Innovative MMO's

petteyg359 said:

That's why I still play Day of Defeat. Several years ago, I used to play UT99 for the same reason. The UT clan (UMX) is long gone, the website is just an ad-parking page now The first time I joined the server, they weren't even really playing a match, it was just a couple of people teaching some trans-locater flag grabbing techniques for various maps.

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Not meaning to derail the thread but that reminds me of BF1942 and plane swapping with the flag on large maps like El Alamein.

On topic: I think the market is too unilateral for an MMO to knock blizzard off its rocker. Blizzard has a near monopoly in the United States with the MMO market and I believe that you cannot throw money at a game to simply make it "better". SW:TOR is going to fail not just because they are backed by EA, but because they bit off more than they can chew. The American consumer does not have the time or inclination to wait for an MMO product to mature. WoW wasn't a fluid and well oiled machine that it appears to be today when it launched. I only foresee Blizzard killing WoW with their new MMO or Diablo 3. Its a pitty because i want to see a diverse market not a one size fits all attitude.

Guild Wars 2 should be VERY interesting. Keeping it on my radar.

Xterra said:

Not meaning to derail the thread but that reminds me of BF1942 and plane swapping with the flag on large maps like El Alamein.

On topic: I think the market is too unilateral for an MMO to knock blizzard off its rocker. Blizzard has a near monopoly in the United States with the MMO market and I believe that you cannot throw money at a game to simply make it "better". SW:TOR is going to fail not just because they are backed by EA, but because they bit off more than they can chew. The American consumer does not have the time or inclination to wait for an MMO product to mature. WoW wasn't a fluid and well oiled machine that it appears to be today when it launched. I only foresee Blizzard killing WoW with their new MMO or Diablo 3. Its a pitty because i want to see a diverse market not a one size fits all attitude.

Guild Wars 2 should be VERY interesting. Keeping it on my radar.

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I agree with ya man. We have had this conversation several times before. My biggest ***** is this, now everyone is a hero. That very idea is crap and is a reflection of our society as a whole. Guess what, there are winners and losers in life and video games. I like the fact once upon a time I had nubs ask me were this or that came from. I was always happy to help and grow the community. I enjoyed a challenge. Just like I enjoy being an athelete, aggressivly pursueing greater responsibility at work and in video games reaching for that new challenege with others.

MMO's cost a lot to develope and maintane. They can bankrupt companies. If they reach for the stars they will fail. Honestly, a developer would be better suited to have a realistic goal of say a million stable subs after thirty days of launch. It is resonable given the popularity of the genre. After six months of stable sub I can gaurantee that the games population would grow, may be double.

Once the company has this they can begin to streamline the game and refine it for the future. Unfortianatly that is not what companys do. They hype it, cash grab with pre-sales and then fail to deliver. Once this happens they blame the market, the players and WoW/Blizz. The market is absolutly ripe for plundering. WoW simply caters to many aspects of the market. If companys began to focus on a specific portion of it they may actually be sucessful. Until then I am sorry but the MMO market will be very loanly.

A game I wanted to point out for being different: APB

It's already shutting down and bare survived 4 months, but APB was totally different than most games. Realtime live-action gunfights, cars, gang wars, cops vs. robbers. That doesn't even interest me slightyl, but I still bought a copy just to try it, and some of it was really fun.
(the only reason I stopped playing was because my wife got tired of hearing, "Say hello to my little friend!" *explosion sound effects*)

Peeved Kitten said:

A game I wanted to point out for being different: APB

It's already shutting down and bare survived 4 months, but APB was totally different than most games. Realtime live-action gunfights, cars, gang wars, cops vs. robbers. That doesn't even interest me slightyl, but I still bought a copy just to try it, and some of it was really fun.
(the only reason I stopped playing was because my wife got tired of hearing, "Say hello to my little friend!" *explosion sound effects*)

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Totally Agree
I played it about a month (my 50 free hours lol) but it got really repetative, but it had tons of potential.

BTW Crime Craft is another mmo that is like APB, I have not tried it though. Maybe its ok not sure.

