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Trying Ubuntu, few questions

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Misfit138 said:
My problem is, with some of the harder distros, (Debian, Gentoo, Slack) I can't even get started because they are so escoteric, and it discourages me.
I don't enjoy so many roadblocks along the way, and waiting for forum responses just to get an OS installed! I keep screaming "WHY IS THIS SO HARD!?!?!?!"

I'd say anything new is hard at first. Fixing problems and doing research is how you learn. I think a good analogy could be made to any academic course you've take, like math. In math you are given problems and you have to solve them. They don't just give you the answer and say "it is what it is." Slackware makes you interact, so you get problems that you have to solve. Ubuntu is more like just being given the answers. You can learn just by being given the answers, but you get a deeper understanding when you have to solve problems.
 
"Why such an aversion to RPMs, LOL?"

Because RPM does not have automatic dependency checking. That means if you install package A, you need to manually download and install package B and C if they are dependencies... then B and C have dependencies, and so on and so forth. A large install can easily hae 200+ dependencies or more (like KDE, Gnome, X, etc.) RPM doesn't handle this automatically, so you are left to find, compile, and install them all yourself, making sure that in doing so, the new versions don't interfere with other software you have installed. Yum can handle some of these functions, but it still just installs a few packages off your CD's, it's nowhere near as comprehensive as something like apt (debian, ubuntu, mepis, xandros, etc.) or portage (gentoo) which have enormous package repositories open to the public with many thousands of packages that are constantly updated.

This is why everyone who has used RPM distros and more sophisticated package management systems hates RPM's so much. It's just too hard to get stuff working.

Generally, distros like Red Hat, Fedora, PCLinuxOS are quite easy to install out of the box. They install and just work fine. The problem comes later when you want to add new software. It took me 2 days to get a media player working because I had to find/build/download/install all the dependencies in red hat. The same thing in Gentoo took 1 command, "emerge vlc", and it did everything for me.

I don't want to have to worry about dependencies, I want it to be taken care of automatically.

RPM/yum is a relic of a former era, when computers did not routinely have connections to the internet and installs were all done from CD's.

"My problem is, with some of the harder distros, (Debian, Gentoo, Slack) I can't even get started"

I wouldn't recommend Gentoo or Slack for a beginner. Debian would probably be ok, but there are easier distros out there. Gentoo is very easy to use once you get it installed, but the install is a pretty big hill to get over first. That's why people suggest things like Ubuntu, Xandros, Mepis, and the like. These all have both simple, automated installs AND good package management so you can install things later on without the hell of RPM's. Gentoo doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out, it's really not that bad once you get a few basic concepts down, but it's definitely harder to install than most distros. Once installed though, it's the easiest distro to use (imho).
 
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What MRD just said, is the reason I quit trying to learn Linux before Fedora was anything more then a sideproject/Beta distro.

Kubuntu/Ubuntu has renewed my interest and I have not had any real issues so far in getting it running with the extra programs that I want/need.

Drives that die during installs are a different story.
*goes back to looking for a max of 40 gb drive for a smoothwall*
 
I think I am misunderstanding something, as I was under the impression that Synaptic (PCLINUXOS' package manager) was merely a front end for apt (?) Wherein all dependencies are automatically figured out.
When I want to download and install a new kernel, or wine, for example I just point and click in Synaptic, and when I hit apply, a list is given to me of all related and necessary packages which will also be installed.
Not sure, exactly, but I am missing something. Is 'package management' and 'redhat package management' not synonomous? Perhaps you are assuming that PCLinuxOS uses one or the other in error?
All I know is that I use Synaptic, which as I was told, is nothing more than apt (which you seem to endorse) with a GUI.
 
I just checked wikipedia, and apparently PCLinuxOS is *not* an rpm-based distro. It's derived from Mandriva, which is based on rpm's, but that was one of the changes the designers of PCLinuxOS made... they replaced RPM with APT. APT (Advanced Packaging Tool) does not use RPM's at all. It can install from repositories or using distributed packages called debs.

