POT for DICE

[Joeteck]

Does anyone know where I could get a pot for DICE?

Looking to do some serious ocing soon.

I'm a noob in this area, so I'm not sure if its custom to the board or socket.

Any help would be great.

[hokiealumnus]

This one is down to 70€ + shipping (http://www.overclock.net/cooling-products/738420-cpu-pot-2-0e.html).

[Joeteck]

This one is down to 70€ + shipping (http://www.overclock.net/cooling-products/738420-cpu-pot-2-0e.html).


Thanks just posted.. Wonder if there are any US sellers... ;)

[hokiealumnus]

That's the only one on XS too. I don't see any in our classies. You could go with a Koolance (http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=972), but the mounting mechanism is a pain and IIRC the base is wide. Of course, there's always Kingpin Cooling (http://kingpincooling.com/containers), but you'll pay a pretty penny for those.

[Joeteck]

That pot is good, right? I need expert advice since I have no idea if its a good one or not..

EDIT: what about mounting hardware?

[I.M.O.G.]

Most talk I've heard is with international pot makers... That's why XS has more, more international people there. Kingpin is us based however, but you are going to pay a premium. I believe the pot performance is better than a lot of pots tho.

I haven't done much shopping, I just pay attention to what's going on around so you'll want to do your research and get more input. I do know there are different design factors with pots you should understand so that you make a good decision. Weight is a big one - the more massive the pot, the easier it is to keep temps stable. From watching kyle last night, you can see he had a helping hand with the dice and it was still a bit of work maintaining the temperatures where he wanted them. A heavier pot is better at holding temperatures (more mass = more inertia to temp variations). Surface area inside the pot also effects how well heat is transfered from cpu die to cooling fluid.

There are some blinged with leds inside the pot also. Pretty sure that gets you -10C automatically. :rolleyes: just a quickstart here, do your research and make an informed decision. Most people start with DICE then get a good LN2 pot when they can - LN2 pots have slightly different rules than DICE pots also, so be aware of that.

[hokiealumnus]

For that price, it's hard to go wrong. I can't see the pics from here but I know it has been talked about several times (in the team loaner pot discussion). Mounting hardware is usually included.

[Joeteck]

Most talk I've heard is with international pot makers... That's why XS has more, more international people there. Kingpin is us based however, but you are going to pay a premium. I believe the pot performance is better than a lot of pots tho.

I haven't done much shopping, I just pay attention to what's going on around so you'll want to do your research and get more input. I do know there are different design factors with pots you should understand so that you make a good decision. Weight is a big one - the more massive the pot, the easier it is to keep temps stable. From watching kyle last night, you can see he had a helping hand with the dice and it was still a bit of work maintaining the temperatures where he wanted them. A heavier pot is better at holding temperatures (more mass = more inertia to temp variations). Surface area inside the pot also effects how well heat is transfered from cpu die to cooling fluid.

There are some blinged with leds inside the pot also. Pretty sure that gets you -10C automatically. :rolleyes: just a quickstart here, do your research and make an informed decision. Most people start with DICE then get a good LN2 pot when they can - LN2 pots have slightly different rules than DICE pots also, so be aware of that.

According this this guy it can be used for both... is that possible?

[I.M.O.G.]

Btw, taking the step to a pot and going subzero... Besides the obvious direct advantages, the minute you mount a pot your potential is considerably increased. This has positive side effects:

1. People are suddenly even more eager to lend guidance
2. People are interested in watching you bench live (and they teach you thru livechat)
3. Its different than any overclocking you've done in the past, and its fun :D

So ya, I think this is a good decision, and you'll be happy with it. :thup:

Finally, this thread should be moved to the public benching section or the extreme cooling forum so other people can benefit from basic questions/answers like this - more guys going subzero, easy points for the team. You can move it using thread tools above your first post, and leave a permanent redirect so the benching guys still see it and offer you help.

