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So i was in DFI's new irc support and ....

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Meathead

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Location
westminster, CO
Atleast I got an answer from a Mod this time. If you don't know about my problem. I have to remove a stick of ram everytime I warm/cold boot. I don't mind having the cold boot issue aspect of it but not being able to warmboot is a bit frustrating. Heres my convo with Angry_games. If its not ok to post this please don't freak out, just ask me to take it down and I will.

-03:37:59- (Jibby) you got a bit to help me out angry?
-03:41:04- (@Angry_Director) speak man
-03:41:20- (@Angry_Director) i got a zillion things going on at once and i am trying to get off to go to bed so speak
-03:41:29- (@Angry_Director) but ill warn you first
-03:41:39- (@Angry_Director) you should have posted whatever problem you are having in the forum at www.dfi-street.com
-03:41:48- (Jibby) I have trust me
-03:42:00- (Jibby) never got answered with something that helped
-03:42:11- (Jibby) posted of ocforums.com and xtremesystems.org
-03:42:12- (Jibby) also
-03:42:13- (@Angry_Director) and if you have not, dont bother to ask the question here if it is support related as i will instruct you to go there first and read teh rules, then make a post after you have searched the forums to see if anyone has had the same problem
-03:42:27- (@Angry_Director) give me the link then if you have posted it at dfi-street
-03:42:32- (Jibby) k
-03:43:27- (Jibby) http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showpost.php?p=275096&postcount=4
-03:43:39- (Jibby) thats the single post
-03:43:40- (Jibby) thread
-03:43:41- (Jibby) http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28733
-03:43:42- (Jibby) here
-03:44:10- (Jibby) I know theres a cold boot issue but why do I have a warm boot issue also?
-03:44:21- (Jibby) Im not using the 4v jumper im using the 3.3v trick
-03:44:30- (Jibby) 3.3v rail is at 3.55
-03:44:55- (Jibby) I've personally taken my ram to mushkin
-03:45:04- (Jibby) they've tested it and confirmed it was perfectly good ram
-03:45:33- (@Angry_Director) lol mushkin redline
-03:45:36- (@Angry_Director) *sigh*
-03:45:45- (@Angry_Director) get rid of it, or get rid of your DFI motherboard
-03:45:47- (@Angry_Director) one or the other
-03:45:56- (Jibby) umm
-03:46:45- (Jibby) are you kidding me? thats your fix for this problem?
-03:47:11- (@Angry_Director) if anyone comes to me with Redline Mushkin or OCZ VX4000
-03:47:15- (@Angry_Director) that is the answer I give them
-03:47:23- (@Angry_Director) why?
-03:47:25- (@Angry_Director) ill tell ya why
-03:47:30- (Jibby) cuz you don't care?
-03:47:47- (@Angry_Director) because these two particular sets of memory have a nasty habit of dying on this motherboard, or not dying but just not booting properly anymore
-03:48:12- (Jibby) it wouldn't have anything to do with the cold boot issue right?
-03:48:19- (@Angry_Director) they are made with Winbond CH-5 dies for the most part and Winbond CH-5 die is only a .15micron die, while true BH-5 dies are .175micron, a much much thicker and hardier die to accept high voltages through
-03:48:51- (@Angry_Director) CH-5, being the thin die that it is, gets a lot of voltage to it constantly and wears it down if not outright killing it
-03:49:25- (@Angry_Director) then you have things like electron migration that happens within silicon (thin silicon) when high voltages are applied to it
-03:49:32- (Jibby) well it does the same thing with my bh-5 sticks
-03:49:40- (Jibby) I do have bh-5 sticks
-03:49:43- • @Angry_Director shrugs
-03:49:47- (@Angry_Director) then get the motherboard replaced
-03:50:06- (@Angry_Director) i dont use nor recommend VX nor Redline in these boards
-03:50:11- (@Angry_Director) i try to steer everyone away
-03:50:22- (@Angry_Director) memory companies always pass the blame off to the board
-03:50:26- (@Angry_Director) so i say get the board replaced
-03:50:35- (@Angry_Director) if you have the same problem, and the memory companies try to blame it on the board still
-03:50:43- (@Angry_Director) then you know to get some different memory from a different company
-03:50:57- (Jibby) I coulda sworn this board was praised because of the 4v jumper and able to utilize high voltage ram without serious modding
-03:51:14- (Jibby) atleast thats the impression I got from everywhere I went when I bought it
-03:51:15- (@Angry_Director) as you are not going to get two bad boards in a row, but when you mix certain combinations of board/memory like this, you will always see this problem...we can replace your board 10000 times and it will still not work properly with these two kinds of RAM
-03:51:21- • @Angry_Director shrugs again
-03:51:32- (@Angry_Director) i use BH-5 @ 3.5v 24/7 @ 250x11
-03:51:59- (@Angry_Director) I've always used BH-5 or BH-5 UTT @ 3.3v - 3.5v @ 250-260 and have never killed any memory
-03:52:17- (@Angry_Director) i also know the value of keeping that 4v jumper VERY cool with some serious airflow when doing it
-03:52:21- (@Angry_Director) most people dont
-03:52:29- (Jibby) so should I try to get mushkin to RMA the ram or let me get their TCCD sticks?
-03:52:39- (@Angry_Director) and end up killing the board because they dont realize that jumper gets about 160°C with no airflow
-03:52:55- (Jibby) yea I know that part but I'm not using the 4v jumper
-03:53:01- (Jibby) so it shouldn't be a problem
-03:53:15- (@Angry_Director) or it might kill the RAM because after that 4v regulator gets hot, it tends to spike when you don't keep it cool
-03:53:24- (@Angry_Director) the problem is you are passing 3.3v or more into that memory
-03:53:42- (@Angry_Director) after time, Redline and VX degrades
-03:53:50- (@Angry_Director) its a well documented issue with plenty of forum posts
-03:54:03- (@Angry_Director) ive never been able to kill them but i dont discount those that have
-03:54:08- (@Angry_Director) so my answer is
-03:54:11- (Jibby) Can you link me if you can?
-03:54:16- (@Angry_Director) replace the board, or get some different memory
-03:54:21- (@Angry_Director) you know how to use a search button i am sure
-03:54:41- (Jibby) w/e thanks for the help
-03:54:44- (@Angry_Director) search is very useful and should be used liberally at any forum for hte most information possible
-03:55:57- (Jibby) Yea I know what search is