I apologize for my error, I had always heard that PCLinuxOS was rpm based, but it is not. It uses the same package manager as Debian, Mepis, Xandros, Ubuntu, etc.

I have not personally used it, but since it is not RPM based, I withdraw my automatic objection to any distro using RPM's.

Synaptic is a frontend for APT. If you were using RPM's, you'd be using a frontend tool called yum (still command line based I believe), or installing new software with the command rpm -ivh <packagename.rpm>. This has no automatic dependency checking and you need to resolve all dependencies manually, and find the packages and install them.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I think it is fairly widespread around here, probably because PCLinuxOS is derived from Mandriva, an RPM based distro... so people just assumed it kept the same package management system.
 
No problem.....Perhaps PCLOS has gone up in your estimation, which is a good thing :clap:
PS: I tried installing Gentoo earlier. LOL
I spent about an hour perusing the installation guide (which is very straightforward) and then immediately the issues started.
I was stuck at
coldplugging pnp devices

Machine freezes there.

UGH. I have a long way to go.
 
With Gentoo, all the work is done up front during the install. After that it's cake.

However, for someone really new to linux, the install can be too much to get through.

I won't hate on PCLinuxOS so much now that I know it's not RPM based though. =P I'm still addicted to Gentoo, but APT is a good package manager as well, and handles dependencies nicely.

I was wondering how anyone could use an RPM based distro and actually think it was easy. It all makes sense now. =P If you tried a real RPM based distro, you'd be crying the first time you tried to install new software.
 
Misfit138 said:
I tried installing Gentoo earlier. LOL
I spent about an hour perusing the installation guide (which is very straightforward) and then immediately the issues started.
I was stuck at coldplugging pnp devices

Machine freezes there.

UGH. I have a long way to go.

the documentation for Gentoo is first rate. Their install is definitely the hardest one i've tried. I prefer the BSD or Slackware ncurses/dos type install. I've got 2 boxes on gentoo now and I think they are going to stay that way for a while.
 
Mandriva 2007 has a pretty decent package management system in place now too that seems to be every bit as easy as Ubunutu (in my limited experience). Nothing like the older versions of Mandrake.
 
Hmm.. I have NEVER and I repeat NEVER had any problems, that couldn't be fixed (there are many help boards on the Net, like this one) installing Linux on desktop machines.( I'm either extremely lucky or I ask a lot of questions of the people in the "know" about Linux) I have tried Mandriva, SUSE, Mephis (both Ubuntu sources and before), Kanotix, Mandrake (before it was Mandriva), ARK, Puppy, Beatrix, DSL, but never PCLinuxOS. From previous experience I would recommend a "Debian" type distro for learning. I'm currently "dual" booting two (2) machines (AMD Athlon 64's, X2 4200+, 3000+) with the lastest (EdgyEft) Ubuntu and I have a P4 2.60 with just Kubuntu (EdgyEft). All my machines run F@H, the P4 is folding 24/7. I prefer KDE so I'm using Kubuntu. Although I don't have any laptops (check a Linux Wiki), I haven't had any hardware recognizing problems. I do know from experience that some mobo's won't take Linux. (case in point : never could get Linux to install on my PD 805, Asrock 775DUAL-VSTA :-/ ) As far as the RPM vs DEB thing, I prefer Deb's, it's probably just what you start out with. Linux is getting just like Windows XP with it's "point and click" type installations, not being a "gamer", I've heard Linux still lacked in that department. :(
Oh well, that's my 2 and 1/2 cents worth. :)
Edit: Has anyone tried openSUSE ?
 
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im in a similar situation as well... i just started using linux. ive tried mandrake and debian in the past, and as far as my experiences go, ubuntu is by far the easiest for beginners. just about any program availible for linux can be downloaded and installed through the package manager and i have yet to come across a piece of hardware that ubuntu didnt recognize... this include ipods, as well as my dell dj which was intended only to work on pc's. i would highly reccomend ubuntu since it is so easy to use and takes almost no time to install.

not to steal the thread, but a few people mentioned using more difficult distros to really get to know linux... would fedora be good for that?
 
