NV25/NV30 / R200U/R300 (THE FUTURE!) a must read for any gamer!

[OC-Master]

For those of you who are looking for information onto how fast Nvidia's Ge-Force4 Ti 4600 really is, here is a few pointers.
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-The Ge-Force4 Ti 4600 (330/660) is 100% faster when compared against a Ge-Force2 Ultra (250/460). This means that on average with a 1GHz system, the GF4 will score double the FPS @ 1600x1200x32.

-The Ge-Force4 Ti 4600 (NV25) scores just over 50fps in Doom3 (J.Carmack stated this) when compared to the Ge-Force3 which scores an average 30fps in Doom3. All tests in this game were done with Graphics to the max @ 1024x768x32 with a 1GHz Athlon processor.

-Having AGP 8X enabled will give you a 1% extra performance boost to overall 3D FPS on average. The need for AGP8X isnt there since the GeForce4 Ti 4600 comes with 128MB of DDR-Ram which eliminates any need for texture swapping.

Other Rumors and Events
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-Radeon 8X00 XL Series (R200U) will deliver extended performance over the original Radeon 8500. The (ULTRA) series will feature a 300MHz GPU and 600MHz Ram. Everything else will be identical to the original 8500. Becuase the core being reworked, overclocking can still be made easy.
-ATI overclockers will be finding them selves hitting GPU speeds of over 330MHz and Memory speeds of over 650MHz. Last but not least, these cards will have 128MB of video ram equiped. These cards are expected to hit shelve March.

-Radeon 9XXX Series (R300) will without a doubt deliver more RAW performance than the Ge-Force4 Ti 4600. This is becuase the R300 has a 8 Pipe engine. That doubles the fillrate while having the same core clock as before. The R300 has a rumored Core clock speed between 350~400MHz with no less than 350MHz. The slowest possible ram that ATI would use for this card would be 700MHz (350DDR) which would mean alot of bandwidth. At 350MHz, the Radeon 9XXX would put out a 2800Mpixel (2.8Gpixel) fillrate! The Radeon 9XXX currently will use only DDR ram and not QDR ram, and will be 256-bit like the early generations were. The possible release dates on the R300 series will be no sooner than September with the specs let out on the website sometime in July~August.

-Nvidia's NV30 (Eclipse) is something I must mention again and again. Not to be biased or anything but these specs are looking to blow everyone else out of the water.
-The NV30 'is a card of the future' because it features a totally new architexture, ramdac, memory interface and internal instruction rate.
-Current prototypes as of September 2001 have the GPU running at 400MHz. This 8 pipe 400MHz GPU will dish out a mind blowing 3200Mpixel (3.2Gpixel) fillrate. The memory architexture on the NV30 will also now use QDR-ram over the older DDR-ram. QDR-Ram will run @ 250MHz (1GHz effectively) and will be rated 4ns (as of prototype used). The card will have a pure 512-bit architexture doubling 2D performance straight across the entire board. The most important new feature is that the NV30 will support 64-bit color. this will allow for even more accurate colors and eliminate the banning of colors in the most precise texture lapping locations.
-Current prototypes of this card were based back on .15 micron technology but I know that Nvidia will have it shrunk down to at least .13 micron technology by time production begins. The NV30 (Eclipse) is scheduled for release January 2003 approx 12 months after the release of the Ge-Force 4.

-Performance wise from both ATI and Nvidia, I can see the R300 easily break the 60fps mark in Doom3 @ 1280x1024x32 while the NV30 whistles @ 1600x1200x32 also scoring well over 60fps. John Carmack also said that although Doom3 would not officially support 64-bit color out of the box, it would support it through a patch. And he said, expect Doom3 to be playable in 1024x768x64 with 2X FSAA with the NV30.

Enough from me already, lets add to the rumors and get this thread going! BTW, whats after R300, anyone heard??

Go here: http://www.theinquirer.net/29010215.htm for GF4 specs


AXIA
:beer: :beer: :eek: :beer: :beer:

[GoldenTiger]

-The Ge-Force4 Ti 4600 (330/650) is 100% faster when compared against a Ge-Force2 Ultra (250/460). This means that on average with a 1GHz system, the GF4 will score double the FPS @ 1600x1200x32.

-The Ge-Force4 Ti 4600 (NV25) scores just over 50fps in Doom3 (J.Carmack stated this) when compared to the Ge-Force3 which scores an average 30fps in Doom3. All tests in this game were done with Graphics to the max @ 1024x768x32 with a 1GHz Athlon processor.

