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Tesselation -> nVIdia's DX11 win?

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diaz

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
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Canada
In other words, is tesselation the next big thing in DX11 gaming? We have all seen the benches where the GTX480 and GTX470 leave a very impressive gap over the 5870, is this the main feature of DX11? What are the other features that come with DX11?

-D
 
So Tesselation, improved multi-threaded CPU support and GPGPU..

Tessellation and GPGPU both sound like nVidia's bag...

But the question still remains with where the gaming industry is going with DX11. If all games come out with tessellation, or is this a feature like AA/AF which you can force?
 
So Tesselation, improved multi-threaded CPU support and GPGPU..

Tessellation and GPGPU both sound like nVidia's bag...

But the question still remains with where the gaming industry is going with DX11. If all games come out with tessellation, or is this a feature like AA/AF which you can force?

If not mistaken the Tessellation amount can be forced or have different settings. Forgot there was a game that does it, either Metro 2033 or that new AvP game forgot which were you can tweak the tessellation setting.

IMO I think Tessellation is one of the biggest things to finally come forward in cards today. It can add an incrediable amount of detail with not nearly as huge of a performance hit as by other means.
 
So Tesselation, improved multi-threaded CPU support and GPGPU..

Tessellation and GPGPU both sound like nVidia's bag...

But the question still remains with where the gaming industry is going with DX11. If all games come out with tessellation, or is this a feature like AA/AF which you can force?

As far as I have seen, yet, GPGPU is ATI's "bag". Only F@H is currently faster on NVIDIA GPU's, as it has a crappy ATI implementation, but that is likely to change when they turn to opencl.

Also NVIDIA has cut double precision (which is mainly for GPGPU) of the GTX 4xx to 25% of it's capabilities, so that you have to buy a Tesla/Quadro to get the full GPGPU power.

In case of Tesselation the GTX4xx wins.

[EDIT] Does anyone know of any comparisons of Unigine 1 vs 2? I'd really be interested in how strong the visual difference is.
 
As far as I have seen, yet, GPGPU is ATI's "bag". Only F@H is currently faster on NVIDIA GPU's, as it has a crappy ATI implementation, but that is likely to change when they turn to opencl.

Also NVIDIA has cut double precision (which is mainly for GPGPU) of the GTX 4xx to 25% of it's capabilities, so that you have to buy a Tesla/Quadro to get the full GPGPU power.

In case of Tesselation the GTX4xx wins.

Nice to know... I though the whole point of Tesla/Quadro was 64-bit something.. lol excuse the ignorance. :D

So I guess nVidia is the gaming king for DX11 then!

In case of all around gaming according to techpowerup, then things look pretty tight between the 5850/470/5870/480 ->

But then things start to shift around very fast when top tessellation is added:

(avg/min)
5850 (17/7) ** 5870 (19/7) ** GTX 470 (23/14) ** GTX 480 (30/18)

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,...Fermi-performance-benchmarks/Reviews/?page=16

I know its a little controversial as a bench, adding AI and physics would probably blur the results a bit more in-game.. but still, the fact remains that these cards are supposed to be introducing DX11, so they should be proficient at pulling that off - IMO GTX400 wins all the way.

-D
 
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From what I've been reading on various forums, it seems there is a lot more to this 'tessellation' thing than I thought.

ATI uses 1 hardware tessellation unit. Nvidia uses 16 tessellation units that are emulated within the CUDA cores. Currently, ATI's tessellation is not aided by the Stream Processors, whereas Nvidia's SP's are what does it. This is one of the major reasons the tessellation performance difference in Unigine Heaven bench is so huge; NV's cores are constantly being used for emulating Tessellation, while ATI's are only partially used for everything else and only the 1 hardware tessellation unit is being used for tessellation. Once there are moving players/monsters and fighting going on and physics being processed, those shader cores need to process a lot more so there is less room for processing tessellation. This is why the performance gap is smaller in actual games.

Currently, ATI is working on changing this within the drivers so that the Stream Processors will aid the Tessellation Unit with processing tessellation. Supposedly this change will be released with the 10.5 drivers and will be the first large tessellation-based improvement.

They're also working to further improve tessellation by making the cache work better between the tessellation unit and the SP's, which is going to be in the 11.0 Catalyst drivers.