Ubuntu, in itself was one of the most user-friendly Linux distros I've used. But despite repeated attempts and my most honest efforts, I couldn't get it to use my modem in my laptop. It just wouldn't do it, no matter what I did or how hard I tried. It wasn't bad when I was at work or my g/f's house b/c I could just use my wireless card. It was extremely frustrating at home though, because I wanted to use Ubuntu over Windows. I had to connect to the net through my desktop via ICS. I'm about to try out Fedora Core on my laptop as soon as I get it burned and all my stuff backed up.

BUT with all that said, if you can get all your hardware installed and working properly, it's an incredibly easy to use Linux distro and it's fast too. Since it's hugely popular, there's lots of software for it too.
 
MRD said:
I just checked wikipedia, and apparently PCLinuxOS is *not* an rpm-based distro. It's derived from Mandriva, which is based on rpm's, but that was one of the changes the designers of PCLinuxOS made... they replaced RPM with APT. APT (Advanced Packaging Tool) does not use RPM's at all. It can install from repositories or using distributed packages called debs.

I apologize for my error, I had always heard that PCLinuxOS was rpm based, but it is not. It uses the same package manager as Debian, Mepis, Xandros, Ubuntu, etc.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I think it is fairly widespread around here, probably because PCLinuxOS is derived from Mandriva, an RPM based distro... so people just assumed it kept the same package management system.

Sorry but you are wrong now and not before... your first understanding was actually true.. PCLinuxOS is derived from Mandriva, and is an RPM based distro and does not use DEB packages... all that has happened is that APT manager has been adapted to support RPM, which means Synaptic works also... the dependency problems associated with RPM are still there.
It states in the PCLinuxOS documentation that its a RPM distro which is why I personally will never touch it :D

http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wiki/RPM

http://apt4rpm.sourceforge.net/
 
I'd stay away from fedora. If you want a distro that makes you get into the guts of linux more, check out debian or slackware. Your best bet would be a stage 1 gentoo install if you feel up to it and can still find instructions somewhere.
 
UnseenMenace said:
It states in the PCLinuxOS documentation that its a RPM distro which is why I personally will never touch it :D


I have heard nothing but negative reactions to RPM's and have heard of the dependency nightmares associated with them, BUT- if a knucklehead like me can use PCLINUXOS and not run into even one dependency issue, then the developers did someting right! :D
 
Misfit138 said:
I have heard nothing but negative reactions to RPM's and have heard of the dependency nightmares associated with them, BUT- if a knucklehead like me can use PCLINUXOS and not run into even one dependency issue, then the developers did someting right! :D

Perhaps, but how much have you tried to install from unofficial sources ? :D - In my Ubuntu sources I have a number of APT repositories which are unofficial, when I did this with SuSE, Redhat and Mandriva using APT I hit issues.

Anyway thats the wonderfull thing about Linux, no matter what your taste there is a flavor for you :D
it appreciates the differences in us all, personally ive tried a number of RPM distros, Redhat, SuSE, Mandriva and I personally do not think the RPM format is as good as DEB and this perhaps taints my choice of distro...
 
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UnseenMenace said:
Perhaps, but how much have you tried to install from unofficial sources ? :D - In my Ubuntu sources I have a number of APT repositories which are unofficial, when I did this with SuSE, Redhat and Mandriva using APT I hit issues.

OH! Perhaps now I am starting to understand. Excellent point.

I will say this, though, for all of the buzz I hear concerning how stable Debian is, I was using 3.1 stable, and had a broken package (FlashPlayer). I was pretty surprised by this. I googled the issue and found a workaround through backporting, but just weird how a deb pkg gave me issues, and these silly RPM's have been churning along for me so far :shrug:
 
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