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Innovative MMO's

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Motion control is a gimmick to make money. It is NOT the future of gaming at all. Can you imagine playing an MMO with motion control? Yeah fun stuff... motion control will not catch on to the mainstream. The future of gaming will be like in sci fi like The Matrix, with virtual reality. Motion control is just some junk people are experimenting with. Transfering real life motion to video game motion, no matter how good the technology it, will just have too much work and lag. When they figure out how to control computers/games with the mind, that is when games will change.

Anyway back on the MMO subject, I have also played a lot of MMO beginning with the first Everquest, way back near when it came out. I have played a lot. Unfortunately at this junction, the MMO will not be "innovative" for a long time.

First of all, no MMO has even come CLOSE to World of Warcraft. WoW has taken so much of the market that other MMO are having a hard time competing. WoW might be a monopoly at this point. :p Before WoW we had lots of MMO such as Everquest, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies. When WoW came, basically it killed most other MMO. A lot of other MMO that come out either outright fail or just don't do very well, going to freeware.

Since WoW does so well, everyone basically goes with the formula. The thing is, that if all these new MMO come out with the same formula, then why play them? They are usually just WoW with slightly different flavor but done FAR worse. Like Warhammer online. It had a PVP twist but was a horrible game.

Then there are other people who want MMO to be more like action adventure games, especially Star Wars. There are many problems to this. First of all, the technology isn't there for the masses. Not only do these games need great hardware ( imagine, say, 100vs100 jedi in real time action ) but you also need a great internet connection. Although most of us in these forums do not suffer from this, the greater population would not be able to play a MMO Action/Adventure game with large scale real time combat. Thusly, a large target audience would be cut off. Classic MMO combat is very hardware/internet friendly. There is no "twitch" gameplay.

Second is the fact that without a "grind" it is harder to justify a $15 a month subscription fee. Part of the reason why MMO can get away with it is because basically the whole format is one giant time sink. They add in levels that go by slowly, then after you level you do raid dungeons that take 3-4 hours. Sometimes you are expected to do 3+ dungeon raids a week. Then you add in all the random loot, and all it does is make your numbers go up, which are basically inflated with each new dungeon release. With a more "innovative" MMO, such as real time combat, this would be harder to implement.

Of course there are innovative MMO that come out, but they are far and few in between. UO was innovative for it's time and IMO is more "innovative" than other MMO out there, despite the fact it was one of the first three or so. The problem is that it won't really hook players like WoW will and nobody at this age would pay $15 a month to play a game such as UO, which doesn't have giant dragon raids and phat lewtz, etc.

One of the best examples of innovation is EvE online, but honestly that game is a genre in itself practically. I think the only reason why the game is still afloat is because it has some real DIEHARD fans that keep it alive. It is not for the masses at all. It is a real "gimmicky" game IMO. People like it because it is super hardcore. It is like a business simulator MMORPG at this point. Very weird game.

Enjoy my long rant.
 
I tried UO once. Not a bad game, but the graphics kill it. I don't mind the layout, but FFS, give me a rotating camera and zoom, and implement some higher resolution textures.
 
Motion control is a gimmick to make money. It is NOT the future of gaming at all. Can you imagine playing an MMO with motion control? Yeah fun stuff... motion control will not catch on to the mainstream. The future of gaming will be like in sci fi like The Matrix, with virtual reality. Motion control is just some junk people are experimenting with. Transfering real life motion to video game motion, no matter how good the technology it, will just have too much work and lag. When they figure out how to control computers/games with the mind, that is when games will change.

Anyway back on the MMO subject, I have also played a lot of MMO beginning with the first Everquest, way back near when it came out. I have played a lot. Unfortunately at this junction, the MMO will not be "innovative" for a long time.

First of all, no MMO has even come CLOSE to World of Warcraft. WoW has taken so much of the market that other MMO are having a hard time competing. WoW might be a monopoly at this point. :p Before WoW we had lots of MMO such as Everquest, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies. When WoW came, basically it killed most other MMO. A lot of other MMO that come out either outright fail or just don't do very well, going to freeware.

Since WoW does so well, everyone basically goes with the formula. The thing is, that if all these new MMO come out with the same formula, then why play them? They are usually just WoW with slightly different flavor but done FAR worse. Like Warhammer online. It had a PVP twist but was a horrible game.

Then there are other people who want MMO to be more like action adventure games, especially Star Wars. There are many problems to this. First of all, the technology isn't there for the masses. Not only do these games need great hardware ( imagine, say, 100vs100 jedi in real time action ) but you also need a great internet connection. Although most of us in these forums do not suffer from this, the greater population would not be able to play a MMO Action/Adventure game with large scale real time combat. Thusly, a large target audience would be cut off. Classic MMO combat is very hardware/internet friendly. There is no "twitch" gameplay.

