2nd coming of a mobile barton?

The Coolest · Apr 15, 2004

bulk88 said:
BS and they dont give you .5xs making it really not that needed. If you need to jump 200 mhz then it is, but remmeber A64s are horrible OCers.

Yes, *.5x multies do exist. They are undocumented but they are there. I didn't know of this either till I saw a screenshot of GCPUID with A64 at x9.5. I added the option to set half multies as well.

dippy_skoodlez said:
>>>Voltage: 1.5V

And stock is?

And one of the main differences for mobile barton to reg is? (other than multi)

They run at lower vcore at stock speed, which means they can get to higher speed at a certain voltage, when comparing with a desktop chip. They are higher quality chips.

Tyberius · Apr 15, 2004

AFAIK the mobile A64s operate at 1.5v also...same as the desktop counterparts....and yes, I didnt even touch upon the multi thing, but I know my A64 will work on all .5 multis all the way down to 4. But as I said before, higher multis arent really needed for anything more than convenience because of the high HTT freq these chips can take. What I found interesting was that dropping my A64's multi down to 4x, giving me an operating speed of 800mhz still yielded a 13,000+ score on 3dmark2k1. I barely even saw a performance hit on nature test...

bulk88 · Apr 16, 2004

Gautam said:
For some odd reason, the documentation says this, but I can assure, .5x multis do exist.

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031021/athlon_cooler-02.html

Motherboard only has whole number multipliers, no .5xs. I was right. And yes I am aware that A64s can change their multiplier down, but I dont see the point of that unless you have DDR550 or DDR600 ram because the ram is limiting you.

bulk88 · Apr 16, 2004

Tyberius said:
Ummm, what rock have you been hiding under? Horrible overclockers??? WTF? They have been doing quite well, especially for the first stepping, you should check out the AMD section of XS.org before you pass judgement. With watercooling and voltmods, people are getting 2.4-2.6 ghz from the 3200+ easily. Let alone when given supercooling.... And as far as the multiplers, it makes no difference whether or not they are unlocked. The HTT frequency goes through the roof on these chips, its just a matter of having a proper voltmodded platform and running an async HTT/Mem bus. I actually have to drop my multiplier down to achieve the perfect balance. But I can get my HTT up to 350mhz, which if needed could give me 3.5ghz if the chips would do it. So adjusting the multiplier makes no difference. These are not the XP chips where the FSB hit a ceiling early on...

The 3200+ on stock is 2.0ghz, your saying you can get 400-600 mhz out of it with WATERCOOLING and MB mods?

You can get more Mhz out of any AXP without watercooling or vmods, 1700+ goes from 1450 to 2300, thats 850 mhz. So what I can get a AXP to 3100mhz under a phase changer. and a fx can only get to 2800. Also you need MB vmods, what kind of platform to OC is that? my NF7S will easily goto 2.3v. And using air cooling, I am only going to get out 200mhz, even if that was double the performance, effectivly 400mhz out of a AXP, you can get better AXP OCs. I dont see A64 as being a good overclocker as compared to AXPs. Either AMD needs to come out with slower A64s or it is pointless to OC, as they seem to all be OCed with no signifigant headroom by AMD when they leave the factory.

Silent Buddha · Apr 16, 2004

I think his point is that FX-5x or A64 @ 2.8GHz > AXP @ 3.2GHz.

Gautam · Apr 16, 2004

bulk88 said:
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031021/athlon_cooler-02.html

Motherboard only has whole number multipliers, no .5xs. I was right. And yes I am aware that A64s can change their multiplier down, but I dont see the point of that unless you have DDR550 or DDR600 ram because the ram is limiting you.

I don't care what Tom's Hardware says. I own one...lol, I use half multis all the time.

bulk88 · Apr 16, 2004

Silent Buddha said:
I think his point is that FX-5x or A64 @ 2.8GHz > AXP @ 3.2GHz.

Thats one thing, also that is was said you need watercooling to get 400mhz, thats a much higher investment, and I dont see the processor as being price efficent if you need watercooling to do a 400mhz OC. HOw much does a A64 (non-fx) get on good air cooling?

Tyberius · Apr 16, 2004

bulk88 said:
The 3200+ on stock is 2.0ghz, your saying you can get 400-600 mhz out of it with WATERCOOLING and MB mods?