After that, Angry_Games got real nasty and I saved all of it but chose not to release it unless angry games ****es me off again by telling me to sell my ram like he did later on if I want my problems to go away.

So, I'm being told by mushkin its DFI's board that is not up to par and I'm being told by DFI its mushkins faulty ram. I'm lost on what to do. Based on Angry_games logic, bh-5 should work fine. I dunno if he was hoping I didn't have any bh-5 but I have 2 trusty sticks and the bh-5 has the same problem with the board. If its such a big issue, why hasn't DFI made a huge sticky saying don't use one of the main features of the board (the 4v jumper) with mushkin and ocz ram. I'm gonna RMA the board and sell this piece and pick up an epox or abit board.

*EDIT* I just found out why from Angry_games himself why they don't have a sticky about issues with the board and UTT.
-04:19:44- (Jibby) please add a post thats stickied
-04:19:47- (Jibby) that says
-04:19:50- (Jibby) beware
-04:19:51- (@Angry_Director) how about read what i already said
-04:19:52- (@Angry_Director) we did
-04:19:54- (@Angry_Director) you didnt listen
-04:19:56- (@Angry_Director) so we took it down
-04:20:01- (@Angry_Director) because just like right now
-04:20:03- (@Angry_Director) you dont listen

*2nd EDIT* He also told me the expert board was being made to fix NO PROBLEMS WITH THE DFI BOARD. He said the expert board was being made to fix problems with the nf4 chipset.
 
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don't expect to get anywhere with that guy ...he has some issues and he's always right (if you know what i mean).

he's done the same thing to me and others before, best thing you can do is stop posting at dfi-street.....you won't get any help if you bring up issues with the board because they always lay the blame elsewhere.
 
I'm going to agree. I had heard about how good dfi-street was before puchasing a DFI product. I registered there after recieving my board. No help to be had over there, only rude comments and finger pointing. You're better off sticking around here and xtremesystems forums. At least the folks are nicer :)

J.
 
agreed - the dfi staff/support folks are lame..... its never their cr@ppy products that cause the problems...its always the user...grrr
 
be warned, i have 1 set of "classic BH-5" sticks (and 3 sets of UTT) that wont boot in ANY computer after using them in the DFI.

(IMHO)
GET RID OF THAT MOBO ASAP!

EDIT: although i will (also) tell you that i *think* 1 set of the UTT was "killed" in a MSI mobo with an OCZ DDR Booster...
i wont be using UTT or DFI ANYTIME soon!!
 
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Hmm, they call that "support"? I wonder what the mushkin guys around here think. That 4V thing is getting me worried. I just installed a 80mm fan blowing right on top of the jumper area. Hopefully, that'll keep it cool.
 