Also, it's likely they're increasing the amount of Hardware Tessellation units in the 5xxx refresh. Very likely even further improved in the 6xxx series.

At this point it's very hard to tell if Nvidia is only 'temporarily' better in tessellation, or if they'll hold on to this for a while. Based on the improvements ATI will be making, I'm not doubting at all that the difference in the near future between both will be much smaller than today, for tessellation performance.
 
From what I've been reading on various forums, it seems there is a lot more to this 'tessellation' thing than I thought.

ATI uses 1 hardware tessellation unit. Nvidia uses 16 tessellation units that are emulated within the CUDA cores. Currently, ATI's tessellation is not aided by the Stream Processors, whereas Nvidia's SP's are what does it. This is one of the major reasons the tessellation performance difference in Unigine Heaven bench is so huge; NV's cores are constantly being used for emulating Tessellation, while ATI's are only partially used for everything else and only the 1 hardware tessellation unit is being used for tessellation. Once there are moving players/monsters and fighting going on and physics being processed, those shader cores need to process a lot more so there is less room for processing tessellation. This is why the performance gap is smaller in actual games.

Currently, ATI is working on changing this within the drivers so that the Stream Processors will aid the Tessellation Unit with processing tessellation. Supposedly this change will be released with the 10.5 drivers and will be the first large tessellation-based improvement.

They're also working to further improve tessellation by making the cache work better between the tessellation unit and the SP's, which is going to be in the 11.0 Catalyst drivers.

Interesting... what is your source? Link?

Edit: after googling, I found that the 10.5 beta is already out, and being use to make unigine 2.0 function. Doesn't seem to provide any type of tessellation improvement..?
 
Interesting... what is your source? Link?

Edit: after googling, I found that the 10.5 beta is already out, and being use to make unigine 2.0 function. Doesn't seem to provide any type of tessellation improvement..?

There's bits and pieces all over various forums, one being this:

http://www.overclock.net/8863182-post110.html

Waiting to see if it really happens. Sounds promising, but we'll see.

10.5 aren't officially released yet so the beta probably doesn't have all the changes.
 
Edit: after googling, I found that the 10.5 beta is already out, and being use to make unigine 2.0 function. Doesn't seem to provide any type of tessellation improvement..?

Looking around now to see what kind of improvements there are, and I think tessellation might have improved a little:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showpost.php?p=1336214965&postcount=37

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showpost.php?p=1336214735&postcount=34

Indirect assumption but possible; both of those are instances where tessellation will severely lower performance and it increasing by that much is a good indication that it could be optimized a bit. Still incomplete drivers so it might not be the true result.

Reading through that thread some more is showing mixed results, so that could be a very early beta or maybe not even real 10.5's. Catalyst Maker says he does not know what that driver is.
 
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I guess time will tell... I hope ATi's tessellation gets better, put a little heat on nVidia..

-D
 
I can hardly believe that there is already information about Catalyst 11.0

Especially as that one will never exist, they'll start with 11.1 in January 2011, and it is very likely that this driver will focus on the then-available HD6000 series, which will likely have improvements over the current tesselation engine, anyways.
 
Considering that they have most likely already started design work on the 6000 series, i don't see why a really early driver might be in development.
That said, i don't see it being anywhere near functional or useful at this point.
 
Considering that they have most likely already started design work on the 6000 series, i don't see why a really early driver might be in development.
That said, i don't see it being anywhere near functional or useful at this point.

Well, according to Semi Accurate:

ATI IS ON A ROLL, having taped out its next generation GPU family called Southern Islands. ATI might call it the HD6xxx series, and it could be out before Nvidia gets its GTX4xx line of GPUs fully fleshed out and to market.

The news is straightforward enough. Southern Islands (SI) taped out recently, and is now moving through TSMC. Although the schedule is very tight, if all goes really well we could see a demo or two at Computex in just over a month. This puts SI slightly behind where Evergreen was a year ago, but not by much.

Southern Islands is said to be a hybrid between the all new Northern Islands (NI) and the current HD5xxx Evergreen family. Those in the loop say that Northern Islands was meant to be on TSMC 32nm before that process was killed. Due to the ever-slipping nature of TSMC's 28nm high-K metal gate node, the SI hybrid GPU was slapped together to be fabbed on TSMC's current 40nm process.

