we need better stuff, thermal paste doesn't cut it anymore.

CrystalMethod · Aug 21, 2001

Not sure, but last I read on it was that the layer of foil would just transfer the heat to the next conductor (presumably aluminum, or copper) resulting in negligible results. I'm thinking the next step for us is total system liquid immersion.

FerrariF50 · Aug 21, 2001

Well Amd Cpu cores are strong....I took the over off my Amd 486 and put a tourch to the underside of the core. And the whole chip got so hot I just cucked it out of my hand.

bdf24 · Aug 21, 2001

touser said:
well just looking at my P4 and the core does span almost the entire chip

I don't believe it's the core that spans the whole chip. I belive that's just the heat spreader thats attached to the core. The core is most likely much, much smaller. I could be wrong but that's what I was lead to believe.

cjtune · Aug 21, 2001

fuzzba11 said:
My question would then be why do they make the core so small? They should extend the core over the entire chip, and maybe make it out of gold as well as the pins. We have heatsinks that have at least 10 times the 2D dimentions of the core...

More yield per silicone wafer. Saves $$. HSFs ARE MEANT to have 10x the size (and the surface area) for better heat dispersal. If the cores were large enough, we wouldn't even need HSFs. Remember the old 386 and 486 CPUs? Yeah, and for the best possible contact between CPU and HSF, they might have to be built as ONE. Next time, the die, the core, and the HSF might be fabricated together and that'll be the twilight of third-party HSFs manufacturers...

Only choice we may have then would be the type of fan/cooler to go with the integrated CPU/HSF.

fuzzba11 · Aug 21, 2001

cjtune said:
More yield per silicone wafer. Saves $$. HSFs ARE MEANT to have 10x the size (and the surface area) for better heat dispersal. If the cores were large enough, we wouldn't even need HSFs. Remember the old 386 and 486 CPUs? Yeah, and for the best possible contact between CPU and HSF, they might have to be built as ONE. Next time, the die, the core, and the HSF might be fabricated together and that'll be the twilight of third-party HSFs manufacturers... Only choice we may have then would be the type of fan/cooler to go with the integrated CPU/HSF.

Of course they're supposed to be 10X the size in the way you're thinking, but I'm saying that why does the BASE of the heatsink need to be that big? Shouldn't it only be as big as the top of the core? (like the new Zalman heatsinks). If it's possible, you might as well have a big ol core, then there's more contact area which leads to better heat transfer and therefor dispersal.

William · Aug 21, 2001

CrystalMethod said:
Not sure, but last I read on it was that the layer of foil would just transfer the heat to the next conductor (presumably aluminum, or copper) resulting in negligible results. I'm thinking the next step for us is total system liquid immersion.

that makes no sense at all. The point would be a more efficient heat transfer, which it would do, probably better than AS2.

The next step is to design cooler CPUs. A company can do that, often they alternate generations. The P3 is designed to run cool while an Athlon is designed to run hot.

Crash893 · Aug 22, 2001

The core is very small much smaller than the chip its self
that’s what makes it go faster (less distance between transistors means less time wasted)

I think the next advanced in cooling will be

perhaps make the chip out something other than ceramic maybe like metal or have some sort of integrated micro tube in the actual cpu but only the chip manufactures can do that and I think it will take them just a little while longer

partial or total liquid emersion

it seems the best way to lose cpu water block bottle neck is to actually lose the part that’s causing it.

My own personal idea

find some way to cool the bottom of the cpu as well
I envision some sort of socket extender that lets you raise the cpu up a little and stick some sort of Pelzer under there basically make a cpu sandwich

k

dimmreaper · Aug 22, 2001

ken257 said:
The solution to cracking is an integrated heat spreader like the K6-2 line had. This will be especially important when AMD goes to .13 form .18 I wonder why they stopped putting the heatspreaders on their cpu's....maybe to save a few cents in production?

AMD stopped usind the "heat spreader" plate because the thermal epoxy between the CPU die and the spreader plate just added more thermal resistance. The "heat spreader" was used on the K6-IIs to allow the use of flip chip technology without redesigning the the heatsink clip. But once Intel started going to flip chip technology, heatsinks with the proper clamp became widely available, so AMD followed the leader and went topless.

I'm wondering how the P4/Tulatin cores are bonded to there "heat spreader" though. It would be interesting to find that out.

dimmreaper · Aug 22, 2001

Colin said:
JB Weld is epoxy with steel particles. Steel does not conduct heat well. Arctic Silver Epoxy is similar with silver instead of steel for better thermal conductivity. Even so, the thermal grease is a better solution unless you want the HS to stick to the object you intend to cool.