I saw a game advertisment in PC Gamer touting as the new Planetside. I am interested, thing is it is a FTP with an item mall and such. Those games are starting to pick up steam as the format irons out and may very well be the only way indie dev's can make an MMO with some form of instant return.

mstersmith said:

I saw a game advertisment in PC Gamer touting as the new Planetside. I am interested, thing is it is a FTP with an item mall and such. Those games are starting to pick up steam as the format irons out and may very well be the only way indie dev's can make an MMO with some form of instant return.

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My issue with that is that it turns into a power-fest, people spend exuberant amounts of money on the game and then they are godly. Our priorities here are different than overseas a lot of times. Someone from Korea may have no issue spending 10k on a game, because it's a different mind set there.

I would be interested in a game where you need some sort of actual skill to play instead of items/gear. There's just not really a good happy medium between grinding and skill play.

I saw the title of this thread, and laughed. I've been looking for a long time, and I'll probably end up settling by playing Cataclysm or picking up SWTOR. APB was probably the closest thing to innovative and for some reason it crashed and burned. For ever person who wants something that's not a WoW clones, there are 1000 who want a WoW clone. We're just in the minority :/

kayson said:

I saw the title of this thread, and laughed. I've been looking for a long time, and I'll probably end up settling by playing Cataclysm or picking up SWTOR. APB was probably the closest thing to innovative and for some reason it crashed and burned. For ever person who wants something that's not a WoW clones, there are 1000 who want a WoW clone. We're just in the minority :/

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Yeah, if this keeps up I might have to start writing my own *gasp*

I'm with the "want a WoW clone" group. I never get tired of WoW, only reason I've quit is because of real life responsibilities .. but, it's depressing progressing into a game that is so old, I don't know why. I wish they would do a massive overhaul graphic wise, kind of life LOTRO did. I'd be content. WoW 2 ;d

I want something new and different from WoW but developers define success as pulling 1.5 million subs away from WoW. With logic like that, it is no surprise that WoW is still kick in faces. APB had a great idea and decent execution but guess what? You need to run your company efficiently and effectively, not run it into the ground...

Metallica said:

I'm with the "want a WoW clone" group. I never get tired of WoW, only reason I've quit is because of real life responsibilities .. but, it's depressing progressing into a game that is so old, I don't know why. I wish they would do a massive overhaul graphic wise, kind of life LOTRO did. I'd be content. WoW 2 ;d

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How long have you played mmo's though? at some point you will experience a burn out, most everyone does. I had multiple level 80's between 3 or 4 accounts and 10+ characters all 65-75.

I think the reason it works for so many, is that even though you do the repetitive motions, it changes every 7-11 months with a new exp. pack. My problem isn't being tired of Wow, it's being tired of the same basic game mechanics, Cata was supposed to update a lot, I admit I will come back for a month or two and see if it's still the same old spiel.

The evolution I'm talking about can actively be seen right now in many games fields.

Guitar hero started out as a plastic guitar game, now they are about to release a game with an actual six-string guitar. Same idea but to the next level.

FPS's are beginning to get a remake, with all of the new motion controls it won't be long (and has already happened to a lesser degree) until you are running in place in your living room, crouching down for your position and actually aiming and targeting at people via a gun proxy.

I don't have an issue with someone making a WoW clone if the controls were more next-level. The target and spam hotkeys is just getting old.

(For reference I have a lvl 80 Holy Paly, 80 Hunter, 80 DK and an 80 warrior - so I'm not flaming WoW)

Peeved Kitten said:

FPS's are beginning to get a remake, with all of the new motion controls it won't be long (and has already happened to a lesser degree) until you are running in place in your living room, crouching down for your position and actually aiming and targeting at people via a gun proxy.

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For some this may be an issue, I can handle the holding a gun and pointing it at the screen but as for crouching and other movement over and over again I would have a disadvantage because I have a bum leg (hit by a car long story). I love where the industry is going though
Can't wait for the Holodeck to become reality.

