If you use Nanotherm's PCM+ , you NEED to read this

Well.. PCM does mean "phase Change Material" doesn't it?
Maybe they should state more clearly that it changes copper to copper oxide!!

Well... the nanotherm reps have been kinda dodgy on the forums. I've been trying to assess if PCM is good for super low temps, but haven't got a clear answer on that question yet.

Like someone said, maybe they aren't as professional and resourceful as Arctic Silver.
They do have new ideas which is good. Competiton is always good, Without Nanotherm there is practically only Shin-Etsu and AS or.. ?

I hope Nanotherm will surface with some good answers, and continue to produce hopefully better solutions.

Sam,
I actually bought mine , I think from Xoxide if memory serves me correctly. As far as my sig goes. Someone complained about the length of my sig so I had to shorten it. In the process, I cut and paste the nanothero from an article because in the early morning I cannot type for ***** as you can tell now I was not emphasising the nanotherm per se.
Maybe I got the batch after the " guinea pigs " had theie misfortune and Scott had a chance to "fix" it.
BTW, I EMailed Scott about this problem and asked him for proof that it does not happen. A.K.A. an isolated case. I will let you ppl know verbatim what he said.
I am going to look into the new AS5 when it comes out on 10/21 but will wait and see what the reviews are before I make my purchase. Hopefully this PCM will last until then I do not see it NOT working until then.
Peace,
Mark

Lithan said:

I've got the exact same marking on my waterblock and sk-7 as the one SSS posted. it isn't "scorch mark". It IS oxidation (and also slight "molding" of the copper... I can read my cpu specs in the marking.) The ones in the article look different so i can't comment on those however.

I am now, and have always been using AS3 on both. I've never even seen a tube of PCM+ unless my eyes brushed over it in compusa or something.

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Yeah the effect appearing on the heatsink shown above isn't being caused by the Nanotherm compound, the exact same thing happened to my two Thermalright AX-7s after using AS3 for about 9 months.

The indentations in the copper are caused by the printed lettering on the core of AMD Palomino CPUs, as my AX-7s were fitted to Palominos and had identical indentations.

Just by chance I decided to reseat an slk800 a few days ago when swapping out a video card. Temps had slowly climbed over the 6-8 weeks since I'd applied pcm+ to it. I found serious discoloration, quite a bit worse than in the article. Straight away I knew I'd never use the stuff again

Out of the four machines I have at home which have all had many heatsink reseatings with various compounds over the past few years, I've never seen anything remotely comparable.

Paxmax said:

Well... the nanotherm reps have been kinda dodgy on the forums. I've been trying to assess if PCM is good for super low temps, but haven't got a clear answer on that question yet.

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In a word, no. Shortly after the initial buzz on pcm+ here I tried it out with my prometia. Though the temps were initially a few degrees cooler than with other compounds, after 24 hours they shot up from readings of 9-10°C idle to 29-30°C. Nanotherm was surprised (all the way at the bottom) to find that it worked at temps less than 30°C. We took that conversation offline where he informed me that they don't recommend it for temps below 30°C. At the time, I was never able to find any such recommendation on their site.

squirtle632 said:

Sam,
I actually bought mine , I think from Xoxide if memory serves me correctly. As far as my sig goes. Someone complained about the length of my sig so I had to shorten it. In the process, I cut and paste the nanothero from an article because in the early morning I cannot type for ***** as you can tell now I was not emphasising the nanotherm per se.
Maybe I got the batch after the " guinea pigs " had theie misfortune and Scott had a chance to "fix" it.
BTW, I EMailed Scott about this problem and asked him for proof that it does not happen. A.K.A. an isolated case. I will let you ppl know verbatim what he said.
I am going to look into the new AS5 when it comes out on 10/21 but will wait and see what the reviews are before I make my purchase. Hopefully this PCM will last until then I do not see it NOT working until then.
Peace,
Mark

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AKA an isolated case seems to be true, unless your one of the isolated cases. Scott has not once said publicly that its due to a bad batch, he puts the blame on heatsink makers and oxidation. I believe this to be not the case at all.

