me that I do my best for the team. And benching 4 cards on ln2 does little to help there, and it takes alot of skill to mod, and run a five pot setup.

Except that in reality only about 2-3 people in the world run a setup like that, and everyone else just runs all cards on air...

Or maybe I'm stuck on this whole temperature thing, and no one really cares.
Bluntly that's the truth. Subzero cooling is just way too accessible, with an afternoon's benching worth of dry ice readily available for about 5 bucks. Consequently pretty much the only people in the game left that aren't subzero are just doing so out of choice.

[dejo]

my points stayed pretty much the same, but moved up on the team and elsewhere. still dont think its the right move for hwbot. wont help the ones that cant clock the cpu/gpu

[MIAHALLEN]

What if all the top benchers called foul and stopped submitting scores for points...if we're "above that", then lets continue to submit, but only for recognition of what we've always gone after, amazing scores and WRs...leave the boints to those who care about "financial accessability" :shrug:

[EarthDog]

I dont see how LN2/DI is easily accessible. Sure the product is, however the "extra" rig needed to bench with that stuff doesnt cost $5. I bench the tar out of this system and its my daily driver. I dont think I could put under sub freezing and get away with it. Again, so torn. I see the pain on a lot of well known benchers faces here and at XS over this. But I also see the the big picture in what this will accomplish.

[I.M.O.G.]

@Gautam: Makes sense.

@Miah: Will be interesting to see how it plays out. The benchmarking landscape has changed quite a bit as time's gone by, and I'd attribute a lot of those changes to the venue and competition that hwbot made available/popular. If the boints flow differently, there will undoubtedly be a shift in focus taking place across the benchmarking community.

In my understanding, there have always been basically 2 arenas for competition - World Records and boints. Those don't have to be the same, but I'd be willing to bet those taking the World Records will also be commonly going after the boints any way they can.

Just my prediction, because the boints are where the quantifiable competition and leaderboards are, outside the World Record rankings.

[nzaneb]

my points stayed pretty much the same, but moved up on the team and elsewhere. still dont think its the right move for hwbot. wont help the ones that cant clock the cpu/gpu

Actually you dropped over 40 points, and down to 11th ;) Looks like I've got some work to do to get my positions back
We did increase on the team standings though :thup:

[freeagent]

Looks like Im going to need another q6600 :D

As far as dry ice and ln2 availability, there is a welders supply store 3/4 of a block from me heheh. So that part is easy, I just never bothered with getting a pot, Tho a few times I thought I shoud have heh.. :)

I can see why the guys on top are upset tho.. Its not cheap, or easy to get the numbers they have. Sooo much time and energy went in, only to have it all turned upside down.. I am slightly miffed that I am in the process of pieceing together a new rig.. when my old one would have done me more good :D

Ahh well.. we'll see what happens :)

[Ross]

I can't check as dev server is down atm, but there was a discussion in the private section about this. Opinions differ a lot on this one. Some people find that points should be disabled for inactive users, other's don't. Your submissions only get more points in the future if you remain at the top, which is unlikely.I don't think I'd disable points for inactive users, they may become active again, but it's entirely unfair for points to double and positions to skyrocket simply by the virtue of not having used any recent h/w. It's probably impossible, but a compromise might be to make their current old submissions immune to the rev3 scoring schema unless they submit new benches.

I dont see how LN2/DI is easily accessible.I get DI at my local grocery store for $1.19/lb. The only way it would be more accessible is if it came out of my refrigerator door next to the water :shrug: LN2 takes a little more effort and cost, but again, you're either willing to put in the time/effort/$$ for extreme benching or you're not. Same goes for a separate daily/bench rig if benching a daily machine is too disturbing. I used a SS as 24/7 cooling and benched my daily rig for years, but I know not everyone would be up for that :p

[Gautam]

if it came out of my refrigerator door next to the water :shrug:
The mere thought of that is making me :drool: :santa:

[dejo]

any chance that someone can post a screen of the teams new points and rankings. cant get in myself