[Joeteck]

Btw, taking the step to a pot and going subzero... Besides the obvious direct advantages, the minute you mount a pot your potential is considerably increased. This has positive side effects:

1. People are suddenly even more eager to lend guidance
2. People are interested in watching you bench live (and they teach you thru livechat)
3. Its different than any overclocking you've done in the past, and its fun :D

So ya, I think this is a good decision, and you'll be happy with it. :thup:

Finally, this thread should be moved to the public benching section or the extreme cooling forum so other people can benefit from basic questions/answers like this - more guys going subzero, easy points for the team. You can move it using thread tools above your first post, and leave a permanent redirect so the benching guys still see it and offer you help.

I just bought it. $105 shipped! WOOT! Please move it.

[I.M.O.G.]

Yes joe that's correct... Nothing stopping you for using it to drink whiskey either. However, pots designed for ln2 will tend to get you colder and you'll waste less material... That's the "theory" I've heard discussed. Read around tho and get input, other people know first hand.

Ps. Moving the thread was just advice, everyone in here has rights to do it themselves for their threads if they choose. I setup the rights so that there is a choice and its a team decision. I'm on my phone and don't have the option to do it for you right now either.

[Joeteck]

Yes joe that's correct... Nothing stopping you for using it to drink whiskey either. However, pots designed for ln2 will tend to get you colder and you'll waste less material... That's the "theory" I've heard discussed. Read around tho and get input, other people know first hand.


Thank you I will! This is so exciting! Now to get dry ice!

[dejo]

you are in for a whole new experience. and lots of fun

[EarthDog]

Joe, I have to mention since we have relatively similar systems and I just lost my DI virginity this past weekend (though I cant say I was terribly succesful), thats its an awesome experience. There is LOADS of advice already posted in our benching section that will help you out, definately take a look around or search first.

Brolloks experience going cold (I think its a sticky in the benching section) gives you some great advice and like IMOG and Hokie said, if you do it live, the ones that know will watch and help like they have done for me. FWIW, here is what I learned in my session from saturday...

*Preload all OS's (I did XP32 and V32), drivers, and benchmarks (I did this, nobody wants to watch you setup IMHO)

*Have your camera view on your setup and a monitor thats readable, otherwise, like I feel mine was, watching it sucks for others.

*Use a microphone so you can communicate with the viewers who are helping. Between having to shovel snow (DI), I had to reply via typing and that just made the process more stressful to me (My son is in the next room so I really couldnt without waking him, go figure Im a loud mouth :p).

*Just pick a couple of benchmarks, 2D your first time. That way you can get used to the benches, and the tweaks and knock out some solid scores.

*Be more prepared than I was for borked OS's. Meaning have an image of your setup benching OS (which should be super stripped down) in case your bork them. It takes just 10 minutes to load my XP and wish I would have had my optical handy so I could have continued.

Im not close to being an expert, but I think those little tid bits will help with destressing and making it a more pleasureable and effective (for boints) experience.

This weekend I think Im doing some 3d stuff (not 06 and vantage) with the 470 and an i5 550 I just bought. :)

GL to you man...

[Khemikal]

I really hope you got the priority shipping. That is the BIGGEST problem with the international shipping of these pots to the US. As Bartx posted yesterday somewhere, it takes about 3 months if you go normal shipping, but only 5-14 days if you go with priority shipping of some kind. For the extra $10-15 it really seems to be worth it.

[hokiealumnus]

Re: DICE pot vs. LN2 pot - the difference often amounts to mass.

LN2 pots tend to have more of it and are generally copper (as opposed to Al or Cu + AL). The more mass you have, the easier it is to control temperatures at or near the CB (cold bug) and/or CBB (cold boot bug) of your equipment.

DICE pots tend to have at least some Al (some are all Al, but that seems to be rare) and less mass than LN2 pots. Most equipment (except Kyles EVGA board) doesn't have CB or CBB above the temperature DICE can pull a pot too.

There is also a DICE trade off if you get an LN2 pot to use for DICE - that added mass makes it more difficult and more time consuming to pull the pot down to DICE's potential temperature. With decreased mass, the temp will pull down faster (hence being harder to control with LN2).

Moving thread for you since you asked. :)

[Joeteck]

Joe, I have to mention since we have relatively similar systems and I just lost my DI virginity this past weekend (though I cant say I was terribly succesful), thats its an awesome experience. There is LOADS of advice already posted in our benching section that will help you out, definately take a look around or search first.

