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For all you watercooling nuts out there - hard data

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water wetter decreases the freezing point by ONE degree and improves performance in a car up to 15% by breaking up the surface tention. i haven't gone into the issue of additives in your coolant, but basically how it boils down is that additives should be considered just that - an additive, something extra, a way to possibly add a small edge to your performance curve, in the range of 3%-5% - it's not anything you can take to the bank however and doesn't even come close be being "superior" in any fashion of the word. these two topics aren't even in the same ballpark. additives are just that. extra.

heres some good info on waterwetter from the company
http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm

welcome to the forums btw! :)

PS word from the WaterWetter company when i emailed them was to use no more then 5% waterwetter in a computer cooled system without seeing drastically diminished returns in performance.
 
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Hachet said:
Excellent info r0ckstarbob. Thanks for taking the time to post it. I've got a question about the methanol mixture. When it's mixed w/ H20 33/66, is there any chance of this being flamable? Also are there any special considerations in terms of tubing and other gear?
Thanks again.
:D

THANKS!

methanol IS flamable. 100% methanol has a flash point of 12C and a boiling point of 64.7C. Thats pure Methanol though. Mix it with water and that ratio goes rocketing to the bottom. I'm not entirely certain but i'm pretty certain reading in a couple of places where they said that if the amount of Methanol is below 58% or so, then it will not light at all. i'll try to dig up the links.

that being the case, then the answer to your question is "no" a 33:66 ratio Methanol/Water coolant solution will not be flamable.

as far as special equipment, no. nothing in particular. it has no detectable Ph Balance which means that it's non- corrosive but it should be mentioned that it's not dielectric either so you don't want to spill it on your board. something to remember is that it IS thinner then water so you'll want to make doubly sure that your hose clamps are fastened properly and that you have a nice tight fit around the nozzles of you waterblock/radiator to prevent leakage.

let us know how it goes. sounds like you've got a great opportunity to do some intense overclocking!

PS. watchout for condensation! :)

heres the MSDS form for Methanol
http://www.bu.edu/es/LabSafety/ESMSDSs/MSMethanol.html
 
Sounds like it's a "go" for the methanol. I should be installing this coming week, I'll keep you posted. I might even do a few hours of running w/ only water and record the temps, then switch over to the methanol mixture and record temps again. Thanks for the link to the MSDS for methanol, that's got some important info.

"PS. watchout for condensation!"

Thanks for tip. I just ordered the Dow Corning Conformal Coating Kit from octools.:)
 
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I note so far you have only used organic additives. Since these are all molecular structures they have an affect on the specific gravity and the viscosity of water. They therefore have an effect on the heat conduction since the the additive has different conductive properties to the vehicle (water). Have you given any thought to the use or inorganic salts. Sodium chloride is used in most countries to prevent icing of roads since it reduces the freezing point of water to -17C. There are many salts that don't necessarily corrode. For example try copper sulphate in a copper based cooling system or even silver nitrate. Just a thought, as you may find that there is actually an improvement over water alone.
 
good point. can you come up with or provide any data? that would be some useful knowlege...

it's something i thought about but never looked into very much... we talked about it... there was a thread about it awhile back... in fact it was how i met karsta funny enough...
 
Tiger said:
For example try copper sulphate in a copper based cooling system or even silver nitrate. Just a thought, as you may find that there is actually an improvement over water alone.

Copper sulphate (or some other copper salt) could be excellent idea! I don't know about properties of copper sulphate solution (freezing point at given consentration, heat conductivity etc.) but it is soluble in water and methanol, is not highly toxic (except by ingestion), is a germicide and has beautiful blue color!

Silver nitrate is not so good though, it is strongly oxidizing, caustic (like sodium hydroxide) and highly toxic and a strong irritant.

Edit:
Aluminium would probably reduce copper cations of copper sulphate to metallic copper and oxidize itself. Would this mean that aluminium parts in copper sulphate solution would get copper surface (esp. if current was applied)?
 