You just need to know how to talk to those guys. I'm not saying that you were in the wrong, but try to imagine this - tons of enthusiast buy DFI products now, and they often recieve A LOT of flak for their motherboards. If you don't remember, DFI had an official support forum on AMDBoards for quite some time...after the launch of the NF2, constant consumer flaming forced them away from the forum and caused them to create DFI Street where they could moderate the posts as they see fit.

Like I said, I am not trying to make excuses here, but try to recognize that people like AG and RGone are doing all of us a favor by even having DFI-Street and IRC channels, which are not funded by DFI themselves. Remember, you can more bees with honey ;)

deception``
 
03:47:47- (@Angry_Director) because these two particular sets of memory have a nasty habit of dying on this motherboard, or not dying but just not booting properly anymore
-03:48:12- (Jibby) it wouldn't have anything to do with the cold boot issue right?
DFI uses inferior FETs on their board and hence why they are sinked. They cannot take the full load of 4v and simply pray people do not use it. This is why no high voltage ram works in this board properly and why the 4v jumper does not work right either

[-03:48:19- (@Angry_Director) they are made with Winbond CH-5 dies for the most part and Winbond CH-5 die is only a .15micron die, while true BH-5 dies are .175micron, a much much thicker and hardier die to accept high voltages through
-03:48:51- (@Angry_Director) CH-5, being the thin die that it is, gets a lot of voltage to it constantly and wears it down if not outright killing it
-03:49:25- (@Angry_Director) then you have things like electron migration that happens within silicon (thin silicon) when high voltages are applied to it

It is *NOT* winbond, nor is it CH5. Our redline as does OCZ's VX uses a .13nm Infineon die which is produced to Winbond *type* spec. UTT is not technically winbond as much as it is infineon. Since the die isnt labled it is really neither. It is CH-type (because of the die process is similar to CH5) UTT period.

-03:49:32- (Jibby) well it does the same thing with my bh-5 sticks
-03:49:40- (Jibby) I do have bh-5 sticks
-03:49:43- • @Angry_Director shrugs
-03:49:47- (@Angry_Director) then get the motherboard replaced
-03:50:06- (@Angry_Director) i dont use nor recommend VX nor Redline in these boards
-03:50:11- (@Angry_Director) i try to steer everyone away
-03:50:22- (@Angry_Director) memory companies always pass the blame off to the board
Fact: The fets are bad. Period. The board 99.9% of the time *is* to blame.


-03:50:26- (@Angry_Director) so i say get the board replaced
-03:50:35- (@Angry_Director) if you have the same problem, and the memory companies try to blame it on the board still
-03:50:43- (@Angry_Director) then you know to get some different memory from a different company

The whole series is to blame. *All* boards whos fets are inferior will not work right. So its about a 50:50 shot depending on where and when your board was made

-03:50:57- (Jibby) I coulda sworn this board was praised because of the 4v jumper and able to utilize high voltage ram without serious modding
-03:51:14- (Jibby) atleast thats the impression I got from everywhere I went when I bought it
The board has serious issues with 4v and it is why they removed the feature on the Expert version. It was a grave mistake of them to have it to begin with.

-03:51:15- (@Angry_Director) as you are not going to get two bad boards in a row, but when you mix certain combinations of board/memory like this, you will always see this problem...we can replace your board 10000 times and it will still not work properly with these two kinds of RAM
-03:51:21- • @Angry_Director shrugs again
-03:51:32- (@Angry_Director) i use BH-5 @ 3.5v 24/7 @ 250x11
-03:51:59- (@Angry_Director) I've always used BH-5 or BH-5 UTT @ 3.3v - 3.5v @ 250-260 and have never killed any memory
Fact: Yes you can. I have seen this many times, his is a handpicked board.

-03:52:39- (@Angry_Director) and end up killing the board because they dont realize that jumper gets about 160°C with no airflow
-03:52:55- (Jibby) yea I know that part but I'm not using the 4v jumper
-03:53:01- (Jibby) so it shouldn't be a problem
-03:53:15- (@Angry_Director) or it might kill the RAM because after that 4v regulator gets hot, it tends to spike when you don't keep it cool

It gets hot and #2 spikes for the many reasons listed. Poor FETs. The problem is not with the "chipset" but *their* design and their design *alone*.

:)

Ive seen alot of boards get flaky for the reasons listed. If you look at say Asus or even MSI they have no problems running with that high of a vdimm while using a booster. Primarly because they use higher grade parts than what DFI does.