Whether you decide to try AS5 or any other thermal paste is only a choice you can make. You probably could keep using the PCM+ as long as you re-apply it every few weeks to be on the safe side. I just don't know and am making an educated guess on that.

why take your chances with PCM+ for a few degrees if even that? if you reapply it every few weeks you will eventually run out and have to buy another tube and replace your heatsink after a period of time. common sense should tell you to stick with the stuff you know and trust =p

squirtle632 said:

Kinda ironic huh?
I have had it on my computer for more than a month and have had NO problems at all with it. MAYBE you got a BAD batch. Do-do happens. I get bad parts from where I work but I do not go bashing GM for it. I can tell you countless times of parts being bad on a car from DAY ONE. I had a car in the shop the other day that had 15!! miles on it and had a bad fuel pump. Things happen. This is why man invented warranties. If you buy an Intel/AMD retail box it should be covered as long as you did not remove the original TIM. Sorry it happened to you but IMHO I think you overreacted. Most companies will offer to replace the part damaged by using their products.

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This happens to be an area where getting a, "BAD batch" is not acceptable. And I have a "Retail Box" P4 with heatsink, and there's certainly no TIM in there? Are YOU going to tell the 500 or so potential businesses who may have purchased that "BAD batch" and stand to loose large sums of money; "This is why man invented warranties"? Replacing their hardware will hardly compensate for all the potential damages they might incur. And if the integrity of said batch is anything like the integrity of some Nanotherm associates, including it's owner (in my opinion) it's highly unlikely they will EVER re-coup their losses. Hell they wouldn't even give me an earnest apology. Seeking partial compensation was out of the question, as the owner deflected his having any involvement in what happened to me. Even though HE shared my original emails with his associate, HE knew of the promises made about PC's being "shipped", and HE actually rasied the issue of his incurring the phone charges from Rochestor NY to Newport RI, pertaining to his inadequate attempt at an apology phone call. It's highly unlikely a business which needs to work forums until three in the morning, and take advantage of a disabled person's need for PC hardware, is going to care if a few bacthes of liquid TIM fail.

And I'm sorry, but when you draw analogies, perhaps you should at least make an attempt to have compassion. After all you may want to show some respect for the thousands of people who lost their lives due to faulty part "batches" in the Automotive industry. Are YOU going to tell a young child who lost her father, or mother, or both in a automobile collision, "Things happen"? My God man, ever stop to think you don't have a "grip" on reality because you may have purchased Nanotherm's Nano-epoxy, and got a "bad batch"?

Bleh !! I was gonna pick up some of this stuff in the near future, but I guess I will wait for the AS5.

Well the CEO of the company has his personal phone available to the public. So I guess you could call and really complain if your hardware got fubar'd.

ZaP37 said:

Yeah the effect appearing on the heatsink shown above isn't being caused by the Nanotherm compound, the exact same thing happened to my two Thermalright AX-7s after using AS3 for about 9 months.

The indentations in the copper are caused by the printed lettering on the core of AMD Palomino CPUs, as my AX-7s were fitted to Palominos and had identical indentations.

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Uuuum Did you see the pic I posted? this is NOT an indentation of the lettering.....IMHO This is some type of chemical reaction caused by PCM+ eating the copper itself




http://www.piratesoftware.org/showarticle.asp?intarticleID=37&page=1

Your link is dead SSS.

Turd Furguson said:

Your link is dead SSS.

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Link fixed

SS. The deepest marks (going from left edge to bottom edge as the pic is situated) ARE indentations. I can clearly read a backwards and upside down AMD. I can't make out whether the longer area says ATHLON or DURON however. (Looks like ATHLON to me). I can see the exact same marks on my Sk-7 used with AS3. I will get pics when I get the chance if you like.

That angle used is the MOST incriminating angle and about the hardest one to read from. Looking straight down it is obvious what the marks are, and I suspect the photographer was intentionally trying to make the lettering appear to be gouges in the copper. (edit: nevermind that... he has better pics in the article) Trust me... that isn't eaten away copper... just indentation and discoloration caused by oxidation... ation.


edit: The person who took the picture seems; upon reading the article, more ignorant than underhanded. The markings are a result of coppers 'softness' so to speak and increased clamping pressure with 3 prong tabs. NOT Melting of the copper (as he claims). The Cpu would melt LONG before a copper heatsink would.


