Recommendations?

[Ross]

I am not an avid gamer, so I don't want to spend $300+ on a card. I do a lot of multimedia/web graphics though and play games occasionally, so I want something decent, but not necessarily "cutting edge".

Unfortunately, as much as I have tried looking at specs and features, the number of cards/brands/GPUs is freaking mind-boggling. One thing that did stick in my brain is that the Geforce is better than ATI (I have an ancient ATI card now) and Gainward or MSI are the cards to get...though the ABITs looked OK to me as well.

I guess the first question I need to ask is do the LCD monitors still use the standard VGA plug or do I need to be looking for a card with a DVI plug as well (I have a VGA now, but would like to upgrade to an LCD monitor when the prices drop :)

Even that's not that big of a deal. If I am going to spend a few hundred $$ on an LCD monitor down the road, I'll get another card if I need to. Any other card features would strictly be optional. I don't particularly need a dual monitor setup (if LCDs work on DVI plugs, DVI+VGA outs would be nice though) or S-cable in/out.

I've seen GF3/Ti500s going pretty cheap in auctions (~$100) and GF 4/MX440s for the same or a less. If I remember what I've seen correctly, an O/C'd Ti500 should have no problem running as well or better than a GF4 MX4x0? Sound about right?

Thanks for any suggestions...

[Penguin4x4]

Finally, someone who thinks like I do. Most LCDs have VGA and DVI inputs. I would recomend that you wait until Maximum PC releases their August issue, with an LCD vs. CRT showdown using high-end multimedia and office apps, as well as gaming perfromance. I would go ahead and buy a top of the line card, then 5 years or so down the road, buy [I]that[/] year's top of the line card. If this is not applicable, then I would go with a Leadtek WinFast Titanium 500TD, ATI Radeon 7500, 8 or VisionTek Xtasy GeForce

[advanR]

brief overview.

MX cards are garbage, well not necessarily, but relatively speaking. They have no directx 8 functions, and are basically fast gforce 2mx.

Cards under your consideration are probably
-gf3 ti200 or ti500 $90~170
-gf4 ti4200 64mb, 128mb $150-220
-various 8500 le, retail, 64mb, 128mbetc. $98~150?

gf3 ti500 shouldnt really be consideration as ti 200 is almost as good stock or equal w/ OC, and ti500 still cost a rediculous amount of money. Both quite slower than 8500.

gf4 ti4200 are good fast gamer cards, fastest of the 3, most are bare though, and I dont find performance worth price difference of next choice.

8500 are fast, cheap and offer good extras. Bit slower than 4200. 8500s have varying clock speeds based on version. OEM, retail, LE. Some still think ati drivers are ****, but they are great now.


I think 8500 fits you perfectly. And a particular deal available blows away other options IMO. $98 gets you a 64mb 8500 clocked at 250/275 and has very fast 3.3ns mem. Retail speeds are 275/275. OEM, LE are usually 250/250, 230/230 or combinations. Most 8500 have 4ns or nwer retail have 3.6ns.

8500 has DVI, awesome tv-out, and vga. You can use dvi to vga adapter to use 2 vga moniters. This particular card though only has 1 RAMDAC so 2 vga option is not possible. But DVI and tvout still work great.

Deal is at newegg.com and got one for myself about 2 weeks ago. I'm very happy with everything including stability, and I havent even tried the new Cat drivers yet.

[Penguin4x4]

Originally posted by Penguin4x4
Finally, someone who thinks like I do. Most LCDs have VGA and DVI inputs. I would recomend that you wait until Maximum PC releases their August issue, with an LCD vs. CRT showdown using high-end multimedia and office apps, as well as gaming perfromance. I would go ahead and buy a top of the line card, then 5 years or so down the road, buy [I]that[/] year's top of the line card. If this is not applicable, then I would go with a Leadtek WinFast Titanium 500TD

<Edit>ATI Radeon 7500, 8500LE, 8500 64/128, or 8500DV, or VisionTek, MSI, or Gainward Geforce 4 Ti4200. Line crapped out. Sorry:rolleyes:

[advanR]

IMO 7500 are really slow for not much less, 8500dv are really slow also. And gainward 128mb 4200 not worth it as its pushing close to 4400 price which would OC much better. Gainward 64mb uses cheap high speed 3.5ns mem that misleads enthusiasts, this mem is cheap and OCs worse than other brand 4ns.