[EarthDog]

I get DI at my local grocery store for $1.19/lb. The only way it would be more accessible is if it came out of my refrigerator door next to the water :shrug: LN2 takes a little more effort and cost, but again, you're either willing to put in the time/effort/$$ for extreme benching or you're not. Same goes for a separate daily/bench rig if benching a daily machine is too disturbing. I used a SS as 24/7 cooling and benched my daily rig for years, but I know not everyone would be up for that :pI know where to get the items, thats not the problem (I didnt state that in my post???? "Sure the porduct is...."). The problem/point is using them on a 24/7 watercooled rig all sitting in a $300 case I just bought.

Maybe Im just not ready for the big time yet seeing as how I dont want to afford (not 'cant') another beching rig and dont want to risk killing anything with the amount of prep, extreme voltages, and potential for me to make a mistake in benching that way for the first time...

[dejo]

well if people want to voice their displeasure, you could just not visit the bot site and get others to do the same and if enough stop adding to the sites daily viewing and maybe we get back to the good ole days of going for big scores. I dont care for the new as it doesnt do anything for anyone. It may for right now but to ones with the cooling will come back to dominate those classes once again. And once again run off the newbs.

[KonaKona]

For everyone who keeps saying DICE is cheap, remember you need a pot and insulation first. Plus you have to have the balls to bench sub-ambient on your daily rig (that most of us don't have the cash to replace if it goes poof).

Gonna see if my standings changed any, might get some points thanks to my mad Q6600 skills.

[Deanzo]

For everyone who keeps saying DICE is cheap, remember you need a pot and insulation first. Plus you have to have the balls to bench sub-ambient on your daily rig (that most of us don't have the cash to replace if it goes poof).

Gonna see if my standings changed any, might get some points thanks to my mad Q6600 skills.

Dice benching is cheap over all imo, you don't have to buy a F1 EE, almost all the cheap pots do dry ice benching well, over the last 3 or so months I've seen some 2nd hand ones very cheap.
And these things last forever, and with 4 new holes in the mounting, it will work on the next socket. Dead easy.

I would do that over the mad days of benching outside in the cold pushing 1.7+ volts into a E6600 to bench in the very low 4Ghz range with nothing more than a heatsink and fan to help keep the cpu cool and safe.

LN2 is something else, alot more gear is needed for that.

[I.M.O.G.]

I feel like people are forgetting this part, emphasis mine:

Well, I completely understand your point, but we took the decission anyway because of 2 major reasons:
- Anyone with enough cash and zero overclocking skills can got very high up in the rankings. wPrime was ruled by someone who ran it on a 64 core server at default settings and received 100 points. Do you think the rankings should be ruled by people who run at stock settings, but have lots of cash?
- hwbot rev3 is about competition, not purely the score you get. The 4x 5870's are not much points right now because there is not much competition in the 4xGPU rank, but points can only increase, as 1x and 2x GPU are already maxed out. 4x GPU will only increase in popularity, and in a year or so it will provide equal points as 1x and 2x GPU.

Which basically says, maybe your top spots on the hottest hardware won't be worth the most boints now, but they'll become more valuable as time goes on and the hardware becomes more commonplace.

To me, it sounds like this system really does make sense, but the transition period (right now) is going to suck. Over time, the people who stick things out and continue benching and competing long term will be rewarded the greatest.

[Ross]

I know where to get the items, thats not the problem (I didnt state that in my post???? "Sure the porduct is...."). The problem/point is using them on a 24/7 watercooled rig all sitting in a $300 case I just bought.

Maybe Im just not ready for the big time yet seeing as how I dont want to afford (not 'cant') another beching rig and dont want to risk killing anything with the amount of prep, extreme voltages, and potential for me to make a mistake in benching that way for the first time...Again, there are risks with going big. If anyone could/would do it, everyone would have the huge scores. You kind of get more used to the voltages and risks as you go, but you need to decide to start somewhere.