You can get more Mhz out of any AXP without watercooling or vmods, 1700+ goes from 1450 to 2300, thats 850 mhz. So what I can get a AXP to 3100mhz under a phase changer. and a fx can only get to 2800. Also you need MB vmods, what kind of platform to OC is that? my NF7S will easily goto 2.3v. And using air cooling, I am only going to get out 200mhz, even if that was double the performance, effectivly 400mhz out of a AXP, you can get better AXP OCs. I dont see A64 as being a good overclocker as compared to AXPs. Either AMD needs to come out with slower A64s or it is pointless to OC, as they seem to all be OCed with no signifigant headroom by AMD when they leave the factory.

Okay, for one, the multi thing is a lost cause, for I already know that I have .5 multis available to me. Please dont insult our intelligence by linking to Toms Hardware anymore, as anybody with any sense wouldn't believe a word he says even if he paid us. This is an overclocking site, so the idea of enhanced cooling and VoltMods shouldnt be foreign to you, they are quite easy to implement. And just because the NF7-S comes with much higher voltage allowances does not mean that the ATHLON 64, the processor, doesnt overclock well. It's just not as a mature platform as the AthlonXP which has been out MUCH longer. Did you see many if any boards with those kind of voltage allowances early in the AthlonXPs life?

I dont think so, I remember fighting with my KT333 board, made by Abit I might add, to overclock at all, mainly because of the AGP/PCI dividers and the lack of a very adjustable voltage range. This was understandable, as even though the KT333 board was not a first gen board by any means, it was still not a mature platform. Which brings me to the Athlon 64 platforms, they are young, the motherboards are at their first revisions, we really only have one chipset, NForce3-150, and we havent seen any board makers such as Abit, Epox, or DFI make a board using this chipset.

But your point is that using stock motherboards no mods or extra cooling. The first platform being an Athlon XP, a low model number such as the 1700+, with plenty of headroom coupled with a board such as the NF7-S which is the pinnacle of motherboard technology for that platform. The second platform being a 3200+ A64, which is on the higher end of the processor scale, because they do offer the 2800+ Athlon64, and using a first gen, first revision board that is all that is available at this time....Your saying that the AthlonXP system is gonna get a higher stock mhz overclock. Wow, couldnt see that one coming

My point was that regardless of the fact that the Athlon64 boards are very young, I am quite impressed with what people have been able to do. I don't even flinch when it comes to voltmods, I plan on voltmodding any board I come across, I even had to voltmod my NF7-S to get higher Vdimm voltage. If you browsed other sites than Toms Hardware

you might also find that people have broken the 3ghz barrier with the Athlon64 platforms as well.

Could you have seen those kind of results with first generation Athlon XP motherboards? Or processors for that matter? Could you get a 3ghz overclock with a palomino proc and a KT266? I'd give you a 2100+ thoroughbred, a kt266 board, and a phase change system, If you can get a 50% mhz increase on it, I'll run up and kiss Tom himself. This is my point. They are not poor overclockers, just because we havent seen any outstanding motherboards for them, does not make the processor bad. Many in the OC community do not shy away from voltmods and such, which even negates the mediocre boards we've seen. As far as lower clockspeed processors....sure check out the 2800+ Athlon64 I think newegg has it for around $170 that'll give you some extra "headroom" but for me it was unneeded. I consider my 25% increase in mhz on my Athlon64 system a pretty good overclock. It helped my break 25K on 3dmark, and that alone should speak for itself. /endrant

Tyberius · Apr 16, 2004

bulk88 said:
Thats one thing, also that is was said you need watercooling to get 400mhz, thats a much higher investment, and I dont see the processor as being price efficent if you need watercooling to do a 400mhz OC. HOw much does a A64 (non-fx) get on good air cooling?

Check a site other than THG and you'll find some interesting results using stock cooling, I've seen 400-500 mhz with stock cooling, using the 3000+ which has less cache and less heat. My particular proc that I use is a 3200+ which has the full amount of cache enabled, which is gonna give me more heat. And as far as the watercooling, that was an investment I made a while ago...because I had an AthlonXP processor LOL. They crank out alot more heat than these A64s, trust me.

bulk88 · Apr 16, 2004

Tyberius said:
Check a site other than THG and you'll find some interesting results using stock cooling, I've seen 400-500 mhz with stock cooling, using the 3000+ which has less cache and less heat. My particular proc that I use is a 3200+ which has the full amount of cache enabled, which is gonna give me more heat. And as far as the watercooling, that was an investment I made a while ago...because I had an AthlonXP processor LOL. They crank out alot more heat than these A64s, trust me.