Brolloks experience going cold (I think its a sticky in the benching section) gives you some great advice and like IMOG and Hokie said, if you do it live, the ones that know will watch and help like they have done for me. FWIW, here is what I learned in my session from saturday...

*Preload all OS's (I did XP32 and V32), drivers, and benchmarks (I did this, nobody wants to watch you setup IMHO)

*Have your camera view on your setup and a monitor thats readable, otherwise, like I feel mine was, watching it sucks for others.

*Use a microphone so you can communicate with the viewers who are helping. Between having to shovel snow (DI), I had to reply via typing and that just made the process more stressful to me (My son is in the next room so I really couldnt without waking him, go figure Im a loud mouth :p).

*Just pick a couple of benchmarks, 2D your first time. That way you can get used to the benches, and the tweaks and knock out some solid scores.

*Be more prepared than I was for borked OS's. Meaning have an image of your setup benching OS (which should be super stripped down) in case your bork them. It takes just 10 minutes to load my XP and wish I would have had my optical handy so I could have continued.

Im not close to being an expert, but I think those little tid bits will help with destressing and making it a more pleasureable and effective (for boints) experience.

This weekend I think Im doing some 3d stuff (not 06 and vantage) with the 470 and an i5 550 I just bought. :)

GL to you man...

Thanks Joe!

I don't plan on using my SIG equipment. I'll buy a new setup before that happens. :shock:
My current test guinea pig will be an E6750, P35 chipset. I was thinking of getting kingpins NB cooler too, for $55 bucks.. Seems like a good idea. I wanna get 100% deep into this... The e6750 without changing the voltage was 3.2Ghz on air. So I think I could get 4 to 4.5Ghz on DICE for my first true OC.

After that, its a core i3-530/540, and I'm going to blow the doors off of Bobnova's record!

Yes, you can consider that a threat! Muh ha ha haaaaaa.


hahaha LOL

[I.M.O.G.]

Earthdog, that's really good insight - ya you might not be a DICE expert yet, but with just getting started, avoiding the easy to make mistakes let's you focus on the more interesting problems and avoid distractions like you mentioned.

Joe - on that point, if you haven't yet configured an n/vlited benching OS, you'll want to take some images of your current setup and get those stripped down benching installs imaged so its easy to start fresh anytime you want/need to. There are nlite and vlite profiles around, and gautam shared some configuration details in his article that's the second most viewed all time in the left sidebar on the frontpage.

[EarthDog]

NB cooling is likely not needed, just put a fan pointing at it should suffice.

P35 chipset may not take you to the limit of your chip, depending on your board (X48 would likely be best for that)...you will have to play around, drop the multi and see where your FSB will take you.

[Joeteck]

Earthdog, that's really good insight - ya you might not be a DICE expert yet, but with just getting started, avoiding the easy to make mistakes let's you focus on the more interesting problems and avoid distractions like you mentioned.

Joe - on that point, if you haven't yet configured an n/vlited benching OS, you'll want to take some images of your current setup and get those stripped down benching installs imaged so its easy to start fresh anytime you want/need to. There are nlite and vlite profiles around, and gautam shared some configuration details in his article that's the second most viewed all time in the left sidebar on the frontpage.


I'll make up an image of the OS with Acronis. It literally takes 2 minutes to restore if it would take a dump.

Can I use two video camera's? One for the screen and one for the board and temperature meter...

[Joeteck]

I really hope you got the priority shipping. That is the BIGGEST problem with the international shipping of these pots to the US. As Bartx posted yesterday somewhere, it takes about 3 months if you go normal shipping, but only 5-14 days if you go with priority shipping of some kind. For the extra $10-15 it really seems to be worth it.


Thanks for the heads up! Read your post and then sent him a PM. Its Priority mail.

EDIT: 6 to 14 days!

[Bobnova]

Generally speaking, a dice pot has better temps for dice, and an LN2 pot has more temp stability for LN2.

LN2 in a dice pot you're pouring little bits really often.
Dice in a ln2 pot you're not getting as cold of temps as you could.