I'm with Dean. DI tubes are a dime a dozen nowdays and can be had cheaper than some aftermarket air coolers. People just need to decide to try it or not. Trust me, try it once and it's all over from there ;)

Which basically says, maybe your top spots on the hottest hardware won't be worth the most boints now, but they'll become more valuable as time goes on and the hardware becomes more commonplace.Which goes back to my previous point: people who already have points, but haven't benched in a while will be at the top of the heap after the change for having stopped because the h/w used is well in it's life cycle and dated.

[Deanzo]

, the people who stick things out and continue benching and competing long term will be rewarded the greatest.


That part is cool and all, but you have to wait a year or so for your scores to really matter kind of sucks from my point of view.
I do understand what they are saying, it's just "I" like to see new gear pushed hard. Sure you can say that will still happen and the boints or lack there of shouldn't stop me/anyone doing just that. I just don't like the fact if you put in the time, money and skill you can't help yourself and the team with more boints.
Though I am on board that it's not right, if you have the money anyone can buy 4 5870's and pick up easy boints. But it's not those users I care about. It's the guys that do take the time to test each OS, drivers, volt mod, change cooling etc.

[I.M.O.G.]

@Deanzo: I completely agree with your sentiment.

Which goes back to my previous point: people who already have points, but haven't benched in a while will be at the top of the heap after the change for having stopped because the h/w used is well in it's life cycle and dated.

What about those benchers already at the top? Don't they also have benchs ran on top end hardware a year ago or 2 years ago? Shouldn't they be fine if that's the case? Gautam for example, should be alright because he's benched quite a bit of hardware for quite a while - if he's benched some new top end gear, maybe that will be discounted a bit right now because it's not "popular" equipment, but some of his older stuff should be weighted a bit heavier. Maybe it mostly comes out in the wash?

If you are "new" to hwbot and benching the latest high-end gear, I could see how it could take some time to build boints/reputation... But that part of the process seems reasonable - the alternative is heavily weighting expensive brand new equipment over all other benchmarking work.

I agree it sucks for people posting awesome scores right now on the hottest new hardware. I'm just trying to look at this from the big picture and see if I understand all the factors at play... Seems like the top benchmarkers who have been active for a while ought to be gaining some points also from some of the older gear they've worked with in the past.

You guys are the experts, wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something.

[Sir-Epix]

Okay all this talk about the older hardware worth more points and my interest in forum wars has got me..well benchmarking. So I posted my first submission on hwbot and got no boints? What the heck?

http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/processor/athlon_64_4050_x2_brisbane?tab=hall%20of%20fame

I am the fourth fastest (currently) 4050e out there and no boints? I don't get this.

[EarthDog]

Arent those same top benchers also losing something since the latest and greatest took a hit as well. As you said mostly comes out in the wash...???

I also thought thats how the bot worked in the first place...the more entries said hardware had, the more boints you could get...

Okay all this talk about the older hardware worth more points and my interest in forum wars has got me..well benchmarking. So I posted my first submission on hwbot and got no boints? What the heck?

http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/processor/athlon_64_4050_x2_brisbane?tab=hall%20of%20fame

I am the fourth fastest (currently) 4050e out there and no boints? I don't get this.Not enough entries to warrant any boints is my guess. Thats not exactly a common processor.

[dejo]

well if people want to voice their displeasure, you could just not visit the bot site and get others to do the same and if enough stop adding to the sites daily viewing and maybe we get back to the good ole days of going for big scores. I dont care for the new as it doesnt do anything for anyone. It may for right now but to ones with the cooling will come back to dominate those classes once again. And once again run off the newbs.

not all of my scores are posted to the new site yet. so maybe there is hope for my score but dont know that I will support the bot anymore. I feel like they changed the rules in the middle of the game. even if I end up with more points or even the same points or even less points I am still not liking the change.

if some feel like they need to score points, why not just come up with a bush league, let newbs gather points there for like a year or so

[Deanzo]

What about those benchers already at the top? Don't they also have benchs ran on top end hardware a year ago or 2 years ago? Shouldn't they be fine if that's the case? Gautam for example, should be alright because he's benched quite a bit of hardware for quite a while - if he's benched some new top end gear, maybe that will be discounted a bit right now because it's not "popular" equipment, but some of his older stuff should be weighted a bit heavier. Maybe it mostly comes out in the wash?