So your saying a A64 and a AXP at the same MHZ and voltage, the A64 will run cooler temperature wise?

The Coolest · Apr 16, 2004

Yes it will.

Tyberius · Apr 16, 2004

bulk88 said:
So your saying a A64 and a AXP at the same MHZ and voltage, the A64 will run cooler temperature wise?

Well, considering I dont think that they would run at the same speed and voltage....I couldnt say that for sure, but I think the heatspreader might have something to do with it. That and they dont need NEARLY as much voltage to overclock well. My barton needed 1.95v to hit 2.5ghz and my A64 can do it on 1.65v and runs considerably cooler. Thats all I need to know, since when do poeple here run stock anything? LOL Question though, do you even own an Athlon64? I dont see one in your sig...and I think it might be pointless argueing to a blind man on what color the sky is...

bulk88 · Apr 16, 2004

Tyberius said:
Okay, for one, the multi thing is a lost cause, for I already know that I have .5 multis available to me. Please dont insult our intelligence by linking to Toms Hardware anymore, as anybody with any sense wouldn't believe a word he says even if he paid us. This is an overclocking site, so the idea of enhanced cooling and VoltMods shouldnt be foreign to you, they are quite easy to implement. And just because the NF7-S comes with much higher voltage allowances does not mean that the ATHLON 64, the processor, doesnt overclock well. It's just not as a mature platform as the AthlonXP which has been out MUCH longer. Did you see many if any boards with those kind of voltage allowances early in the AthlonXPs life?

I dont think so, I remember fighting with my KT333 board, made by Abit I might add, to overclock at all, mainly because of the AGP/PCI dividers and the lack of a very adjustable voltage range. This was understandable, as even though the KT333 board was not a first gen board by any means, it was still not a mature platform. Which brings me to the Athlon 64 platforms, they are young, the motherboards are at their first revisions, we really only have one chipset, NForce3-150, and we havent seen any board makers such as Abit, Epox, or DFI make a board using this chipset.

But your point is that using stock motherboards no mods or extra cooling. The first platform being an Athlon XP, a low model number such as the 1700+, with plenty of headroom coupled with a board such as the NF7-S which is the pinnacle of motherboard technology for that platform. The second platform being a 3200+ A64, which is on the higher end of the processor scale, because they do offer the 2800+ Athlon64, and using a first gen, first revision board that is all that is available at this time....Your saying that the AthlonXP system is gonna get a higher stock mhz overclock. Wow, couldnt see that one coming My point was that regardless of the fact that the Athlon64 boards are very young, I am quite impressed with what people have been able to do. I don't even flinch when it comes to voltmods, I plan on voltmodding any board I come across, I even had to voltmod my NF7-S to get higher Vdimm voltage. If you browsed other sites than Toms Hardware you might also find that people have broken the 3ghz barrier with the Athlon64 platforms as well.

Could you have seen those kind of results with first generation Athlon XP motherboards? Or processors for that matter? Could you get a 3ghz overclock with a palomino proc and a KT266? I'd give you a 2100+ thoroughbred, a kt266 board, and a phase change system, If you can get a 50% mhz increase on it, I'll run up and kiss Tom himself. This is my point. They are not poor overclockers, just because we havent seen any outstanding motherboards for them, does not make the processor bad. Many in the OC community do not shy away from voltmods and such, which even negates the mediocre boards we've seen. As far as lower clockspeed processors....sure check out the 2800+ Athlon64 I think newegg has it for around $170 that'll give you some extra "headroom" but for me it was unneeded. I consider my 25% increase in mhz on my Athlon64 system a pretty good overclock. It helped my break 25K on 3dmark, and that alone should speak for itself. /endrant

Enhanced cooling to me is a $40 heatsink and a Tornado fan, I am not paying $120 for a premade water cooling kit. Also I dont belive tom either, I dont belive he EVER said that AMD is faster than a P4. I was just trying to show you guys the bios screenshot where there were no .5xs. I should have put the image in the post but then I will get my *** kicked by mod because it eats up excess bandwidth without permission of the owner.

I have used a kinda ancient board (Asus A7M266) to get a good OC of 2280 using a Tbred-B. Also why isn't anyone making A64 boards with high voltages when the last generation boards have them? do MB designer go monkey dumb everytime the get a new platform, can't they move the chip from one baord to another? also why haven't any of the OC friendly MB manufacturers made A64 boards? Amd told them not to, to limit A64's overclocking? Also why are the first genration boards really horrible, didn't they learn anything from the previous genration?