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okay, hers how it works

copper sulphate aka blue vitriol


is blue
called "copper electrolyte" in its aqueneous form
disolves in water @ 3 kg copper sulphate per 10 litres of water before it hits its saturation point...

unlike me, who's hit my saturation point on this topic. if someone can fill in the gaps here, it'd certainly be appreciated. i'm tapped out and burnt out diggin around for this stuff. if it works, great... if its better, even better. anyone who can provide some data on it would certainly put me in their debt. have just spend the past 6 hours looking and comming up with only what you see above you.

i'm tanked. hope someone can field this, and preferrably give some comparable numbers so we have something to reference it against.

what does it do to the water?
whats the freezing point of a saturated electrolyte mixture?
how does it affect the Viscosity or the Thermal Differential of water? (conductivity as a % capacity)
wheres my beer?

<-------- to bed fer crissakes!

*ugh*

i. am. not. a. chemist. i'm. a. graphic. designer. and. ergonomic. engineer. my. face. is. melllllting......

*karump!!!*

scott hits the pillow
 
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Uh, Sorry. I kind of forgot it.

I made a quick search of it with Scifinder but found no articles I could get easily (but there is interesting papers about thermal properties of electrolyte solutions - in russian many of those I'm afraid). I got impression that thermal data about copper sulphate solutions should be available because it frequently used electrolyte. I haven't been to library to make a manual search. I suppose there is table books with this information (didn't find from Handbook of Chemistry and Physics).
 
I'll check when I have time. Anyway, I think that salts like copper sulphate can not be used with very low temperatures or that solution would have to be then dilute.

I am still planning my water cooling system. Now I think I will do something more basic - start with cpu block and gather experiences and then possibly go further. I am still not quite aware of all the factors contributing and the system has to be very efficient in long term use (no flash clocking). I made Vcore mod for the KG7R - highest voltage I've used so far is 2.03V which translates to 121W at 1655 MHz. Temperature rose to max 53° with Prime95 with air cooling. That kind of wattages will warm up the water quite efficiently I'm afraid, so I have to find a good radiator. If I add chipset and o/ced GF3 to water cooling it will be about 40W more... (Need more efficient PSU too)
 
No it is not. Copper sulphate is copper(II) salt of sulfuric acid.

And about link. It is nice article but I think it won't give the answers needed as such. It is true that lowering of the freezing point can be calculated and probably also thermal conductivity and solubility. But it is not quite that simple for real solutions. Also the lowering of the freezing point using only copper sulphate wouldn't be so large.
 
The following link will help explain my reference above. Given the formula in this article it would then be possible to arrive at a concentration of solute (dissolved salt) to achieve the desired freezing point. What is important is that calculations are based on the molecular weight and not on arbitrary weights.
http://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/ColligProp/BP-Elev-and-FP-Lower.html
The following link shows an example of how to calculate;
http://learn.chem.vt.edu/tutorials/solutions/fpdepress.html
 
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wow tiger... thats very cool. thanks for the tip. just curiously, can you do the math and give us some results? that level of math is a little beyond my comprehension. i can compare numbers and do a limited amount of conversion and so forth, but after that i'm about sunk.
 
On Surface Tention and The Barrier Layer

i have this same post over at the [H]ardforums (which incidentally also got stickied to the top over there - YAY) the post is even under the same name and is about word for word the same thing. incidentally this post is also over at the AMDmB forums too.

at any rate, it's been really cool to see the different responses and see the different questions come up. this one is from the [H]ardforums. someone asked about how surface tention and the boundry layer all came into play so thought i'd post it over here for general overall knowlege. i suspect someone woulda asked the question sooner or later anyhow, so perhaps i'm beating it to the punch.

enough babblin. here goes.

PS the friend i mention with the PhD in Chemical Engineering, isn't you Karsta. it's someone who started backchanneling me a little while ago and is also been of great help.

***

Amadon said:
This is some of the best data I have seen posted on the forums.. ever.
Thanks a million bro.
Although I'm not one to go in for sub ambient cooling, mainly because of the maintinence and that I'm paranoid, my following topic applies to both watercooling without a phase change system or peltier units.. and to the opposite.

The thing that I haven't seen addressed is surface tension.
I know very little about it really. But I assume that it is not caused by air "touching" the water. I DO know that if the surface tension is broken.. say.. with soap, that the water flows more freely over a surface.
Couldn't one conclude then that a lack of surface tension, at least in thin (as in depth) water creates a more favorable viscosity?


