NV35, cheating, 3DMark, and DOOM

cruc1fy · May 17, 2003

We've all seen the nVidia may have "cheated" with their FX drivers and 3DMark, evident by the FX outclassing the 9800 in 3DMark but not other directX benchies...

but what about DOOM3? I mean, look at all the D3 benchmarking with the FX versus the 9800.

HardOCP.com
To make an excruciatingly long story...not so long, we built a machine here to test DOOM 3 on. However, due to strenuous hardware security measures taken by id and NVIDIA to protect the DOOM 3 data from leaks, we were not able to use the scripted tools that were to make our benchmarking much speedier. To outline the facts we: A. Benchmarked on hardware put together and owned by HardOCP. B. Benchmarked using a demo recorded by id at the id offices the day of the benchmarking previously unseen by NVIDIA. c. No scripting language coded by NVIDA was used.

fook 3DMark... if the FX straight up beats the 9800 in DOOM3, then the FX wins in my eyes, since DOOM3 (and thus Quake4) is all that really matters to me (in the gaming world).

CrashOveride · May 17, 2003

cruc1fy said:
We've all seen the nVidia may have "cheated" with their FX drivers and 3DMark, evident by the FX outclassing the 9800 in 3DMark but not other directX benchies...

but what about DOOM3? I mean, look at all the D3 benchmarking with the FX versus the 9800.

fook 3DMark... if the FX straight up beats the 9800 in DOOM3, then the FX wins in my eyes, since DOOM3 (and thus Quake4) is all that really matters to me (in the gaming world).

meh, we should just wait... the only thig i really care about is Quake 4, why make one? just make D00M 3 multiplayer... we dont need another quake however great the others where, theres no story to it as far as i can remember....

flux · May 17, 2003

meh, we should just wait... the only thig i really care about is Quake 4, why make one? just make D00M 3 multiplayer... we dont need another quake however great the others where, theres no story to it as far as i can remember....

Actually there is. In Q1 your a soldier type dood and there are these portals... well it's really boring really, and no-one really cared. In Q2 though, you are retalliating against a species called the Strogg on their home planet. Although they weren't actually the ones from Q1, they just seem to be appropriate scapegoats. In Q3 you get selected to fight in an eternal league by some kind of god-like beings.

Actually looking back on it they don't seem particuarly related... but the story is there!!

CrashOveride · May 18, 2003

right there is not countinuing story is what i meant, they are all weird... ht only reason woudl be to continuse the saga... but just do it with doom no reasont to make Q4... (despite how much i liked quake 1...)

DaddyB · May 18, 2003

Nvidia has been using doom 3 benchmarks since the 9700 was released (well a little while after it was released but long long before the FX5800 was even reviewed). That leads me to believe nvidia has at least been optimizing the drivers for doom 3 all along but quite possibly they built the card to play doom 3 (ie. they talked to ID and found out exactly what their card would need to do well to play doom 3 well). ATi on the other hand probably never really optimized their drivers for doom 3, as was shown by the catalyst drivers in [H]'s 5900 review - in the newest set they had at the time doom 3 only got 10fps in all resolutions (obviously a driver issue). ATi more then likely knew nothing about doom 3 being used in the 5900 and probably didn't plan on optimizing drivers for doom 3 until it was a little closer to actually coming out. There is after all no point in optimizing drivers for a game that isn't even done yet.

Just my take on the situation, the ATi cards will do way better (then they are doing now) when doom 3 is actually out or possibly sooner if they felt that it left a bad mark on the 9800 in the 5900 reviews.

CrashOveride · May 18, 2003

DaddyB said:
Nvidia has been using doom 3 benchmarks since the 9700 was released (well a little while after it was released but long long before the FX5800 was even reviewed). That leads me to believe nvidia has at least been optimizing the drivers for doom 3 all along but quite possibly they built the card to play doom 3 (ie. they talked to ID and found out exactly what their card would need to do well to play doom 3 well). ATi on the other hand probably never really optimized their drivers for doom 3, as was shown by the catalyst drivers in [H]'s 5900 review - in the newest set they had at the time doom 3 only got 10fps in all resolutions (obviously a driver issue). ATi more then likely knew nothing about doom 3 being used in the 5900 and probably didn't plan on optimizing drivers for doom 3 until it was a little closer to actually coming out. There is after all no point in optimizing drivers for a game that isn't even done yet.

Just my take on the situation, the ATi cards will do way better (then they are doing now) when doom 3 is actually out or possibly sooner if they felt that it left a bad mark on the 9800 in the 5900 reviews.

i agree and think that ATi will be on top until the next gen of Nvida cards and possibly longer

hardcorecomp · May 18, 2003

ATI will be on top for a little while longer. I would say until the end of the year. Nvidia got blown away by the 9700. If they do not come back from the bottom by the end of the year, they will have to create drivers that cheat all benchmarking programs

baraka · May 18, 2003

Even [H] recognized that their DOOM3 comparison had limitations:

From the same [H] article as cruc1fy quoted
DOOM 3 is likely to have more impact on the gaming and hardware industries overall than any other game to come in the next decade, as it is surely one of those quantum leaps in technology that are becoming so rare. NVIDIA is obviously aware of this and doing everything they can to be the DOOM 3 video card. It is far too early to count ATI out of the race, and I would not consider the comparison shown here to be final or anything close to it.