EDIT: Gainwards were great for gf3, and are great if you have the $$ for the top end gf4s, but I think theyre not worth $$ for 4200s. I'd go gainward ti 200 no doubt if you want a gf3, however I wouldnt buy a gf3 for the price which I could get the 8500s. They are much better.

[Yodums]

Getting a real good video card won't really benefit since the bottle neck would be mainly your chip.

I think you should go for like a ATI Radeon 8500LE.

It's fairly cheap 100.00, and a real bang for the buck.

Yodums

[advanR]

The 8500 runs great on my "POS" 700E p3 @945. 3dmark of 6200ish with 279/324 OC. Thats with omegas, which are known to do worse in 3dmark. I have yet to try the new catalysts.

In SOF2 and MOHAA I run 1024res 4xaf 4xaa flawlessly. When I upgrade my cpu I will see the performance scale upwards to 12000 marks with a NW at 2.5ish

Performance is limited a bit by cpu, but is still really great and will increase a lot with cpu upgrade.

[Ross]

Thanks for the posts everyone! So ATI isn't as bad as everyone makes them out to be? Or at least not for a pro gamer :) OK, if I can hold off until August for a card, I will. The ATI that I have now (All-In-Wonder PRO from 1998!) is holding back my CPU O/C and I am not sure why. I think it's voltage more than PCI bus speeds because it starts crapping out only 5-6MHz FSB over the jumper setting, which is nothing at the PCI bus (1-2MHz more)...or maybe it's just finally getting old.

Anyway, at least I know I can look for a card w/o DVI if it comes down to price. I guess I can spend the cheese on good card if I know it will work with an LCD down the road.

So Raedon 8500LE or DV, GF4 Ti4200, and possibly still a Gainward GF3 Ti200/500 depending on price. OK, cool! Thanks much everyone. Now that you've helped narrow it down to a few instead of thousands, I'll be able to more easily to check them out...

Yeah, newegg is awesome. In another few weeks I'll be hitting them up for a mobo (still trying to decide on which one), P4 2.26B, and RDRAM (although I'd like to wait until these are 32-bit and only need one instead of a pair!)...maybe I'll tack on a vid card as well :D

Thanks agian everyone!

[Zerileous]

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$113.00

this isnt a bad card on newegg, but as said earlier, youl have to overcome the bottleneck in your proc to get full use.

[Ross]

Damn the vid card section rocks! I've made posts in other sections, some without so much as a response. I know you replied to mine in case/PSUs 4x4...thanks :D Here I get a bunch of replies, good info and links.

The CPU won't be a bottleneck for long :D I am just getting all of the peripheral stuff done (cooling, PSU mods, cards, etc.) so I can just order the mobo/CPU/RAM, dump it in and go from 2.26 to 2.8-3.0(?)GHz in about 5 min. :D I am a first-time O/Cer and just wanted to start with an old 633 I had "just in case". Hopefully by the time I am done with the rest of the stuff, the prices on CPUs/PC1066 will be down even more. The CPUs seem to drop almost daily...

[Penguin4x4]

Ross, if you plan to use DVI, brand doesn't matter, however, if you use an analog monitor, ie. CRT/VGA LCD, the ATI's have better 2D/Picture quailty, an do not forget to
PICK UP THE AUGUST ISSUE OF MAXIMUM PC!!!!
k?:D :beer:

[Ross]

I'll keep an eye out for a card with both to keep my options open. OK, OK, I'll definitely pick up the August issue of Maximum PC!! :D Any idea about what week of the month they come out? Will the GF5s be out by then or something? :D Is it just me, or is there a GF GPU upgrade like every 3 months? Hehe...