Tyberius · Apr 16, 2004

bulk88 said:
Enhanced cooling to me is a $40 heatsink and a Tornado fan, I am not paying $120 for a premade water cooling kit. Also I dont belive tom either, I dont belive he EVER said that AMD is faster than a P4. I was just trying to show you guys the bios screenshot where there were no .5xs. I should have put the image in the post but then I will get my *** kicked by mod because it eats up excess bandwidth without permission of the owner.

I have used a kinda ancient board (Asus A7M266) to get a good OC of 2280 using a Tbred-B. Also why isn't anyone making A64 boards with high voltages when the last generation boards have them? do MB designer go monkey dumb everytime the get a new platform, can't they move the chip from one baord to another? also why haven't any of the OC friendly MB manufacturers made A64 boards? Amd told them not to, to limit A64's overclocking? Also why are the first genration boards really horrible, didn't they learn anything from the previous genration?

Obviously our definition of enhanced cooling differs greatly...but anyway to answer a few of your questions....Everybody knows that new boards for new processors arent always going to be that great. Especially when you consider the a64, its not as simple as puting a new socket on the motherboard and calling it good. The Athlon64 is fundementally different from the AthlonXPs mainly because they have an onboard memory controller, its gonna take motherboard companies a bit to get the hang of these new boards, as most probably rushed their initial boards to meet the release date of the Athlon64 processors. Trial and Error my friend, thats my guess on what they go by. As for why better companies havent made the boards? Epox and DFI are generally a bit late in the game, and if you remember Abit and Nvidia had quite the little fight awhile back, thats why you only saw a VIA chipset A64 Abit board. That, and the Nforce3 had some problems with stablity and their HT bus, and while it didnt seem to thwart the OC community as we embraced these boards, it was certainly enough to keep some companies at bay. Just wait for the Nforce3-250, if they have worked out the initial bugs, I'm sure we'll see many other companies hopping on board.

bulk88 · Apr 16, 2004

Tyberius said:
Well, considering I dont think that they would run at the same speed and voltage....I couldnt say that for sure, but I think the heatspreader might have something to do with it. That and they dont need NEARLY as much voltage to overclock well. My barton needed 1.95v to hit 2.5ghz and my A64 can do it on 1.65v and runs considerably cooler. Thats all I need to know, since when do poeple here run stock anything? LOL Question though, do you even own an Athlon64? I dont see one in your sig...and I think it might be poitless argueing to a blind man what color the sky is...

I wont get one until it is comperable to a current AXP, that means a $100 cpu (2800+ is at $173, not buying for a very long time I guess), and atleast a guarenteed %30 overclock (barton M 2500+ to 2400), preferably %50-%60 that I get with taking a Duron 1400 to 2300 and a cooling solution that is $45 or less. A64 MBs are cheap enough now, since ECSes go for ~$80. But since AMD decided to price its A64s like Intels, I dont think that is happening anytime soon.

Also I am not an amature regarding CPUs, I have every kind of x86 cpu EXCEPT a 286, a NexGen, a K5, a Crusoe, a efficion, a Cyrix III, a Covington Celeron, a MII, a C3 Nehimah, anything P4, P3/P2 Xeons, any pentium Ms, any A64s, any Opterons.

Tyberius · Apr 16, 2004

I wouldnt exactly say they are priced like Intels...regardless of recent Intel price drops, mainly because IMO they are by far a superior product. But nonetheless, your decision to stay away from the Athlon64s is your own, but I didnt get into this hobby to save money. My entire point of that was that you shouldnt name them horrible overclockers just because many dont know how to overclock them. Many dont know that with the Nforce3 chipsets you have to drop your LDT multiplier down to 2.5 or 2x in order to get much progress, among other little tweaks necessary to get results. What I'm saying is dont judge them untill you have one of your own under the hood, as I'm sure that many of us who do have these processors would disagree with your view of their overclocking potential. Also realizer that the two processors, the XP and the 64 do not compare mhz for mhz. That would be like saying that the XPs are horrible overclockers because the p4s can get up to 4ghz+. Take each processor for its own, and read up a little bit on the Athlon64, not the numerous older procs you may have experience with, before you make statements such as the 64s being "horrible overclockers". That alone tells me you have little or no first hand experience with them.