Peeved Kitten said:

How long have you played mmo's though? at some point you will experience a burn out, most everyone does. I had multiple level 80's between 3 or 4 accounts and 10+ characters all 65-75.

I think the reason it works for so many, is that even though you do the repetitive motions, it changes every 7-11 months with a new exp. pack. My problem isn't being tired of Wow, it's being tired of the same basic game mechanics, Cata was supposed to update a lot, I admit I will come back for a month or two and see if it's still the same old spiel.

The evolution I'm talking about can actively be seen right now in many games fields.

Guitar hero started out as a plastic guitar game, now they are about to release a game with an actual six-string guitar. Same idea but to the next level.

FPS's are beginning to get a remake, with all of the new motion controls it won't be long (and has already happened to a lesser degree) until you are running in place in your living room, crouching down for your position and actually aiming and targeting at people via a gun proxy.

I don't have an issue with someone making a WoW clone if the controls were more next-level. The target and spam hotkeys is just getting old.

(For reference I have a lvl 80 Holy Paly, 80 Hunter, 80 DK and an 80 warrior - so I'm not flaming WoW)

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Half of the point of a video game, though, is that you don't actually have to run or crouch. It's for lazy people. People who want a real-life fps have airsoft and paintball.


On another note, I had an 80 lock and 70-something druid and I stopped playing because the endgame content was just terribly boring in WotLK. But despite the grind, I'd still go back. One of the reasons I liked it is that there's no "losing" (outside of pvp which I never cared for). You're always going after a goal and achieving it. And it's pretty good about quick gratification. I'll get Cata when it comes out, probably start playing it for a few weeks, but I know that it'll eventually get old and boring and I'll get sick of the grind.

kayson said:

Half of the point of a video game, though, is that you don't actually have to run or crouch. It's for lazy people. People who want a real-life fps have airsoft and paintball.


On another note, I had an 80 lock and 70-something druid and I stopped playing because the endgame content was just terribly boring in WotLK. But despite the grind, I'd still go back. One of the reasons I liked it is that there's no "losing" (outside of pvp which I never cared for). You're always going after a goal and achieving it. And it's pretty good about quick gratification. I'll get Cata when it comes out, probably start playing it for a few weeks, but I know that it'll eventually get old and boring and I'll get sick of the grind.

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If I could go play paintball 24/7 with millions of people all over the world for 15$ a month I would. Games are not just for lazy people, they have actually become quite beneficial in helping lose weight and gain mobility. When you play war games you are playing a simulation. The new CoD:BO that just came out is based off of consulting with combat vets. That has left the realm of "game" and moved into the realm of simulation. The same can be said for games like Gran Turismo, they do not consider it a game so much as a driving simulation.

I'm not after a simulation MMO, or even a motion controlled MMO. Just the next generation of controls and/or game play.

Peeved Kitten said:

with all of the new motion controls it won't be long (and has already happened to a lesser degree) until you are running in place in your living room, crouching down for your position and actually aiming and targeting at people via a gun proxy.

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kayson said:

Half of the point of a video game, though, is that you don't actually have to run or crouch. It's for lazy people. People who want a real-life fps have airsoft and paintball.

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Not everybody has access to the type of area required for "real-life FPS". In the middle of a huge metroplex like Dallas, there's so much light pollution and construction you'd have trouble finding an open field large enough and dark enough to play on, or with sufficient foliage to provide cover in daylight. Indoor fields designed for that are either too small for a decent game or cost-prohibitive for casual players.

A large portion of "civilized" nations' populations are obese because so many things (including gaming) are "for lazy people". Force them to be active when gaming, and the world might be a slightly prettier place (reduce the fat by at least some of the gaming population). Do you really enjoy seeing dozens of 400lb butts while you work during the day, and hearing the operators of those butts complaining that somebody should go get the car so they don't have to walk 100 feet down the sidewalk? If gaming systems all came with motion sensors for controlling, and only offered joystick/D-pad controllers as a just-a-bit-more-than-trivially-priced add-on pack...

kayson said:

Half of the point of a video game, though, is that you don't actually have to run or crouch. It's for lazy people. People who want a real-life fps have airsoft and paintball.