Examples:

My koolance rev2 gets temps around 12*c colder then a F1EE on dry ice. Huge!
However, the F1EE makes LN2 easy, the Koolance rev2? Not so much.
If your chip has no coldbug and no coldbootbug (like Phenom II's) the koolance gets colder temps on LN2, too.


That said, you can totally use a dice pot on LN2 and vice versa.

[I.M.O.G.]

I've got a cold question...

Last night I think most people implied Kyle's problem was the board causing the CBB. Miah and Brolloks both mentioned playing with settings could help get around it a bit - Ed said stuff about disabling some things in bios, setting them through ELEET. Miah mentioned tweaking some stuff also, but he had to go and his connection sucked.

So the question:

I've read a bit about current AMDs being a lot of fun on cold because they don't have coldbug problems... Do they not have any coldbug problems? Do they also not have ColdBoot bug problems?

Common sense tells me that if board related issues could cause CBB on Intel, then you'd still see CBB problems occasionally with some boards on AMD... Unless theres some architectural difference that is relevant to cold between the platforms. Thats entirely possible, but I just haven't heard much about cold bugs on current AMD stuff.

I was under the impression that the most pertinent item currently with coldbug related issues was the Intel IMC. Just trying to flesh out my understanding of the issue - what variables effect when it hits (hardware and settings). With talking about pots and temperature control, seems like a good time to ask.

[Dolk]

Cold bugs are more common on the CPU rather than the Board. For instance, the Intel CPUs have a cold bug, and the Cross IV also has a bit of a cold bug (doesn't like LHe).

AMD CPUs have no cold bug. You can put them at the coldest temperature and start them at stock settings and run it 24/7. It is because of this, that AMD is favored when playing with extreme temperatures. Its more a fun factor, not so much for the world record breaking though.

[Bobnova]

AMD cpus have no coldbug at all.
Some intel CPUs have no cold bug, but intel boards have a tendency towards bugging too.

My theory is that it is because of the different ways to protect against CPU overheating and meltdown.

AMDs is entirely on chip, while Intels is on the chip and the motherboard.
Intels works better (can't fry 'em) then AMDs (can fry 'em, but it's hard), but causes more issues when cold.

That's just my personal theory though.

[I.M.O.G.]

Gotcha, cool.

[David]

I have a slightly silly question:

We obtain -18C in the lab by using acetone/ice. Would this be worth testing out on a benching system? The ice will melt faster than dry CO2 will, and you'll get water so you need to start from half-full at best (probably want to pre-cool the pot before switching on) but it might be a cheaper option than dice.

David

[EarthDog]

My thought is that wouldnt the pot fill up with water? Where does the water go when melted? In the pot right? The C02 just evaps into the air, right?

[Bobnova]

You'd be sucking water out of the pot a lot, but other then that it would totally work.

You'd need a lot of ice though.

[EarthDog]

And a lot of suction. There would be more risk with that method I would imagine...

[Dolk]

What you need david, is one of those cold lasers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cooling

Last I heard, they got 1 point away from absolute Zero with that technique.

[David]

You'd need to make it half-full first, then add ice to it as it melts, perhaps. Ideally you'd want to put the pot in the freezer overnight first maybe.

It's probably a stopgap option really.

[EarthDog]

Wouldnt the pot just fill up? Im asking where the water goes....the process of using such a dangerous substance and adding another process to remove the water, just doesnt sound like it would be worth it. When do you tweak? Between adding ice and sucking it out?

Excuse my ignornace. :)

[Joe Camel]

.




if your going to try to use H2o Ice, i would go for an ice water TEC loop
or just straight ice water loop.

get a submersible pump, a BIG ol' cooler, many bags of ice, and then either a "normal" water-block or a TEC / water-block.
the real trick is the insulation of the loop since the water running through it is "ice"water, the tubing will need to be insulated.


here is a pic of a Viper John TEC water-block setup for ice water
(x1900XTX Master card)

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1933/pict00391qo.jpg





:rain:

LOOONG story short, your going to go through a LOT of work and not be satisfied with a H2o Ice setup... just go D-ice. :p






.

[Bobnova]

I did that on a CPU, it was my first extreme cooling setup.
It ate 12lbs of ice in a bit over an hour, and got down to -20ish on the cold side of the tec.