bulk88 · Apr 16, 2004

Tyberius said:
I wouldnt exactly say they are priced like Intels...regardless of recent Intel price drops, mainly because IMO they are by far a superior product. But nonetheless, your decision to stay away from the Athlon64s is your own, but I didnt get into this hobby to save money. My entire point of that was that you shouldnt name them horrible overclockers just because many dont know how to overclock them. Many dont know that with the Nforce3 chipsets you have to drop your LDT multiplier down to 2.5 or 2x in order to get much progress, among other little tweaks necessary to get results. What I'm saying is dont judge them untill you have one of your own under the hood, as I'm sure that many of us who do have these processors would disagree with your view of their overclocking potential. Also realizer that the two processors, the XP and the 64 do not compare mhz for mhz. That would be like saying that the XPs are horrible overclockers because the p4s can get up to 4ghz+. Take each processor for its own, and read up a little bit on the Athlon64, not the numerous older procs you may have experience with, before you make statements such as the 64s being "horrible overclockers". That alone tells me you have little or no first hand experience with them.

Your right, I shouldn't be talking about one if I never had one. But you've made me so angry I am going to get one to prove to they they are horrible overclockers. Now to try and get a CPU for $140 on ebay :santa2:

.

And when you mean drop the LDT multiplier, that means you lower the speed with which the CPU talks to the nb (or whats hasn't been put in the die yet)/sb and is that a trick to get the PCI bus lower on the SB?

Silent Buddha · Apr 16, 2004

bulk88 said:
And when you mean drop the LDT multiplier, that means you lower the speed with which the CPU talks to the nb (or whats hasn't been put in the die yet)/sb and is that a trick to get the PCI bus lower on the SB?

LDTxHTT=HT
so default on nForce3 150 is
3x200=600MHz
default on Via K8T800
4x200=800MHz

Lowering the LDT multi should help you gain a higher HTT oc. By lowering and raising HTT, you can keep HT at about the same, not sacrificing performance in your oc.

There is no PCI lock available on current boards. It should be working in nForce3 250 and Via K8T800 Pro boards as it was only a BIOS issue in retail boards.

Read this:
http://www.dugu9tweaks.net/guides/a64oc/

Tyberius · Apr 16, 2004

Your HyperTransport bus speed is your HTT frequency times your LDT multi. On the Nforce3 chipsets now, its 200 x 3 = 600mhz, which is bidirectional, giving you a full duplex speed of 1200mhz. That would be the link between your A64 and your chipset. This is the whole deal about the Nforce3 chipsets not being as fast or stable as the VIA chipsets, because the VIAs can operate at a full 1600mhz. The Nforce3 chipsets tend to go unstable when you go much higher than 600(1200)mhz, thus the reason you drop down the LDT multi down. I know that my Nforce3 board is fully stable at 295 x 2.5LDT which is about 738mhz almost at full speed. Any higher than that and I need to use the 2x LDT multi. This has nothing to do with the floating PCI bus, but I am yet to have been affected by this, and I even use the onboard Sata controller running raid. If you are actually "angered" by my statements enough that your gonna buy one to prove me wrong, then perhaps I won this battle in more ways than one

But if your looking for a cheap A64, go with a 2800 or a 3000 and head over to XS.org and check out their AMD section. I've seen some very impressive results using stock heatsinks. Really the only reason I need to do voltmods was to get my Vdimm voltage up so I could raise up my memory speed, which I run Async to my HTT freq, much how many overclock the pentium4s. Good luck if you decide to pick one up, but dont come crying to me when you ditch your AthlonXP system for your A64 system

. I said it wouldnt happen, but when my STOCK, non-overclocked 3200+ A64 beat the living snot outa my heavily overclocked and watercooled Barton that was at 2.5ghz, I changed my mind quickly, and proceded to OC my A64 system. I've never looked back

The Coolest · Apr 16, 2004

bulk, when buying on ebay you will have a much greater chance of getting a crap overclockers, thus proving to yourself only that they suck. A64s are great overclockers compared to AthlonXPs as most if not all CG steppings do around 2.4GHz at ~1.6v and some do 2.5GHz @ 1.7v this is pretty impressive.
You can't say that 2.5GHz is not a good overclock.
If you get the DTR 3200+ from newegg, which has AR at the end of its OPN code, you will get a CG stepping A64, which will overclock nicely.
Although the FX are cherry picked, these chips do 2.4GHz @ 1.5v on stock cooling and everything.... Please show me a 2.4GHz mobile XP running such low voltage

2nd coming of a mobile barton?

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