**DISCLAIMER**
This is from what I have seen and experienced, I have no outward proof other than the very high RMA rates and complications our RAM and OCZ's have with that motherboard.
 
I think these problems arise becuase Bh5/utt voltage its just the nature of the beast ON ANY BOARD

The 4volt jumper thing should not have been implemented, it was also open knowledge that although it is on the board that it will fug things up. Again this is personel opinion but running 3.5v+ 24/7 for a couple hundred mb/s extra and maybe 3-5fps more is just plain silly.

I only use TCCD/TCC5 and on 5 boards so far not a problem at all overclocking and even after long periods of time :shrug:
 
Sentential....

The bottom line is that working with BH-5/CH-5/UTT has always had risks, even before DFI motherboards. The main problem is that high voltage options were originally only available to those who could volt mod, and these people tended to be relatively knowledgable. With DFI boards, almost anyone can have a wide variety of voltage options available to use.

The memory has not changed, but the pool of individuals/enthusiasts who have access to high voltage has. The bottom line is that DFI nor any other manufacturer is to blame here.

deception``
 
deception`` said:
Sentential....

The bottom line is that working with BH-5/CH-5/UTT has always had risks, even before DFI motherboards. The main problem is that high voltage options were originally only available to those who could volt mod, and these people tended to be relatively knowledgable. With DFI boards, almost anyone can have a wide variety of voltage options available to use.

The memory has not changed, but the pool of individuals/enthusiasts who have access to high voltage has. The bottom line is that DFI nor any other manufacturer is to blame here.

deception``


Thank You :cool:

How can anyone expect to put 3.5v+ thru ram and a board and not expect a multitude of problems...

Another thing is I see just as many Asus, MSI and Gigabyte users for the NF4 platform, maybe not on these forums, though.

With the DFI having the high voltage option it would lend you to believe that people would put BH5 on that board most the time :shrug:

which makes DFI a target for the stupidity to begin with, they should have never implemented the option to begin with it is the only downfall of the board.
 
deception`` said:
Sentential....

The bottom line is that working with BH-5/CH-5/UTT has always had risks, even before DFI motherboards. The main problem is that high voltage options were originally only available to those who could volt mod, and these people tended to be relatively knowledgable. With DFI boards, almost anyone can have a wide variety of voltage options available to use.

The memory has not changed, but the pool of individuals/enthusiasts who have access to high voltage has. The bottom line is that DFI nor any other manufacturer is to blame here.

deception``
Quoted for truth but I want to clarify that point. Had they implimented such voltage options better this wouldnt be as much of a problem as it currentally is.
 
Sentential said:
Quoted for truth but I want to clarify that point. Had they implimented such voltage options better this wouldnt be as much of a problem as it currentally is.

This however may be true although releasing a product on the market to run at 3.5+ volts and not tested for long term stability and geared towards a DFI board is half of the equation.
 
Sentential said:
Quoted for truth but I want to clarify that point. Had they implimented such voltage options better this wouldnt be as much of a problem as it currentally is.

Perhaps, but that's not DFI's fault. All they did was listen to enthusiasts and make them more available - Mushkin, OCZ, and others also share some of that blame, too. Redline and VX made BH/CH-die memory, which was once sacred, easy to find and actually cheaper than the very 'safe' TCCD. Don't act like it's DFI's fault alone - the blame is shared across several companies. Memory manufacturers knew the risks of UTT, yet they still released in very high quantities to make a quick profit.

deception``
 
Rattle said:
How can anyone expect to put 3.5v+ thru ram and a board and not expect a multitude of problems...

I've never had a single issue with any of my modded PSUs, MBs, or RAM, when running 3.5v and higher.

It comes down to DFI MBs sucking, DFI support being much worse, and users not knowing what they are doing.
 
there's is truth in the end of that for sure, but I prefer TCCD/TCC5 and there's no high voltage and there's no moving the jumper, therefore no problems.

If having the 4v option on the board and the use of it resulting in the opinion that the board sux then I can accept that.

My line of thought is that BH5/UTT sux !! and without that garbage regardless of the DFI there would be no problems.

Chicken or the egg ?
 
guillaume said:
guys, just from a layman's perspective: is enabling the jumper to 4V and running the RAM at 3.2V posing a potential issue, or is it when you feed the RAM 3.5V and above?

The 4V jumper is for voltages over 3.3 volts. DO NOT run less than that with the 4V jumper. Statesment such as that prove just how little some people know about these options before they try them.

Guillaume - no offense, please. I am simply trying to point out that the use of this jumper is still mystifying to some people. Don't take my comment as a personal attack :)

deception``
 
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