[Penguin4x4]

Nope, Ross, every 6 months, in fact.:mad: *******s,:rolleyes:. Issue should be out in 3-6 weeks, GeForce 5's around September. Remember 9/2002 as "September 2 Remember II", ok?:beer: :beer:

[advanR]

Based on most magazines i can estimate it will be out in a week or two.

Now that you understand most current video cards what you have to do is basically see what the price situation is right when you are about to make a purchase. Video card prices always change often, and with the upcoming cards things will be changing again more rapidly.

A few months ago I would never consider buying an ATI card but recently the prices have dropped so far that I actually bought an 8500. So right now I would say definately that the $98 "bulk" 8500 is the best card for the money(which has DVI), but the best choice will probably change between now and August.

Try and check back then, because when prices change something else will probably be better.

[Ross]

Yeah, when I first looked at cards, they had GF2s and GF3s on the shelf. Two weeks later, they had GF2, GF3, and GF4s. I was like WTF? Too bad Intel doesn't move that fast...we'd be O/Cing for 5.0GHz instead of 3! Suprising that the price of the "old" GPU cards are not going down more (except the GF2 MX stuff, which they can't seem to give away)...

Doubt I can wait until Sept. for a GF5. I'll be lucky if I can wait for the August issue to come out :D Guess I'll have to upgrade something else in the meantime to hold me over...I might "have" to go P4 before the vid card ;)

For sheer laughter, I benched my Intel 810E on-board chip in my HP POS (1.2 Tually Celeron, my "daily" thing for the time being) with 3DMark2k1...scored a wicked 515!! I updated the drivers and did it again and managed a 510 :eek: Talk about updated drivers..

My ATI in the O/C setup is so old, I can't even bench it. XP bitches about the drivers and 3DMark complains about the DirectX and/or drivers and/or problems with the card....even after I installed what ATI calls "XP" drivers for it. Frankly, I am surprised the monitor even turns on...

[Ross]

advanR--

I hear ya, the question is how long will I be able to contain myself waiting on the prices to change :) I've been sitting on the P4 upgrade for about a month now. Like I said in the last post, the GF3s don't seem to be dropping in price that much even though the 4s have been out for a few months. If the 5 is coming out that soon, maybe in a few weeks, the GF3s will be like the 2s are now and I can pick one up cheap.

I am definitely going to look again at the ATIs. Just the fact that mine has lasted 4 years, been in 4 PCs, and still works is something to be said for them. Oh yeah, I bought it used to begin with!

The real problem was narrowing it down to a hand full, which I definitely appreciate the help with. My biggest problem was having no idea where to start.

[Penguin4x4]

I'd go with the fastest board, use it for 5-8 years, replace with the fastest board then; repeat.:D

[Ross]

Argh. Maybe I'll scrap the ~$100-125 idea and just go with a GF5? Decisions, decisions. :confused: Damn. No, I can't waver now. The P4 upgrade will only cost $400-$450...I don't think I can qualify spending just as much on ONE card :D Besides, the less I spend on a card now, the sooner I can get the LCD monitor :) Once I get that, I'll probably be a little more motivated to get a kick @$$ card...probably a GF10 (1.0GHz 512MB 2.0ns RDRAM with it's own 120mm HSF) by then!

[advanR]

By no means wait if you dont need too. I thought that you said you were going to purchase a card in August. If you need a card now get one without regret later. gf3s and 8500s are already at $100 or less.

If you say that you are waiting, then I would keep an eye on gf3s and 8500s and see how the prices compare and which prices drop more.

If I saw a gf3 at $80, I would still get the 8500 at $100. Things would have to approach the 70/100 mark before I considered the other choice.


Now for my decision of when to upgrade my cpu/mobo and whether to wait for dual channel DDR for p4 or to go with RDRAM!?!?:mad: :(

[Penguin4x4]

ROFLMFAO! RDRAM will go under in 18 months or less, mark my words!!!!!! That would be GeForce 17, actually, :rolleyes:.

[Ross]

advanR--

Unless for some reason, the old ATI completely dies on me, I don't *need* a card anytime soon....more like I want one. You know how that goes :)

4x4/advanR--

I am still up in the air about the type of RAM. At first I had decided to play it safe and go with a 1.8A and DDR. Cheaper and it's entirely possible to run 2.6+GHz. Not to mention the fact that this will be my first P4 setup.