OC Noob · May 18, 2003

What is the relationship between ID/Carmack and NVidia?

knif_00 · May 18, 2003

oh boy

both these games are basically "bang bang shoot em up" nonsense. . grab the nearest rocket/grenade launcher and aim at the feet. *yawn* it gets old after a day. . .
Ill take some quality BF1942 anyday.
Lets just wait till both next gen cards are out and fully functional with final drivers then we will see who wins the war.
my vote, always has and always will be for SiS. . . i mean ATi!

Evnas · May 18, 2003

Re: oh boy

knif_00 said:
both these games are basically "bang bang shoot em up" nonsense. . grab the nearest rocket/grenade launcher and aim at the feet. *yawn* it gets old after a day. . .
Ill take some quality BF1942 anyday.
Lets just wait till both next gen cards are out and fully functional with final drivers then we will see who wins the war.
my vote, always has and always will be for SiS. . . i mean ATi!

Ive played the Alpha, and Doom 3 definatly wont just be a "grab the nearest rocket/grenade launcher and aim at the feet." game. The damn nice graphics, teamed up with the best sound ive ever heard in a game, and what seemed like a very nice story line, Doom 3 is gonna be one hell of a game.

cruc1fy · May 18, 2003

Why Quake4? Because DOOM3 isn't intended to be a good game, rather it's a technology showcase (good engine)...

Carmack said that if it's a good game, that's a bonus.

About the id/nVidia relationship: they are working very close together in the development process of both products (nV3x/4x and DOOM3 engine). It thus follows that nVidia will put out a card more suited to run the DOOM3 engine (ie the engine of many future advanced games) than will ATi.

MoonWolf · May 18, 2003

Nvidia disappoints me

.

Rudski · May 18, 2003

OC Noob said:
What is the relationship between ID/Carmack and NVidia?

John writes the engines and also ownes ID. He also was a member of the board of directors or something like that for Nvidia but that was a while ago. But hes still involved somewhat.
Its funny how Ati leaked the E3 demo and now on THG is an article where they say that the 9700pro/9800pro uses the R200 graphics code. Yet Nvidias got support for NV20, NV30 and im pretty sure the other one (i cant remember).

sirtoby · May 18, 2003

What is the relationship between ID/Carmack and NVidia?

Well, to make a long story short, ID seems to be a fan of nvidia and intel products. As far as nvidia goes, they have been in contact (already back in the quake3 days) Carmack tells them what he needs for the game, and nvidia makes it happen. That was how it worked with Quake3 (and the early Doom3 development AFAIK). However, what the situation is today (with the ATI cards dominating the market) I don't know.. but I'd be surprised if iD left their business partner so to speak.

breez · May 18, 2003

The R200 path is used for 9500-9800 because it uses the same OpenGL extensions the "R300 path" would use. So it's the same. By default R300 and up will use ARB2 path.

knif_00 · May 18, 2003

breez said:
The R200 path is used for 9500-9800 because it uses the same OpenGL extensions the "R300 path" would use.

Dude! Are you trying to make some sense??
I dont think that is true. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I use an old 8500 and its the R250 GPU. . . i dont know. . correct me if I'm wrong (you guys always do, even when im NOT wrong)

OC Noob · May 18, 2003

breez said:
The R200 path is used for 9500-9800 because it uses the same OpenGL extensions the "R300 path" would use. So it's the same. By default R300 and up will use ARB2 path.

What about D3D or that openGL 2.0 support?

cruc1fy · May 18, 2003

sirtoby said:
However, what the situation is today (with the ATI cards dominating the market) I don't know.. but I'd be surprised if iD left their business partner so to speak.

He got ****ed off at them for leaking the alpha, so I doubt very much he'd go back (at least for a long time).

Ati doesn't dominate the market. They currently have the best available high-end gaming card, but they certainly don't have the market share than nVidia does. Besides, if nVidia makes the[/t] card to handle the DOOM3 engine, ATi will no longer even have the best high-end gaming card anymore.

Evnas · May 18, 2003

cruc1fy said:
Besides, if nVidia makes the[/t] card to handle the DOOM3 engine, ATi will no longer even have the best high-end gaming card anymore.

Winning in one benchmark doesnt make a card the best.

And it wasnt ATi that leaked the alpha demo. It was an employee of ATi, not a decision made by ATi. Carmack had already said that he wasnt going to consiquence the company from which the demo came.

NV35, cheating, 3DMark, and DOOM

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