If you are "new" to hwbot and benching the latest high-end gear, I could see how it could take some time to build boints/reputation... But that part of the process seems reasonable - the alternative is heavily weighting expensive brand new equipment over all other benchmarking work.

I agree it sucks for people posting awesome scores right now on the hottest new hardware. I'm just trying to look at this from the big picture and see if I understand all the factors at play... Seems like the top benchmarkers who have been active for a while ought to be gaining some points also from some of the older gear they've worked with in the past.

You guys are the experts, wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something.

In Gautam's case, he'll get raped.
I don't have time to check the bot, but he may have never benched a E6600, for him a X6800 would have been the core2 to use as the multi was unlocked.
Under the new rules, a E6600 at 4Ghz could get more points than a X6800 at 5.2Ghz. As there are/were more users using E6600 back then.

Under the old rules, it was one card or multi cards, now it's one gpu or multi gpus.
So he would have used the best card for each bench under the rules ie 4870X2 or GTX295 for his benchmarking, now those cards move to multi gpu scores. Which means that those score count for little under the new rules.

[I.M.O.G.]

Thanks, that helps to understand better.

[Gautam]

In Gautam's case, he'll get raped.

True...but nothing's stopping me from getting single gpu benches off either, and digging through some old hardware. ;) :bday: And you won't hear me complaining about it either...

(I already am "raped" anyways...at the start of this year I was something like 3rd, now I'm 36th or whatever...haven't done any real benching for quite some time...)

And FWIW, check the E6600 category, I actually happened to make a bit of a bang in that one in particular a week ago. :)

I was always against the 4870X2/GTX295 getting counted as "single card". I benched the 4870X2 because I had to. 2 4870's would have been more fun.

[icebob]

I guess nobody is married at the bot. Usually to get new stuff we have to sell old stuff, now we want new stuff but need to keep the old stuff, probably in a locked place cause when the ol'lady will decide it's time for cleanup.....

[Deanzo]

The X6800 brings up a point about the money side of things

Sure they cost more (or did) but on air/water their overclock would be about the same as a cpu with a locked multi.
You needed cooling and volt modding skills to get the high numbers.
As is the case with almost all cpu scores.

And it was sooo much harder back then, most of them had to make there own pots, it wasn't like what it is today when every man and his dog can buy one for $100.

Soo much more skill than 99% of the E6600 scores out there.

[Deanzo]

And FWIW, check the E6600 category, I actually happened to make a bit of a bang in that one in particular a week ago. :)

I was always against the 4870X2/GTX295 getting counted as "single card". I benched the 4870X2 because I had to. 2 4870's would have been more fun.

Nice, last week you say, soo you do care about boints :p:D


Yep, should never have been that way, but with the way things are right now, changes things for a number of benchers that were using the best card under the rules.


And any one reading all this, do note, I think I'll come out well with the new rules. I've benched lots of mid and high end cpu's/gpu's cold.
But when I saw a Q6600 SPI score @ 4.5Ghz of mine get 20 boints under the new rules, and I will be benching 4 5870's cold very soon, and it will get almost nothing. When I sure as hell know which is harder, just seems wrong to me.

[KonaKona]

I would do that over the mad days of benching outside in the cold pushing 1.7+ volts into a E6600 to bench in the very low 4Ghz range with nothing more than a heatsink and fan to help keep the cpu cool and safe.

I do that every FW, I'm more worried about condensation than overheating with this Q, the darn thing is invincible.

I'm with Dean. DI tubes are a dime a dozen nowdays and can be had cheaper than some aftermarket air coolers. People just need to decide to try it or not. Trust me, try it once and it's all over from there ;)

I've tried it, borrowed a pot that JLK had for a week or so. Got some nice scores with a celly 352 and a e4300 ES. Not using dielectric grease again though, it's impossible to get all of that off.