-Having AGP 8X enabled will give you a 1% extra performance boost to overall 3D FPS on average. The need for AGP8X isnt there since the GeForce4 Ti 4600 comes with 128MB of DDR-Ram which eliminates any need for texture swapping.



Is this actual fact? Sounds like it, all the more encouraging to me :)! I sooo can't wait to watercool my Ti4400!

[AtomicGuY]

Oh yea!:cool:

Carmack is da man!

Wolfenstein and Doom3 look so nice!......!!

[Akumu X]

::drools::

[Dark Illusion]

AXIA, do you know what you're talking about or you you just type random babble?

Oh wait, this is the same guy who said his "friend" has a R8800 and a KR7A. Neither of which were out.

My bad.

[Vinny]

8800 is out, they are only selling them to small corps. A friend of mine is an artist and he got one.

[OC-Master]

Dark Illusion,

Yes he did have the 8800 radeon along with the KR7A mobo, being the card OEM and mobo retail. He is a graphics artist that had an oem radeon shipped to his door.;)

[Ice Breaker 489]

oooo someone got told!

[Dark Illusion]

Wait, do you mean, this thread?

http://forums.overclockers.ws/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47778

That you suddenly backed out of when asked for proof?
Please, the only ones that back you are the less knowledgable. Which you should stop misinforming.

[dreamtfk]

Whats the Eta on GForce4? Sounds promising seeing that I have Geofrce2 64mb now. 128 DDR Wow!

[cjlax5]

hehe, and back to the thread, those cards look awsome

[OC-Master]

Dark Illusion,

Backed out?

Proof? Bah, the only ones that need proof are the none believers that need to see things to the furthest extreme before actually believing. Just overclock your 8500 to 300/600 and run Quake3A, there you go!

Also, it even detected the 8800 as a 8500 radeon! OK, enough with this subject and card which is now to be replaced by the radeon 8500XL.


wahh.... less knowledgable being u?;)

anyway, enough with you Dark Illusion, /:burn:

back to the thread...


AXIA
:rolleyes:

[dreamtfk]

gimme a break all these rumors and no ones know approx time of release?:eek:

[OC-Master]

unfortuneatly,

with Nvidia, they have been starting to have some major delays with there products ever since the original Ge-Force3. What I can tell you is that Ge-Force4 will be officially annouced on Wednesday!

ATI will have the R300 here sometime in fall, it is still to far away to completely judge, my guess September.

[OC-Master]

http://www.theinquirer.net/29010215.htm

all the ge-force4 specs you could ever handle!

[Dark Illusion]

Originally posted by AXIA
Dark Illusion,
Proof? Bah, the only ones that need proof are the none believers that need to see things to the furthest extreme before actually believing. Just overclock your 8500 to 300/600 and run Quake3A, there you go!
Also, it even detected the 8800 as a 8500 radeon! OK, enough with this subject and card which is now to be replaced by the radeon 8500XL.
AXIA
:rolleyes:

So let me get this straight. Your "friend" got a card that wasn't yet released at the time. Spent a couple thousand in monopoly money or how much the costs. Installed the drivers that detected the 8800 as a 8500 card. Are you on crack? Did you even think when you post?

ATi Drivers may not me the greatest but they sure aren't as lazy enough to make you buy their high-end card and supply consumers with drivers to not support it.

[Dark Illusion]

And since I'm here, just for kicks

-Having AGP 8X enabled will give you a 1% extra performance boost to overall 3D FPS on average. The need for AGP8X isnt there since the GeForce4 Ti 4600 comes with 128MB of DDR-Ram which eliminates any need for texture swapping.

I wonder if you were just quoting the 4X over 2X advantage of a year ago here. Having 4X transfers enabled would only have ~1% advantage over 2X. Seeing as no motherboard currently has AGP8X you don't really know. 128MB is PLENTY for storing textures. 8X transfers just give you more bandwidth.

Think 128MB on 133FSB to 128MB on 266FSB.

The memory architexture on the NV30 will also now use QDR-ram over the older DDR-ram. QDR-Ram will run @ 250MHz (1GHz effectively) and will be rated 4ns (as of prototype used). The card will have a pure 512-bit architexture doubling 2D performance straight across the entire board.