Sources tell SemiAccurate that SI uses some of the NI uncore (unshader?), and wraps that around a mildly updated Evergreen shader. RAM is more of an open question. NI was set to use GDDR5+, but since DRAM makers might not be ready, we may end up with only GDDR5 on SI.

In any case, Nvidia has come out fighting with its GTX470 and GTX480, shipping hundreds, some say thousands, of units since ATI shipped Evergreen last September. If all goes well, and it appears to be doing just that, ATI might have Southern Islands on sale before Nvidia gets all of the GTX4xx variants out the door. The end of 2010 will see Nvidia fighting a new ATI line with a year late part that doesn't work within the promised specs, and can't be manufactured.

By the time Nvidia gets to 28nm next year, or possibly in 'GTX480' quantities this year, it is going to be fighting yet another new generation of ATI parts, Northern Islands. If the rumors are true, and the upcoming Fermi II is on TSMC's 28nm bulk process, and NI comes out on GloFo's 28nm high-K metal gate process, Nvidia won't even be in the game.

At this point, you really have to ask yourself if Nvidia will survive. Its chipset business is gone because it didn't understand Moore's law. Its GPU business is like a floating goldfish circling the drain. Its GPU compute business is wounded. And Tegra is being laughed out the door. Meanwhile, ATI is on a roll.

Interesting stuff.
 
Well, if you put the standard BSometer to it, it still looks good for ATI.
Nvidia isn't going anywhere though, at least count they had 3x the cash on hand ATI has (3 billion to 1 billion), and their parent company isn't woefully in the red.

Enough people have gotten fermis that they must have shipped at least a few thousand, there are still a few 480s around to be found.

I'd be mighty pumped if the ATI stuff was half true. Fermi II should be a beast too, I'm hoping it's Fermi with more double precision FP unlocked and running at a reasonable power draw. That'd allow a 495! What a card that'd be.
 
Hmm.. Interesting. 40 to 28 is a pretty big jump! That would be a welcome shrink for the GTX series.

-D
 
What seems to be happening right now is NV pushing for Tessellation, ATI not having cared for it because of obvious reasons (very few games use heavy tessellation) and now ATI trying to catch up on it all of a sudden.

Releasing new cards and refreshes is all fine, but the hardware is so far ahead of games now that what I'd like to see most is more than 1 game actually making use of it. If at least a good amount of games started using heavy tessellation... ok, maybe not 'most' but at least 50% of games that come out on PC... then it might be a bigger incentive to care which card can utilize it better.

As it is right now, one benchmark and one game just do not give me enough reason to upgrade GPU. Regardless of what 6xxx series or fermi2 or whatever comes out... show me games that use the hardware!
 
If the refresh cards come out in 2011, the GPUs will have finally caught up with gaming technology. But do you REALLY think that nVidia/ATi + partners are going to let that happen? Just wait for 1-2 GPU-killing titles before the end of 2010. Give gamers a reason to keep looking for the next GPU.

EDIT: Crysis 2 current release date is 4th quarter 2010... how convenient! Rumors are that people think the graphics wont be as good because of the PS3/360 console implementation, but on incrysis they say that crytek will not hold back on eye candy for the PC version...

-D
 
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If the refresh cards come out in 2011, the GPUs will have finally caught up with gaming technology. But do you REALLY think that nVidia/ATi + partners are going to let that happen? Just wait for 1-2 GPU-killing titles before the end of 2010. Give gamers a reason to keep looking for the next GPU.

EDIT: Crysis 2 current release date is 4th quarter 2010... how convenient! Rumors are that people think the graphics wont be as good because of the PS3/360 console implementation, but on incrysis they say that crytek will not hold back on eye candy for the PC version...

-D

Crysis 2 is set for release within the next 6 months, it could be as early as late summer. You can bet that's probably the deadline ATI is looking to meet with the 6000 series with the 7000 series coming out late 2011.

It's interesting that Crytek hasn't shown any proper footage of Crysis 2 running maxed out on PC, part of me suspects this is because it will blunt the hype for the console versions if the PC version looks that much better.
 
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