So that's what the put in JB weld. Thanx for the input Colin!

cjtune · Aug 22, 2001

fuzzba11 said:
Of course they're supposed to be 10X the size in the way you're thinking, but I'm saying that why does the BASE of the heatsink need to be that big? Shouldn't it only be as big as the top of the core? (like the new Zalman heatsinks). If it's possible, you might as well have a big ol core, then there's more contact area which leads to better heat transfer and therefor dispersal.

The CPU can be thought of as a heat source that conducts heat radially -so ideally we would like to cover as much 'angle' about the CPU hence the large bases for most HSFs nowadays. Now imagine the (possible) future models of Zalman, an 'iron maiden' kinda HSF that looks like a spiked ball -the core is integrated in the centre of the entire metallic mass and a long plastic column extends down to fit in a Slot to transfer data. Old heatsinks of this kind can be fitted at the end of a stick and used for self-defense...

BTW, gold, copper, or silver foils at the base is next to useless because the heat needs to travel sideways as well as upwards and because of the thickness of the foil, the heat doesn't really get spread out. A gold PLATE would do better.

dimmreaper · Aug 22, 2001

cjtune said:
A gold PLATE would do better.

But a Silver one would be better yet . . . .

maha_x · Aug 22, 2001

I liked the sandwich idea. But instead of loosing precious pin space, the MB should have a hole in center of the socket, and the CPU core's backside should be exposed. Thisways there could be double the surface and two HSFs on both sides. Or mayby the slot design was good for this?

Also if water cooling got somehow standardised, I wouldnt dismiss the idea of boxed waterblocks. This would just need the cases to come with standardised water cooling equipment. Imagine the water flowing right ontop, just 1mm away from the core.

I think the heat spreader can do good, they just need someting else than epoxy to attach it. They could have the core more flatter and the spreader should have a "hole" size of the core on it with some AS2 to gather the heat from the top and sides of the core. Then epoxy only on the spreader corners to keep it still.

cjtune · Aug 22, 2001

dimmreaper said:
But a Silver one would be better yet . . . .

Agreed, but the key issue here is the thickness of the heat spreader layer. Foils just aren't cut out for it.

Kingslayer · Aug 22, 2001

Well if ASII isn't cutting it anymore, then you guys need to scope this out. Looks like it out performs AS!

http://www.overclockersclub.com/nanotherm.shtml

cjtune · Aug 22, 2001

Finally, an alternative to AS2. Maybe that'll cause some disturbance in the 'force'.....or at least the prices.

William · Aug 22, 2001

cjtune said:
Agreed, but the key issue here is the thickness of the heat spreader layer. Foils just aren't cut out for it.

the idea of foil is not to spread the heat it is to transfer the heat to the heatsink as a good replacement. Because it is thin and readily sticks, it should make for a good substituted. I wish someone with a spare flip chip could do this(or send me a duron to try it on

)

JigPu · Aug 22, 2001

cjtune said:
BTW, gold, copper, or silver foils at the base is next to useless because the heat needs to travel sideways as well as upwards and because of the thickness of the foil, the heat doesn't really get spread out. A gold PLATE would do better.

The heat wouldn't get spread out as good as with a gold plate, but you also notice that most HS (at least the ones I've seen...) have a thickness between the base and the bottom of the pins. The gold foil would transfer it to the HS (better than AS), and then the HS itself would spread out the heat. AS dosen't spread out heat, the thickness of the base is supposed to do that. The gold only needs to get the heat to the HS, so it can radiate. The "thick" base of the HS allows all the pins to get heat.

Just my opinion....
Too bad they can't increase the core size ($$ restrictions someone said)! That would decrease the heat quite a bit!
JigPu

Fjeld · Aug 22, 2001

FerrariF50 said:
Well if they don't do anything soon they are going to have to find some other fourm of cooling because right now air cooling is just about at it's peak......

But water & peltiers still do the job

You aint seen nothing yet...
Time to forget those screaming CPU-fans??

FerrariF50 · Aug 22, 2001

Heheh hey Fjeld well yeah but the Amd 1.4 Ghz uses like a Pelt at 175 Watts or so.....Do they make them any higher??

Fjeld said:
But water & peltiers still do the job You aint seen nothing yet...
Time to forget those screaming CPU-fans??

Wa11y · Aug 22, 2001

cjtune said:
Heh heh, I heard about organic CPUs as well. Right now I think they're having trouble just getting the tissue to form correct neural connections. God forbid if your Orga CPU catches cold during a critical app . I think the overclockers forums then would have a section on 'healthy living' as well.

Didn't they do something like that on Star Trek: Voyager (not that I ever watched it!), where the ships computer runs of "bio-memetic gel packs" that once got sick, so it screwed everything up? But then, keeping your processor cold would be bad, because it could kill your processor! Literally, kill!

we need better stuff, thermal paste doesn't cut it anymore.

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