[Deanzo]

I do that every FW, I'm more worried about condensation than overheating with this Q, the darn thing is invincible.



I've tried it, borrowed a pot that JLK had for a week or so. Got some nice scores with a celly 352 and a e4300 ES. Not using dielectric grease again though, it's impossible to get all of that off.

@ -60 or so, condensation is easy to manage, soo many "how to" threads on how to setup your socket area these days.

-160 makes it a bit more fun though.

[KonaKona]

@ -60 or so, condensation is easy to manage, soo many "how to" threads on how to setup your socket area these days.

-160 makes it a bit more fun though.

I was at -100, man.

Maybe after I get my new MB in I'll see if a little oven action can fix up this UD3R. If it does then I'll hit up JLK after FW and see if I can borrow that pot again.

[Gautam]

Nice, last week you say, soo you do care about boints :p:D


Yep, should never have been that way, but with the way things are right now, changes things for a number of benchers that were using the best card under the rules.


And any one reading all this, do note, I think I'll come out well with the new rules. I've benched lots of mid and high end cpu's/gpu's cold.
But when I saw a Q6600 SPI score @ 4.5Ghz of mine get 20 boints under the new rules, and I will be benching 4 5870's cold very soon, and it will get almost nothing. When I sure as hell know which is harder, just seems wrong to me.
But don't forget that the hardware points are still capped at 300...only reason for them is to help the team. So for your personal points the old stuff is essentially still worth 0.

[KonaKona]

INVISIBLE POST

[Ross]

What's the word on Hyperthreading? Is a dual core with HT considered a dual or a quad?

[richba5tard]

HT is not considered as an extra core, but as optimization.

[dejo]

they finally have all by benches shown in my profile, just dont have points figured yet. am real curious as to how this will play out

[Ross]

HT is not considered as an extra core, but as optimization.Thank you!

[Khemikal]

Okay all this talk about the older hardware worth more points and my interest in forum wars has got me..well benchmarking. So I posted my first submission on hwbot and got no boints? What the heck?

http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/processor/athlon_64_4050_x2_brisbane?tab=hall%20of%20fame

I am the fourth fastest (currently) 4050e out there and no boints? I don't get this.

I can't figure out why, but for some reason your screenshot is marked as 'invalid'. It has the main and memory tabs of CPUZ up, has the Pi Calc finished popup, and it has the 1M and the top bar of SPi showing as well. Is there something else this screen shot is missing to be considered valid Maxi?

[Bobnova]

Typically enabling HT gives you 10-30% more performance. On an I7 920 that's worth 1.2 cores.
Still, unless all the prescot P4s are dual cores and the Pentium D is a quad, HT doesn't count as more cores :D

[icebob]

Okay all this talk about the older hardware worth more points and my interest in forum wars has got me..well benchmarking. So I posted my first submission on hwbot and got no boints? What the heck?

http://www.hwbot.org/hardware/processor/athlon_64_4050_x2_brisbane?tab=hall%20of%20fame

I am the fourth fastest (currently) 4050e out there and no boints? I don't get this.

here's from your submission:
Global Rank: not available. User does not participate in hwbot rankings.
not available. User does not participate in hwbot rankings.

When you submit your score there's a box that you need to check, one say do not participate and the other say participate

[Khemikal]

here's from your submission:
Global Rank: not available. User does not participate in hwbot rankings.
not available. User does not participate in hwbot rankings.

When you submit your score there's a box that you need to check, one say do not participate and the other say participate

Bob, nice catch.

[Ross]

Still, unless all the prescot P4s are dual cores and the Pentium D is a quad, HT doesn't count as more cores :DI wanted clarification with all the changes going on :p With my luck, I would've ordered a 32nm Core i5 and then found out it would be counted as a quad ;)

[Voidn]

My head kind of hurts from reading 30 pages about this :).