Incidentally, My markings (from using AS3) are as bad if not worse than his. 15 minutes of lapping can fix them easily.

Even in the article, he says it is the mirror image of the cpu's lettering.


Nanotherm may lose effectiveness sooner than as3... and it may perform worse than as5, but I believe arctic silver should (and it seems it does) stand on its own two feet, without help from claims of chemical reactions in pcm+ destroying heatsinks, which seem to me, from what I've seen here, to be simply untrue.


Mmm... runon.

Im terrible with a digicam... but here are two pics of my sk-7 used with as3 (I can't get all the as3 out without lapping... that's why the marks are highlighted silver... I didnt edit these crappy pics in any way.

While everybody is heatedly sharing their opinions, remember what is said about opinions. Opinions are like a**holes, just about everybody has one, but that doesn't make them right or wrong. I would like to see some hard data, not conjecture and innuendo.

Uuuum Did you see the pic I posted? this is NOT an indentation of the lettering.....IMHO This is some type of chemical reaction caused by PCM+ eating the copper itself

Click to expand...

f you look closely at this picture, you can even see that the details printed on the CPU core seem to have been 'melted' actually into the copper slug - I had experienced this before with other TIMs, but not on this scale.

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sss you say that its not an indention of the lettering, but that very site you linked to says that the details printed on teh CPU core seem to have beem "melted" into the copper (i dont think the details were melted into the copper, i think a chemical reaction maybe burned them into it instead)

I'm using it right now I'm just goign to use it till AS5 Comes out then grab some of that. If it farks my hsf/processor I'll give him a ring, and an email. BBB will also be getting a call.

Since I have created such a stir here and nothing was meant to offend people.

Here is my link to MY HSF and TIM pic. Sorry it is small but I wanted to keep it 56k friendly also.

http://www.websamba.com/MunichKid/nanotherm.jpg

My apologies to all who have taken my comments the wrong way.

squirtle632 said:

Since I have created such a stir here and nothing was meant to offend people.

Here is my link to MY HSF and TIM pic. Sorry it is small but I wanted to keep it 56k friendly also.

http://www.websamba.com/MunichKid/nanotherm.jpg

My apologies to all who have taken my comments the wrong way.

Click to expand...

You've got nothing to apologize about, I'm glad your hsf isn't amongst then 'infected' ones though.

It would be nice is Nanotherm would comment on all this. So far they've blamed the heatsink makers and Oxidation. I know a few Heatsink makers have expressed their displeasure about hearing that its their fault. Nanotherm used to promote their products on just about every large forum, now they have disappeared like the Bubonic Plague of 1347

Sam, you do have a vaild point on the advertising area.
I do think I am going to change to AS5 when it comes out in Oct.

From what I've seen, it appears to me that it is as simple as PCM+ releasing hydrogen, which inhibits the oxidation of copper (and in fact can reverse it)... which would explain the defined 'ring' of oxidized copper on the heatsink examples. (Where the pcm+ is exposed, the hydrogen can escape, thus negating it's anti-oxidating properties). This would be bad because if it happened to a great enough extent, and the copper-oxide were removed, leaving the pure copper intact, it could impact the level of flatness on your heatsink... For general use, however, I would say that if I am right, it is hardly severe enough a change to merit concern. If I had pcm+, I would still use it. But I won't be going out to buy it any time soon. My as3 should last till the end of the month.

It's as simple as finding a list of the ingredients of pcm+ to prove or disprove this theory.


Edit: And incidentally, that sk-7 had no noticable imperfections after I had lapped it... the silver highlights you see are from the lettering indents off a Pally, thunder, and duron core. These indentations will occur with any thermal paste... not only pcm+ or as3. It is a combination of soft copper, hard core caps, and high mounting pressure. The TIM has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The discoloration on my example is simple oxidation (which has occured all over the heatsink in fact). whether the discoloration of pcm+ users heatsinks is oxidation or something else is the matter at hand as I see it.