I always thought this was probably how water wetter helped.

Tell me if I'm wrong. or onto something.

Amadon

okay this is what i've gathered. this is in part from an extremely helpful friend with a PhD in chemical engineering (whom i've been in correspondence with about this) and is a summary of what i've learned about surface tention and the boundry layer having been put into my own words more or less.

theres surface tention and theres the barrier layer. whats the boundry layer you ask?

when a fluid moves across a non moving surface, there is a point where the fluid comes into contact with that surface. (obviously). we'll call the surface the Block.
when liquid moves over the block, the surface of the liquid reacts against the friction of the Block where they contact one another and the motion on the surface of the liquid slows down or stops at that contact point. this is called the boundry layer.

as we know, moving liquid quickly across a surface is what provides us the best heat transfer performance. when any or all of that liquid stops moving and sits there due to the friction it's encountering, it's suddenly doing a less efficient job. the liquid now composing the boundry layer is relying on normal convection to warm itself up enough so it rises off the block (and thus out of the barrier layer) and to be swept back into the waterflow. it's only when it warms up enough to leave the boundry layer due to normal convection that it's replaced with something cooler and the cooling cycle can continue.

creating a small amount of turbulence on the surface of the block will prevent the boundry layer from forming and thus increase the Heat Transfer potential of your apparatus. this can be achieved by soldering little nubs on the surface of your water-passages or simply by roughing it up with small perpendicular grooves in the surface of the metal (such as with a file or rasp). you can also run a small wire or spring (if the channel is big enough) down the length of your tubing if you're relying on your tubing to provide you with some of your cooling ability. (anyone not using copper piping for this last technique should forget it as rubber/nylon/vinyl/silicone tubing isn't heating or cooling your liquid one way or the other and theres really no point - on a slightly different note, this technique might help you guys with radiator problems looking to grab another couple of degrees of cooling power from it. i haven't tested it, but in theory it should be a decent idea).

basically you just want to find a way to interrupt the water that crosses across the surface of the block to prevent the boundry layer from forming.

summary: the boundary layer impedes heat transfer and it becomes thicker with increasing fluid viscosities.

However, the surface tension is a little different in that it reflects how much a fluid spreads out on a solid surface (i.e. low surface tension) vs beading up on a solid surface (i.e. high surface tension) if you wait long enough (equilibrium). The viscosity will affect how fast(rate)the fluid will spread out or bead up. The surface tension is the property which reflects the fluid's ability to wet a surface.

Even if a fluid has a low surface tension and can potentially wet a surface very well, it is not good for heat transfer if the fluid is too viscous and slooows its speed to wet or be replaced by itself with new cooler fluid
(surface renewal). Thus, even though you need the surface to be wetted (low surface tension) you also need it to be easily replaced (low viscosity).

That's why glycol sucks, incidently, compared to water or water/methanol as a transfer fluid in cooling applications. Glycol finds it specific use when
you need to increase the boiling point as well as use it as a heat transfer medium as in autos.

basically by breaking up the surface tention you're increasing the heat transfer potential of your liquid by making it less sticky to itself. you're essentially making the water more fragile and easier to break up which allows for better turbulence on the surface against the block.

use a combination of the two methods to break up the boundry layer on the block and decrease the surface tention of your liquid and you're rockin like dokken.

basically the boundry layer can be addressed by altering the surface of the block. the surface tention can be addressed by treating the liquid. and both techniques can and should be used in collaboration with one another to recieve the most performance out of your heat exchanger AND your coolant if at all possible.

hope that explains things a bit better.
 
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Hey Bob -you have a good friend! That was a good and informative writing about surface tension and boundary layer.

About those calculations. That formula holds ideal approximation but if we use it we see the following:
Let's think we have 1 molal solution of copper sulfate pentahydrate (M = 249.69 g/mol) which would mean about 250 g of copper sulfate in 1 liter (1 kg) water -I am not saying that it is possible.
molal freezing point depression constant of water is 1.86 Kkg/mol so we would get 2 x 1.86 Kkg/mol x 1 mol/kg = 3,72 degree depression on freezing point with that 1 mole of copper sulfate. Not much I would say.
 
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