I wonder if you took this one out of the air. 512-bit what? 2D performance? 2D performance depends on the quality and speed of the RAMDAC. 2D visual quality depends on the filter, and cable to the monitor, as well as the quality of the monitor.

And this is just ONE post you made.

[tom_ozahoski]

Im with dark illusion on this one....thankyou

[Despotes]

Uhh... I just can't wait for the NV 30!:eek:

[Vinny]

He didnt GET it. Its installed on his companys comp.

P.S. thanks for them' geforce4 specs.

[Vinny]

DAMN THIS. I WANT TO SEE HOW MUCH THIS GF4 is going to cost. I'm seeing like $400...DAMN IT. People where all like "its going to be 200-300 i hear" getting us poor people hopes up. THEY LIE, FILLED WITH SWEET BITTEN LIES OF UTTER DOOM. Vinny says i want to see prices. Vinny says he wants UPS to work weekends so i can get my parts 2 days faster. ALSO, VINNY SAYS 512 MEGS OF GOOD RDRAM IS COSTING HIM 9 WEEKS OF SEX. (i think im high on something...but i dont know what)

[Maximus Nickus]

Another argument.

Maybe AXIA is wrong but I doubt it, he has proved many of us wrong with our doubts before.

Remember he got it of a website so if anyones wrong its them/

[Strider879]

Think about it, Geforce 3 and 4 were announced and released in the month of february and Geforce 5 will most likely be coming out in February of 2003. Radeon 3 will most likely come out in late September or Early October. The release dates are most likely the same as it had been.

[Goodie]

Originally posted by Vinny
VINNY SAYS 512 MEGS OF GOOD RDRAM IS COSTING HIM 9 WEEKS OF SEX. (i think im high on something...but i dont know what)


Costing you as in $$$, why? do you go to the local hookers for sex. lol J/K Vinny :D I know how ya feel. I bought that Geforce2 Mx 400 card and didnt tell my girlfriend and now Im worried she will find you and cut me off. :(

[Vinny]

YUP YUP....i had a geforce2 mx 400 but it broke....so all i have is this crap tnt2 (only 32 megs to top it off). I need ram for my new computer so im looking at 8-9 weeks untill i have the money to get a geforce4 (rdram costs SO MUCH MONEY). 8-9 weeks for a teenagers is like.....3000000 years for you old people (8-9 = 30000000 is subject to change).

[GoldenTiger]

Heh... why did you get a P4?? The 1.5 p4 is only about as fast as a 900-1000mhz Athlon tbird even, and the RAM is expensive, plus you NEED to replace the motherboard to upgrade the CPU ever.

P.S. Two months is an eternity for teens, indeed...

[Gravity Man]

Just when I though this thread was becoming mature...:rolleyes:

[OC-Master]

quote:
I wonder if you were just quoting the 4X over 2X advantage of a year ago here. Having 4X transfers enabled would only have ~1% advantage over 2X. Seeing as no motherboard currently has AGP8X you don't really know. 128MB is PLENTY for storing textures. 8X transfers just give you more bandwidth.

Think 128MB on 133FSB to 128MB on 266FSB.

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- Dark Illusion, think about what you said, if current platforms already offer more bandwidth through the AGP4X over AGP2X but the performance isnt given, then by theory, there IS NO BOTTLENECK therefore, AGP8X will give an even less result in performance boost over AGP4X. Yes, sure, more than 1% boost in performance will be seen sometimes but this will be on the 32MB and 64MB cards where people need large amount of memory for textures and the system memory is required.


quote:
I wonder if you took this one out of the air. 512-bit what? 2D performance? 2D performance depends on the quality and speed of the RAMDAC. 2D visual quality depends on the filter, and cable to the monitor, as well as the quality of the monitor.


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- Dark Illusion, have you not owned a 64-bit or 128-bit throughput graphics card such as the Permedia2/RIVA128/Intel I740 or TNT2? These cards are all 128-bit or less for throughput. Now, ask anyone whos upgraded from one of theses, when you go from a 64-bit card to a 256-bit card (MX for example from Permdia2), you can actually see the performance boost in Windows as the interface becomes alot quicker and visual items such as Flash5 become faster and strain less cpu power then before.