I totally understand why people who are loosing tons of points are ****ed.

But going forward isn't it better to have the gpu's and cpu cores split up into separate rankings. 1gpu vs an x2 or SLI\Crossfire vs QuadSLI\Quadfire never seemed fair/correct to me. And the multi-threaded apps should take into account the # of cores the cpu has. Wouldn't things just get further out of hand when we have hexa core cpus and quad core gpus or octafire ect.

As a new bencher I kind of like the idea of # of hwpoints based on the popularity scale (even if it needs to be adjusted to be fair). LN2 / 4gpu benchers will always get the global points right. But then again I don't have much to lose. Looked like wprime is keeping me afloat for now.

[Ross]

Rev 3 up (but really slow ATM or it's my connection). Check your new points/rakings. I moved up a bit and I am sure those single card benches I did this weekend helped. Still waiting for the team page to load to see how it landed...

EDIT: OCF moved up 4 places on the new point system

[KonaKona]

Whoa, I went from like, .4 to 15 points on this. All the rest of you stop yelling, I like the new system. End of story. :bday:

From the looks of it my Q6600 is the reason I've been getting all these points. I got a new non-UD3R motherboard coming in soon as well as some non-uber cheap ram. I feel a big points boost coming soon. :D

Dang I can't even type, this is making me p.happy. :bday::bday::bday:

[rdrash]

Congrats on the boint boost....

Whoa, I went from like, .4 to 15 points on this. All the rest of you stop yelling, I like the new system. End of story. :bday:

From the looks of it my Q6600 is the reason I've been getting all these points. I got a new non-UD3R motherboard coming in soon as well as some non-uber cheap ram. I feel a big points boost coming soon. :D

Dang I can't even type, this is making me p.happy. :bday::bday::bday:



:sly: which is why I traded a i7 965 for a Q6600+$$$ a few days back...I've been spending way too much time and $$$$ on ebay and otherplaces to gather all the "right" pieces of gear :sn: enjoy your points why you have them cause I'm gonna cram as much time as I can in January and February under ln2 with "right" gear to STEAL as many boints as I can lay my hands on.....:comp: :rock:

[moocow]

... SWEET!
I went from .1 point to 14 =D

[Deanzo]

Mmmmm, I did end up doing kind of ok out of it :beer:

[KonaKona]

Congrats on the boint boost....





:sly: which is why I traded a i7 965 for a Q6600+$$$ a few days back...I've been spending way too much time and $$$$ on ebay and otherplaces to gather all the "right" pieces of gear :sn: enjoy your points why you have them cause I'm gonna cram as much time as I can in January and February under ln2 with "right" gear to STEAL as many boints as I can lay my hands on.....:comp: :rock:

Hey, you watch out, I might up and borrow JLKs pot again and take those points right back from you, ya hear? Heck I might even hunt down some LN2. You never know. :bday:

I'd also like to point out at this point that all of the 'casual' benchers that mostly use their daily hardware are getting nice point boosts now, and the people that use LN2 and ES chips every weekend are loosing them. It looks like the new system is doing it's job.

[moocow]

I dont know about you, but I love this system :D

[Ross]

:sly: which is why I traded a i7 965 for a Q6600+$$$ a few days back...II saw that Matt and knew exactly what you were up to :sn:

Hey, you watch out, I might up and borrow JLKs pot again and take those points right back from you, ya hear? Heck I might even hunt down some LN2. You never know. :bday:

I'd also like to point out at this point that all of the 'casual' benchers that mostly use their daily hardware are getting nice point boosts now, and the people that use LN2 and ES chips every weekend are loosing them. It looks like the new system is doing it's job.Maybe not to such a degree as some might have been expecting. If Dean did OK, we may be able to keep it :D I see KP is still at the top, so it's not tragic :beer:

I went up a bit, but probably mostly due to my incessant use of only midrange vid cards that everyone has. My h/w points went up a real good chunk (about 200). Wait, I think I moved up 1 more spot since it first came back online, maybe I like this new system too LOL. I'm just happy that I barely had enough to squeak by toddm in the team ranking. I mean good for him, but clearly a major setback for everyone that gets bumped down under ex-benchers :(