When the price on the "B" NWs dropped, I said maybe I'd go that route instead. Right now, DDR400 is only able to keep up with PC800 RDRAM and PC1066 just blows it away. The 800 sticks are the same price, but you still need two of the Rambus, so that's double the cost. From everything I've heard, DDR is a liability in O/Cing 2.4+ CPUs, not that there aren't people with wicked clocks on 2.4/2.53s and DDR, but I think more often than not, RDRAM is more successful. I thought the dual channel DDR was ficticious ;) Is it seriously going to be released? How about a chipset to run it?

Ah, maybe I'll just middle-line it with the 1.8A/DDR333-400 and wait to see what happens....

[Penguin4x4]

ETA on dual channel DDR is 1st Quarter 2003. Mishkin PC1066 set to 3x RAM Multiplier can do 210MHz FSB, or 5.1GBp/s. a good peltier/water cooling setup on that mobo and on a 2.53 GHz NW, and, poof, 4GHz. Pipe dream of a mine, but possible,(Gigabyte GA-8IHXP, PCI/AGP buses locked at default,). Adamant.com has this mobo/proc combo for $800...Sheish........but a good deal IMHO.

[advanR]

Are there any board manufacturers making boards with the via p4x333 chipset? I guess this chipset looks like its definately the best, but no one uses it?? If board makers are afraid to produce via p4 boards now, what will change in the future to make them use the dual channel ddr chipset? My main guess would be that the shear power of the board will make them take the risk, but I don't know.

[Ross]

4x4-- 4GHz would be sweet. I am sure that Intel will be breaking the 3GHz barrier soon. I dunno how much they can squeeze out of the .13 die though (3.5?) and who knows how much smaller they can make it. If they make a 3GHz+ CPU on the NW chip, it will probably O/C like a pig. How much room can possibly be left in it? Has anyone made a successful 4GHz O/C yet, or even close? That would rock...

I'll stay away from watercooling for the time being...doesn't look like anything I'd want to get into at the moment (I'd actually have to clean off my desk to make room for a resevoir!). I'll definitely be ready to upgrade whatever I have by the beginning of 2003, so I just need to decide what to get now and then worry about what's out in 6-8 months.

advanR-- I know I have seen some...maybe Tweakers.com.au? From what I've seen for DDR boards though, the SiS645DX/691B looks great (533 bus). Even the regular 645/961s aren't bad for an A NW (400 bus). I know a few people with 1.8As running air cooled ~2.6-2.8 on the reg. 645 Not too many "cheap" boards have the DX yet though (Soyo Dragron Ultra, ASUS P4S533, etc.). I think they are all in the $130+ range and have their own O/C limitations (Vc, PCI/AGP locks, etc.). Why can't one board just have everything you need? 100-200MHZ FSB, Vc up to 1.9ish, PCI/AGP locks, and good mem multipliers???? I'd pay $150 for a board like that.

My Shuttle has a VIA chipset. I certainly can't complain about it's O/C ability....especially with the 2 year old POS ram stick (CL2-100/CL3-133). Most people running 633s much higher than mine are watercooled and are only 100-200MHz more at that (probably on PC-150 too). I looked around a lot at chipsets for P4s and you're right, no one seems to care about the VIAs at all. Beats me. SiS645DX is what I have in mind for a 2.26 and 645 for a 1.8A. There are plenty of $80-$100 boards with them, so there are options when looking for mobos with good O/C capabilities. Abit and EpOX have a few cheap 645-based boards that look worthwhile...at least with minimal effort (BIOS flash/minor mods).

As for the future...who knows. I thought the dual-channel DDR was just "talk"...though almost a year away, it is :) I've already seen talk of RDRAM replacements (QDRAM/QERAM was it? Qsomething :), so who knows. I do believe both are nearing/at their limits with current setups (DDR400/PC1200). Unless the dual-channel DDR is true, there is no way they'll there will be DDR533 to compete with PC1066, which is what was making me think about a RDRAM board to begin with.