When you talk about ramdac and your saying it has to do with speed, your completely wrong. The ramdac (Random Access Memory Digital-to-Analog Converter), is a single chip on video adapter card or intergrated now days on the Geforce/Radeon line. The RAMDAC's role is to convert digitally encoded images into analog signals that can be displayed by a monitor. It does nothing else than this. ((It doesnt matter has fast it converts the image over, since the only way you could say that it is faster is that it improves the refreshrate support, and I doubt your monitor is going to go past 200Hz!)). Performance of 2D now days comes from the complete throughput of the card from one end of the waffer to the other. Not by the ramdac.
-The only thing that a 400MHz ramdac over a 350MHz ramdac will have is that the 400MHz ramdac can do 2048x1536x32 @ 85Hz while the 350MHz ramdac is limited to 60Hz at this resolution. RAMDAC does not give any performance boost but rather a higher bandwidth to the External analog out.
-Like say your monitor is 300MHz throughput then a 300MHz RAMDAC will do 100% of the ramdacs capabilities.

Before you type, think what your saying, I'm a little slow sometimes but Im not dumb, and I do have alot of knowledge to share with other fellow members.


AXIA

[Gimps]

Thank you Axia for that explanation of RAMDAC. I was wondering just what it meant and its specific purpose. From your explanation of it I totally agree that it won't in any way affect speed of the card. Anymore info on the GF4 you have for us? I've got $500 sitting in the bank right now and I'm just waiting for an upgrade from my GF2 MX400!

[Dark Illusion]

---- Dark Illusion, think about what you said, if current platforms already offer more bandwidth through the AGP4X over AGP2X but the performance isnt given, then by theory, there IS NO BOTTLENECK therefore, AGP8X will give an even less result in performance boost over AGP4X. Yes, sure, more than 1% boost in performance will be seen sometimes but this will be on the 32MB and 64MB cards where people need large amount of memory for textures and the system memory is required.

Back when AGP4X and 2X were just getting supported, the gains were 1%. Sometimes less, sometimes more. Yes, but what I'm saying is what you said about due to 128MB of video ram, AGP8X won't be needed...you're mixing up bandwidth and storage.

Today's 64MB cards can store all the compressed textures(UT) needed. Having AGP2X or 4X is irrelevant until you get to higher resolutions. A 32MB card would have to swap. Whether you have 2X or 4X.

---- Dark Illusion, have you not owned a 64-bit or 128-bit throughput graphics card such as the Permedia2/RIVA128/Intel I740 or TNT2? These cards are all 128-bit or less for throughput. Now, ask anyone whos upgraded from one of theses, when you go from a 64-bit card to a 256-bit card (MX for example from Permdia2), you can actually see the performance boost in Windows as the interface becomes alot quicker and visual items such as Flash5 become faster and strain less cpu power then before.

XXX-bit is merely a buzz word and you know it(consoles). Different parts of the videocard could be 16/32/64/128/256bit. I'm going to assume you're talking about memory since you said thru'put. Going from 128 to 256-bit would double the bandwidth. Today's cards have no problem whatsoever rendering 2D.

WinXP you say? That's only because only the more recent GF3 and Radeons support all that fancy fade in/out eye candy. Turn the eye candy off and you're running smooth. Flash is mostly CPU BTW. It was made w/ the same idea as Java, to be software dependant.


----When you talk about ramdac and your saying it has to do with speed, your completely wrong. The ramdac (Random Access Memory Digital-to-Analog Converter), is a single chip on video adapter card or intergrated now days on the Geforce/Radeon line. The RAMDAC's role is to convert digitally encoded images into analog signals that can be displayed by a monitor. It does nothing else than this. ((It doesnt matter has fast it converts the image over, since the only way you could say that it is faster is that it improves the refreshrate support, and I doubt your monitor is going to go past 200Hz!)). Performance of 2D now days comes from the complete throughput of the card from one end of the waffer to the other. Not by the ramdac.
-The only thing that a 400MHz ramdac over a 350MHz ramdac will have is that the 400MHz ramdac can do 2048x1536x32 @ 85Hz while the 350MHz ramdac is limited to 60Hz at this resolution. RAMDAC does not give any performance boost but rather a higher bandwidth to the External analog out.
-Like say your monitor is 300MHz throughput then a 300MHz RAMDAC will do 100% of the ramdacs capabilities.

RAMDAC has plenty to do with rendering. TNT2 for example irked me to death. My G400 is graet. Except now it is a non-issue since everycard is up to par. Anything that needs to be displayed onscreen, 2D or 3D on an analog depends on a good quality RAMDAC. Even DualHead starts to lag a little on the 2nd monitor since the 2nd RAMDAC isn't fast enough. Like 3D, you won't be able to see any frames past your refresh rate because they can't be displayed.