[rdrash]

My problem has always been that I bench the multi card setups going for the big score.... even now I have 4x GTX285 classifieds sitting here and I have yet to turn in a single card bench score with those... I have 4x 5870s sitting here and unless i'm mistaken, no signle card score posted by me, then I have 2x 5970s sitting here...hey WTF I'm starting to think it was personal against me...j/k ...no worries I'll adjust and kick the crap out of single/dual card scores soon enough ...that plus old gear will get me back where I once was.

[KonaKona]

My problem has always been that I bench the multi card setups going for the big score.... even now I have 4x GTX285 classifieds sitting here and I have yet to turn in a single card bench score with those... I have 4x 5870s sitting here and unless i'm mistaken, no signle card score posted by me, then I have 2x 5970s sitting here...hey WTF I'm starting to think it was personal against me...j/k ...no worries I'll adjust and kick the crap out of single/dual card scores soon enough ...that plus old gear will get me back where I once was.

Show off.

You guys better watch out, this Q6600 might have some serious potential under better conditions.

[mgoode]

My problem has always been that I bench the multi card setups going for the big score.... even now I have 4x GTX285 classifieds sitting here and I have yet to turn in a single card bench score with those... I have 4x 5870s sitting here and unless i'm mistaken, no signle card score posted by me, then I have 2x 5970s sitting here...hey WTF I'm starting to think it was personal against me...j/k ...no worries I'll adjust and kick the crap out of single/dual card scores soon enough ...that plus old gear will get me back where I once was.

Same here,I feel like I spent alot of time and money the past year+ climbing the ranks and "POOF" it's all gone. I dont think anyone lost more points than me.:cry:


Oh well... I will get over it(someday) and do it all again. The Mothership is coming and the Bitch is mad!!!

[Deanzo]

How many spots mate ?

[mgoode]

I went from 42nd to 163rd worldwide and minus 300+ points(mostly global points) , But I am over it:) Like matt said time for a new stategy.

hell Ross has more Boints then me and that can be right:) JK Ross

[icebob]

Mmmmm, I did end up doing kind of ok out of it :beer:

Shoot, that's pretty good, #13 in the world:salute:

[dejo]

I really think its a bad idea, sure it will let some of the people get .1 boints somewhere. But how is it right that I have to take my 9800 up against 285's for global points

[richba5tard]

It's more correct than getting into the rev2 top 20 overclockers worldwide with your system running at stock speeds (i975 + 4xgpu, 4,8,16 socket servers in wPrime running at stock speed).

The overclocker ranking should represent overclocking skill, not how much money you have to burn on hardware... or do you disagree? (not a retoric question)

[freeagent]

:sly: which is why I traded a i7 965 for a Q6600+$$$ a few days back...


I thought it was too good to be true at the time! 5 mins after we finalised the arrangements, I saw the rule change :cry:

Im almost positive you can hit 45-4600mhz easy if you get the q66 cold, I always had a good feeling about that chip, even tho I "just" used air cooling :cool: If vids mean anything, it has a vid of 1.25, and does 3.4 with 1.2625.. 2 bumps up from stock :)

[Ross]

I went from 42nd to 163rd worldwide and minus 300+ points(mostly global points) , But I am over it:) Like matt said time for a new stategy.

hell Ross has more Boints then me and that can be right:) JK RossOuch on the rank drop. I assume you meant to say "can't", but perfect place for a typo :beer:

[Voidn]

Looks like its time to bench my 8800gts in my i7 rig.

[MIAHALLEN]

@Dean...still p!$$ed off? :D

I stayed almost the same..only lost about 10 boints...need to get back up over 300.
Almost all the global points I lost, I made up for with HW boints.

The Q6600 clocking I did with Mark is really paying off now. Thanks Mark...we gotta bench together again someday :beer: