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ATI equivilant to SLI?

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Wow, this thread is just asking for flaming wars / flocking fanboys, just look at his sig:
ATi OWNZ nvidia
7714- 3DMark05. Single X800 card..lets see a single Nvidia card do that.
AMD OWNZ intel
Wonder what you would have to have to keep up with a 3.24Ghz Venice.

Wow, and its in leet too :rolleyes:
 
Black_Paladin said:
Back to the topic of ATI's AMR, what makes me wonder is why we will need new motherboards with new chipsets if the solution will indeed be based purely on software. Call me an idiot but calling the AMR solution purely a software solution makes me think all the current nVidia SLI boards should be able to support AMR.

Wouldn't you still need to change motherboards for SLI? Currently, the only ATI chipset board that's been released only has one pci-e slot.

The technology is not truly software based anymore. ATI HAS released that a dongle will be needed to connect two cards externally. There is just too much going on in the chipset for a pure software solution. So while you still have to have a bridge between the cards you still get your choice of using two of ANY pci-e ATI cards, set up in software.


Black_Paladin said:
As a result, if AMR is going to be a software solution, it sounds to me like all ATI has to do is modify their cards to make them SLI capable so that the SLI functionality can be enabled via drivers. That would indeed make AMR a software solution and would go in line with what they are saying by being able to enable it through drivers.

As above, the control over the cards is software based but the link will still be within a dongle.

Black_Paladin said:
I am calling ATI's "software" solution BS. IF SLI can indeed be done through the drivers, you would think that just the CARDS would need to be modified to be in SLI configuration. Well, it sounds to me like ATI can't enable SLI just by modifying the graphics cards so they have to have a chip on the motherboard for it as well. How in the hell is that software??

Above again about software. MVP is supported naturally by the northbridge (no uni-bridge chip here).

Black_Paladin said:
...ATI's AMR solution has left a bad taste in my mouth so far because of the fact that everyone will have to dump their current motherboard and get a motherboard with an ATI chipset just to use it.

Again, didn't you have to dump your old mobo for SLI? You would have if it just wasn't convienant that SLI was introduced about the same time as the pci-e phase in.

Black_Paladin said:
At least on the AMD platform (which is the preferred platform for gaming for the moment being), I don't see a lot of people here switching from great and proven motherboards with the nForce 4 chipset to some questionable motherboards with a brand new ATI chipset.

There are only two or three a64 ATI mobos. One is the MSI one. One is Aopen. I think the third is foxcon. These boards are all MATX and offer no overclocking options. Since it's assumed most gamers are also into tweaking things, they are naturally turned away from these boards.

Check this link to see the true options the ati boards can offer:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55734&page=1&pp=25

Grayskull is an ATI insider so you can believe what he is saying.


Black_Paladin said:
Don't take me wrong, the ATI chipset might turn out to be a great chipset but it is going to be NEW chipset. If you remember, nVidia's first chipset was not that spectecular either (altough I would still call it a success despite its bugs at the time because of all the new features it provided). As a result, it is simply unrealistic to expect ANY chipset from a manufacturer that does not have too much experience in chipsets to immediately come up with a super chipset matching or beating the current offerings from experienced chipset makers. There is a reason that the current nForce chipset has the number 4 after it. It also took nVidia many years to get to the point it is in right now.

ATI has made several chipsets in the past and the current buggy issues are due to mobo makers pairing the xpress200 with the SB200 southbridge. There would probably be no problems if they had chosen the ULI southbridge instead but since they are basically testing the waters with these boards, the cheaper southbridge chips were offered.

Black_Paladin said:
For those of you saying that ATI already has made several chipsets so far, please spare me the hypocrisy. How many GAMERS or computer ENTHUSIASTs here are running with an ATI chipset based motherboard right now? ATI might make terrific chipsets for the OEM market but then again, so can every other chipset manufacturer on the planet. Making a chipset for the GAMER market (which nVidia has been concentrating on for years) will be a whole new ordeal for ATI.

Had ATI focused intentionally on the gamer market, which is miniscule, you can be assured their offerings would be at least on par. I'm sure you said the same thing about VIA chipsets and the origional NFORCE when it was first introduced. NVidia's first chipset that I know of.

Black_Paladin said:
As I stated above, I have been a supporter of ATI for a long time now and I have been waiting for Fudo and AMR to upgrade my system but now that the word is out that Fudo is nowhere near being released and that there is no information whatsoever about AMR other than it "working fine and is "coming out soon", I think I will just go ahead and grab a nice DFI-Ultra D motherboard with a couple 6800 GTs and enjoy some nice graphics right now, along with great overclocking capabilities provided by DFI and the nForce4 chipset.

FUDO has actually been delayed until fall, probably q3 because ATI is soley focusing on MVP which should be do sometime in June.

I'm just trying to set the facts straight. I like my ATI. I'm not a fanboy but I appreciate greater d3d performance because that's what's primarily supported in the games I play, HL2/CSS. I'd prefer dual d3d cards over ogl 'cause I don't play ogl games.

edit:
I would also like to add that ATI had this technology back with the 9700 cards. The only thing was that it was used for the government for flight simulator testing. Like SLI, it does have the option to scale upwards to *approximation* like elevendy billion cards too.
 
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jamesavery22 said:
Jesus that was a lot of bickering...

First of all, my apologies to all for the tone of my post. The recent demise of my IT7 MAX II just when I was getting ready to upgrade my system has made me want to rant. Then again, I am known to rant like this frequently so it is not really something out of the ordinary for me. :)

jamesavery22 said:
soooooo no one else found this statement strange?

However, ATI decided to use an external connector simple because it didn’t want to release new series of Multi VPU capable cards powered with an internal connector. If it had done that, it would have ended up upsetting many customers who bought X800 or X850 cards. So ATI views this as an easy move for its customers to dual cards and can offer it to every single
X800 and X850 card owner. A smart move for upgrade market.

Last time I saw a review no x850 had some sort of connector/pins that would hint towards some form of SLI...

The use of an external connector between ATI cards is just a rumor at this. Whether this rumor is true or not does have relevance to my point however.

I will atttempt to explain why below.
 
pwnt by pat said:
Wouldn't you still need to change motherboards for SLI? Currently, the only ATI chipset board that's been released only has one pci-e slot.

My apologies for not making my points clear. This question you ask above and the ones that follow stem from a misunderstanding.

If an ATI chipset is required to get 2 ATI cards to run in SLI mode, what you say would indeed have to be true. Furthermore, even if ATI did come out with a board that has 2 PCI-E slots using the chipset that you mentioned above, logic dictates that this still wouldn't work because the chipset you mention is not built for SLI functionality.

I am sure you would agree however that whether a bridge is used between 2 cards, either in the form of a external dongle or an internal connector, the additional requirement of an ATI chipset for the ATI SLI (I know I should be saying AMR) to work would essentially make this solution a hardware solution. My point here is that it is irrelevant how the cards are connected together. They will either have to be connected with either internal or external connectors or a chipset on the motherboard will be required or perhaps both of these requirements will have to be met. Either way, this type of solution sounds like a hardware solution to me. This was what I meant when I said that ATI was being hypocritical by saying that their technology was "superior" to nVidia since it would be "software" based as opposed to nVidia's "hardware" solution.

OK, so point #2 then: Try to look at this whole SLI/AMR situation from a different point of view for a second. Remember that not too many years ago, it was possible to connect 2 3dfx cards together without the need of a new motherboard. Yes, this was back when the motherboards were using PCI slots and not PCI-E and yet it would not be too absurd not to draw some parallels between the PCI slot and the PCI-E slots. The hardware functionality had to be built into the graphics cards for this to work as the cards had to be connected with a dongle but a seperate chipset was not required.

Today, the technology is undoubtably more complex than it was when the 3dfx cards were used in SLI and yet the essential functions of a northbridge chip have not really changed over the years. As a matter of fact, the recent AMD systems have become less dependent on the northbridge chipset because of the fact that the memory controller is now integrated into the processors. Taking this into consideration, asking a single question here might perhaps make things a bit clearer:

Question: Is it possible to use 2 ATI cards in conjunction, albeit *without * the use of SLI/AMR on current motherboards that do have 2 PCI-E slots that the graphics cards can use?

Answer: Yes, it is possible to use the 2 ATI cards independent of each other for a dual monitor configuration.

Since the above question is true, why is it unfair to expect ATI to be able to synchronize the cards, just as 3dfx did, either with or without connectors, but without the need of an additional chipset on the motherboard? Furthermore, I am sure you realize that it is essentialy the use of the PCI-E bus that makes SLI/AMR possible and this bus already exists on any board using PCI-E slots.

As a result, If ATI could indeed make a "software" solution, they would be able to enable SLI/AMR at the card level and connect the cards together in any means they feel the best and enable this solution to work with any current motherboard that already have 2 PCI-E connections that the graphics cards can fit in.

Having said the above, what is point #2 then? Point #2 is that ATI is UNABLE to create a real software solution as they claimed earlier. I have 2 guesses on why this is. I think ATI either initially believed that they could make a true software solution as they claimed and failed or they knew that they could not surpass nVidia and had to throw a bunch of marketing BS to keep people from buying nVidia cards and wait till ATI came out with a so called "superior" technology. I do not like either of these scenarios however as both pretty much point to ATI not having a concrete solution for SLI anytime soon and just throwing BS around.
 
There is of course another matter as well: Almost 90% of the information we know about ATI's AMR/SLI has come from the Inquirer, which I do not believe to be a very reliable source.

Add this most recent article they published to the mix and matters look even worse than they did earlier:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23053

Master and Slave cards? Sounds like a marketing nightmare to me...
 
It can not be done soley because that the latencies would be too high to go to the northbridge and back. If there was a way, NVidia would have done it. They did 'come up with it first'.

Whether the use of a connector (probably just a double-ended dvi cable) is required or not, the magic is that the drivers are able to make two different cards work together, something NVidia can't do at the moment.

As for master cards, it couldn't be possible. Retailers would have to double their SKUs and pay a premium for the extra cards. Resellers will refuse this. It would also cause compatibility probems when people try and put two together or whatnot. It would be maddness. This will probably be solved in the drivers.

As for the two solutions, I would lean with one. Number 2 is on intel's level.




Basing things off of the Inquierer is fun, isn't it? Yay for speculation and 'inside sources'! Scary thing is they are usualy pretty darn accurate.
 
Zulu-1 said:
*sniff*
woooo
there's a looot of fanboyism in here right now!
albeit, the x850 series is slightly faster than the 6800 ultra.. but how much longer did it take to come out?

:)

Not long at all..for myslef. I got mine right when it was launched.
 
pwnt by pat said:
It can not be done soley because that the latencies would be too high to go to the northbridge and back. If there was a way, NVidia would have done it. They did 'come up with it first'.

Precisely! If there was a true "software" solution, you would think that nVidia would have done it already. You are correct of course. They did come up with SLI and in my opinion, it has finally matured to a point where there are few bugs and ATI has a long way to go in catching up to nVidia.

pwnt by pat said:
Whether the use of a connector (probably just a double-ended dvi cable) is required or not, the magic is that the drivers are able to make two different cards work together, something NVidia can't do at the moment.

Yes, that's ATI's one and only triumph card IF it turns out to be true. Once again, we are making assumptions here based on Inquirer which is as good as deciding if it is going to rain or not today by rolling dice.

If the rumor turns out to be true however, I don't see this being a huge deal either. When 2 different cards are used together, the slower card will always hinder the faster card and bring it down to its level so nobody will want to pair a newer faster card with a slower card. Also remember that this will not effect just clock speed but the features of the cards as well. As a result, if you go and grab a Fudo down the line and want to use its new features, you would have to use it by itself or with another Fudo.

You could also try to pair let's say a 9800 pro with an X800 XL but then the XL will work the same as a second 9800 pro and the features of the XL side, it is to be seen if this combination would beat a single X800 XL on a clock by clock basis.

I just think it would be foolish to mix and match cards together in either case.

pwnt by pat said:
As for master cards, it couldn't be possible. Retailers would have to double their SKUs and pay a premium for the extra cards. Resellers will refuse this. It would also cause compatibility probems when people try and put two together or whatnot. It would be maddness. This will probably be solved in the drivers.

As for the two solutions, I would lean with one. Number 2 is on intel's level.

Yes, I think we agree here that solution #2 could not be made more ridiculous. I am tempted to believe that someone threw out this idea to Inquirer just for mock comedy.


pwnt by pat said:
Basing things off of the Inquierer is fun, isn't it? Yay for speculation and 'inside sources'! Scary thing is they are usualy pretty darn accurate.

Hehe, at Inquirer, I think "inside sources" is the same thing as people with some intuition and mostly nonsense.

If the Inquirer was a regular news magazine, it would be the type of magazine that you see at grocery stores where the cover stories are along the lines of aliens abducting cats and making them 50 times bigger and sending them to far away galaxies as support troops.
 
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I believe there is a tabloid called the Inquirer, too. Their stories used to be almost believeable. Now it's rediculous. They don't even use photoshop. They use MSpaint that came with win95.
 
It's extremely sad to watch people grow defensive about their computer components. If you're happy with what you have then stop whining. ATI and nVidia both have their advantages. 3 years ago I was nVidia ti4600 boy. 2 years ago I was ATI 9700 pro boy. Last year I was nVidia 6800gt and then 6800 ultra boy, and right now I am nVidia 6600gt boy. If I can't get my 2x6600gt SLI to work I am going to get an ATI X800XL probably. I am very open-minded to good buys and good performance for each dollar that I spend. Everything is not about "what's better." It's about "what makes you happy," and "what saves you money."
 
g0dM@n said:
It's extremely sad to watch people grow defensive about their computer components. If you're happy with what you have then stop whining. ATI and nVidia both have their advantages. 3 years ago I was nVidia ti4600 boy. 2 years ago I was ATI 9700 pro boy. Last year I was nVidia 6800gt and then 6800 ultra boy, and right now I am nVidia 6600gt boy. If I can't get my 2x6600gt SLI to work I am going to get an ATI X800XL probably. I am very open-minded to good buys and good performance for each dollar that I spend. Everything is not about "what's better." It's about "what makes you happy," and "what saves you money."

What you say is true. What the real problem these days is "what makes you happy" is usually not something that saves you money.

Ed has an article about this on the front page. The article itself is about building an Athlon 64 rig but I am going to quote the section from that article where he is talking about video cards:

Ed Stroligo - 5/8/05 said:
"Video Card: $250-$350 I don't see how you can get a video card that can cajoled into near high-end performance for less than $250 these days. I'm leaning towards an ATI x800XL for about $300, but I'm pretty unhappy about that choice, and it's really like choosing the lesser of the evils. The x800XL delivers pretty good default performance, but the GPU doesn't seem to have much overclocking ability (which is probably due to its lack of an secondary power connector). The x800XL Pro can overclock more, but has disabled pipelines. A nVidia 6800GT doesn't generally do better than an XL, but costs a good deal more.

I really don't like being unhappy with a $300 video card".

Now that I want to upgrade, I see that I feel exactly the way Ed feels. I don't want to spend $300+ and not be happy about a game at 1024x768 without even AA or AF.

Granted, Everquest II is an extreme example here as it has been designed for next generation cards and yet there are lots of other titles out there that can't run with much eye candy even with an nVidia 6800 Ultra SLI setup. For instance, if you have an LCD with a native resolution of 1600x1200 and you don't want to sacrifice much image quality by dropping the resolution, you might not be able to truly enjoy a lot of titles out there right now.

See, if I could get an 6800 SLI GT setup for about $400 right now, I would probably go ahead and do it and wait until the new generation cards came out but a 6800 SLI GT setup costs more like $800 right now. That $800 *would* be OK if this setup were to stay as the top of the line system for a while where I could enjoy every game for at least about a year but if EQ2 is any indication, this is unlikely to happen.
 
To be completely honest with you, having only one 6600gt hooked up in my computer is actually surprisingly good. Considering that my SLI isn't working, I'm actually only running the primary pci-x slot.
 
g0dM@n said:
To be completely honest with you, having only one 6600gt hooked up in my computer is actually surprisingly good. Considering that my SLI isn't working, I'm actually only running the primary pci-x slot.

I believe you and don't think that this is surprising at all. It all depends on what you are playing. Some of the newest games run extremely well even on hardware that is 4 years old. There are only certain titles out there that require the maximum power from the GPU. If these games that require extreme power are the games that you play the most often however, you might not be satisfied with what you have.

I still do play a bunch of strategy games and old RPGs like Baldur's Gate II as well. For those games, I couldn't care less about what GPU I was using. I could play most of the older games I own on an integrated chipset.

I am putting all the blame on the game developers here. :)

EDIT: Re-reading my post, it kinda sounded like I was implying that you were playing all old games. I did not want to imply this at all. Like I said, there are lots of games out there that came out not more than a few weeks ago that still play great with less than moderate hardware. I was saying that I still play a lot of old games myself but get a bit disappointed with my 9700 pro these days when playing some of the new titles I like.
 
I assume it's possible that they could do this since supposedly it's been used with 9700's but I seriously doubt it. I highly doubt we will see many new boards with AGP, at least on the high end.
 
Black_Paladin said:
I believe you and don't think that this is surprising at all. It all depends on what you are playing. Some of the newest games run extremely well even on hardware that is 4 years old. There are only certain titles out there that require the maximum power from the GPU. If these games that require extreme power are the games that you play the most often however, you might not be satisfied with what you have.

I still do play a bunch of strategy games and old RPGs like Baldur's Gate II as well. For those games, I couldn't care less about what GPU I was using. I could play most of the older games I own on an integrated chipset.

I am putting all the blame on the game developers here. :)

EDIT: Re-reading my post, it kinda sounded like I was implying that you were playing all old games. I did not want to imply this at all. Like I said, there are lots of games out there that came out not more than a few weeks ago that still play great with less than moderate hardware. I was saying that I still play a lot of old games myself but get a bit disappointed with my 9700 pro these days when playing some of the new titles I like.
Actually, you're right and exactly on point with how I see it. The funny thing is that when I had my MSI Neo2 I had a 6800gt in it, and then upgraded to a 6800 ultra... to me it was a waste of money. I moved onto the NF4 by getting my DFI and I really couldn't be happier with my 6600gt. I bought a 2nd one only b/c I wanted to play around with SLI. I played source with the 6800gt and ultra when I had the AGP system and it was hot. I can now play source with the 6600gt and Steam automatically sets the AA and AF lower to accomodate for the lower-end gpu, but it doesn't bother me at all to have low AA/AF. I think it still looks great! :)

I just wish I could get my SLI to work. I was so ****ed off after trying over and over and it didn't work :(. If I have time I just may have to redo my mod.
 
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