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And there are these other things called sports that will fill up the "jock" genre as well

Peeved Kitten said:

How long have you played mmo's though? at some point you will experience a burn out, most everyone does. I had multiple level 80's between 3 or 4 accounts and 10+ characters all 65-75.

I think the reason it works for so many, is that even though you do the repetitive motions, it changes every 7-11 months with a new exp. pack. My problem isn't being tired of Wow, it's being tired of the same basic game mechanics, Cata was supposed to update a lot, I admit I will come back for a month or two and see if it's still the same old spiel.

The evolution I'm talking about can actively be seen right now in many games fields.

Guitar hero started out as a plastic guitar game, now they are about to release a game with an actual six-string guitar. Same idea but to the next level.

FPS's are beginning to get a remake, with all of the new motion controls it won't be long (and has already happened to a lesser degree) until you are running in place in your living room, crouching down for your position and actually aiming and targeting at people via a gun proxy.

I don't have an issue with someone making a WoW clone if the controls were more next-level. The target and spam hotkeys is just getting old.

(For reference I have a lvl 80 Holy Paly, 80 Hunter, 80 DK and an 80 warrior - so I'm not flaming WoW)

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I've played MMO's for about 6 years. I started playing in vanilla WoW, then quit and played lineage2 for about 2 years. The economy was screwed after a few years and quit, then picked up WoW again. I have 2 80's and all classes between 60 - 75. I couldn't find a better class than my hunter, and I've stuck with him since I played vanilla.

Overall, I have about 350 days played throughout all of my chars on WoW.

I guess I just settle for less. Don't get me wrong, if someone can make a new MMO that can hold my attention like WoW/Lineage2 did, I'd play it. But I'm also content playing WoW for a few more years.

RADIO_ACTIVE said:

And there are these other things called sports that will fill up the "jock" genre as well

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Who cares about them, isn't this a geek/nerd forum?

In all honesty though, things like kinnect are really beginning to make this stuff seem real. If you just ran in place and it visually recognized that, that would work. I like the idea of pairing a Wii style MoCo system with a visually recognizing kinnect style system.

As much as it hurts to say some games may be biased and unplayable by people with certain handicaps. I would truly hope that developers would realize this and come up with alternatives as well. I would really like to see learned or programmed gestures.

IE: your normal reload command is to hold out your left arm. You goto options>controls> redefine action. The device tells you to please attempt your new reload action. Say you stomp, it could ask you to repeat it until it learned the motion. This way if you were in a wheelchair instead of "running" to move you could say, head bang to run forward.

I don't think MoCo has to be limiting, I think that if you approach the idea of controls from different directions you may be able to get some great things. A lot of research into how to game with MoCo for handicapped people could benefit everybody a very large amount.

Whats funny is this is not new tech by any means look at the Arcades of the 80s and 90s or even Duck Hunt on the Nintendo (its a different approach but not new). There was all sorts of motion tech and Guns controllers. I remember playing Motorcycle games where you lean, Skating games that had the board (as well as skiing and snowboarding), Time Crisis with the gun and duck foot pedal... you get the point

petteyg359 said:

Nobody has yet found the balance between WoW (grind-grind-grind) and Second Life (wtf-am-I-supposed-to-be-doing-there's-no-goal!?).

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I think Anarchy Online is somewhere in between the two. I've been playing MMOs for 10 or so years, coming from a background of playing Everquest, EQ2, SWG, Age of Conan, Anarchy Online, and WoW, and the only game I'd bother with now is AO (and Guild Wars 2 but that isn't going to be out for awhile). Yes theres definitely a lot of grinding, but it's not all mindless, and not anyone/everyone can do it. The UI, graphics, and some game mechanics could be better, but the game is still awesome. You can try download it and play for free at anarchyonline.com, but I would recommend upgrading to a full subscription (15$ a month) if you are serious about playing.