-----Like say your monitor is 300MHz throughput then a 300MHz RAMDAC will do 100% of the ramdacs capabilities.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean the monitor's pixel clock? Yes a monitor's pixel clock--video amplifier--has to be high enough to support high res/refresh rates.

[OC-Master]

oh my god,

buddy, the RAMDAC has absolutely nothing to do with performance. It only affects what you see and not how fast the image is rendered. The ramdac only controls how the monitor handles the resolution and refreshrate and thats it. Yes, you can gain image quality on the output from different ramdacs depending on brand but absolutely no performance can be gained. Its like saying a black and white tv is slower than a color tv.... wrong!

EDIT: Also, I want to add that you will notice a difference between 256-bit and 512-bit architextures. An easy way to see this result is to open a webpage with heavy graphics and when you scroll down the page, the extra 256-bit of bandwidth will double the speed and allow for much smoother internet browsing. Personally, I dont think 512-bit will be enough either, I believe we will need 1Kbit of bandwidth to get graphics as smooth as silk when browsing. No more of this paging slowness which can easily be seen on GF3/RADEON.

[Dark Illusion]

---EDIT: Also, I want to add that you will notice a difference between 256-bit and 512-bit architextures. An easy way to see this result is to open a webpage with heavy graphics and when you scroll down the page, the extra 256-bit of bandwidth will double the speed and allow for much smoother internet browsing. Personally, I dont think 512-bit will be enough either, I believe we will need 1Kbit of bandwidth to get graphics as smooth as silk when browsing. No more of this paging slowness which can easily be seen on GF3/RADEON.

Those sites are heavy on Java/Flash. Both mainly processor dependant. I believe extremetech.com has an article recently put up about java. Both will bring any system to its knees.

As for slow scrolling you must have smooth scrolling enabled and scroll X lines as per mouse wheel turn. I'm not quite sure why M$ put this in as disabling "smooth scrolling" actually makes websites scroll more smoothly rather than hiccup.

There is *no* difference in browsing b/w my Matrox G400 and my AIW Radeon when browsing. The G400 is about 3 generations old. If you want smoother internet you should be looking for a faster connection - not videocard.

[OC-Master]

Ok,

Now I know that you dont have a clue what your talking about! Your G400 IS 256-bit and your Radeon is also 256-bit, of course your not gonna see a difference. Ahh, your driving me insane!

and no, there is no way to get internet browsing smoother by increasing the smoothness of the scrolling. (I know what you mean thou! with like making the wheel or arrow buttons appear to make the screen alot nicer when scrollin down or up) but youll need raw graphics GUI throughput to really see a difference.

I can garantee you that you will see a difference between NV25 and NV30 in 2D/windows performance!

[RangerJoe]

umm, sounds like the NV30 will be baddA$$!!!!! i want one. seems like nvidia knows what the future of gaming is gonna be like. this sounds soo cool

[Maximus Nickus]

Man this has gone on a bit.

[Warlord2]

awww

I cant wait to see what will happen in the next 5-10 years. (I donno about you, but Im thinking VR gaming:eek: )

[TruckChase!]

Cool post, but I was hoping that you could list some of your sources for the "next gen" technology? I haven't seen any firm info on that stuff in the past so I'm wondering if it's just conjecture or if it actually is reliable.

[OC-Master]

TruckChase!,

-The rumored specs of the NV30 were dated back as far as summer last year so now, I could be wrong about it being 400MHz. But, even with the NV25 being 330MHz gives you a good idea that the NV30 will be around 400MHz at the very least or more!
-But youve got a real good picture of NV30 (Eclipse) and we know 64-bit color will come, (Carmack blabed about NV30 protos running 64-bit color way back when GF3 first came out!

-R300 is all rumored, I dont have any other complete source other than the ATI roadmap which states that R300 will have 8 pipes and a clock speed of at least 350MHz.

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It's funny how Nvidia is still keeping the same interface, I guess the reason is due to the fact that they have had alot of trouble with the NV30 over the last 5 months and they need to compete against the powerful Radeon8500 series which is a real good deal lately. Drivers have been a real problem for 'NV30' and now I hear that Microsoft is working to get windows XP ready for 64-bit color.

http://www.theinquirer.net/18120115.htm

The link above gives you a good idea of how 64-bit color will operate on todays computers.