Second is the fact that without a "grind" it is harder to justify a $15 a month subscription fee. Part of the reason why MMO can get away with it is because basically the whole format is one giant time sink. They add in levels that go by slowly, then after you level you do raid dungeons that take 3-4 hours. Sometimes you are expected to do 3+ dungeon raids a week. Then you add in all the random loot, and all it does is make your numbers go up, which are basically inflated with each new dungeon release. With a more "innovative" MMO, such as real time combat, this would be harder to implement.

Of course there are innovative MMO that come out, but they are far and few in between. UO was innovative for it's time and IMO is more "innovative" than other MMO out there, despite the fact it was one of the first three or so. The problem is that it won't really hook players like WoW will and nobody at this age would pay $15 a month to play a game such as UO, which doesn't have giant dragon raids and phat lewtz, etc.

One of the best examples of innovation is EvE online, but honestly that game is a genre in itself practically. I think the only reason why the game is still afloat is because it has some real DIEHARD fans that keep it alive. It is not for the masses at all. It is a real "gimmicky" game IMO. People like it because it is super hardcore. It is like a business simulator MMORPG at this point. Very weird game.

Enjoy my long rant.


I have to disagree on some of those points. As strong as WoW has gotten it has a lot of competition overseas. Games that we don't pay much attention to here get massive play in asia. I don't speak korean of anything, but I have played games that I thought were bubblegum pop junk; Only to find out it has over a million players.

I don't think we'll be seeing true VR anytime soon, and if we do I think it will have MoCo one way or another. As for MoCo being a gimmick/joke think about this. The wii came out june/november of '06 it is one of the most popular consoles if not the most popular. MS and Sony both laughed at Nintendo and said "gimmick". Now MS and Sony have done millions in R&D to come out with there own MoCo equipment. What started as a gimmick is now mainstream, people are going to be expecting more moco, and it's happening.

As far as some of the specific innovations; Real time combat, has been done. APB did it in a very good way. UO is of course 100% real time. I would love to see a game that includes housing/crafting with either a fps targeting interface or a hot-keyed directional set of attacks. IE you can turn left and right walk back and forward but cannot target, instead you cast your spells/abilities in the 3 spaces in front of you.

I'm in the crew that thinks WoW is to easy. I'm after something that is hard to master and actually takes REAL skill to play.
 
Motion Controls for the most part will only succeed in the casual market. But that's what most players are.

There might be a select few games where hardcores could find it better to use motion controls, but it would need to be simple and accurate. Most games that attempt to be 'competitive' and include motion controls can face some pretty big issues with mods/cheating. It's already being done on consoles to bypass controllers in FPS games (mouse + keyboard mods for xbox360 and ps3) and gain a huge advantage vs players who use controllers.

Then imagine a complex set of motion capture hardware, being released to support the 'next big FPS game'... and where you can physically run, crouch, throw (for grenades), etc. to do those actions in-game. Without even putting mods into this, how would they play vs people using controllers? They'd have to restrict the controls for that game only to be playable by the specific motion capture hardware, so you have to buy both the game and the hardware itself then spend time learning it and getting good with a completely different style of input.

Now, also include mods into this.. people will find a way to remap those controls to a controller, or mouse+keyboard. Even if just one person does this, it can quickly ruin the game for many. Suddenly, there's this player going online who can aim and do everything much faster than anyone else. After a few days, he's gone through several different servers and probably affected around 100 or more players. You spent all that time learning an entirely different set of inputs, while some other person spent their time learning how to remap it to a mouse + keyboard... they just skipped the learning process of the game's motion controls and play much better on top of that because they rewired it to a much simpler and quicker set of controls.

After a month?... The game company might be having problems with too much media exposure over this and/or losing too many players because of it. The impact of the advantage of mouse + keyboard vs full motion controls will be much greater than vs controllers, since MoCo requires much more physical movement to get the same effect in-game. It only takes a few players doing this to severely affect a large number of players (which can not be banned easily like aimbots are today, since this is not software, but a hardware mod), and in a competitive online game this is completely unacceptable. So I don't see how games like this could become anything more than casual... until full VR becomes standard.
 
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Pretty much. I can't imagine trying to play any "serious" game with motion control. I have a Wii too, everyone does. It pretty much gets no play. Do Wii games sell as well as Call of Duty? I think the Wii sold a lot of hardware, but the charm is quickly wearing off and theres no real third party support. Only so many Mario games they can make. I do not see motion control being the future. As described above, motion controls vs controller or kb/m, you are gimping yourself with the motion controls. Wii sold well because it is Nintento and a gimmick and the system is cheap.
 
I think motion control and 3d is just a sales gimmick like it was in the 50's with 3d. What will truly change the mmo genre is reinventing the wheel so to speak, evolving from the 3 archetypes of Tank/Heal/DPS.
 
Pretty much. I can't imagine trying to play any "serious" game with motion control. I have a Wii too, everyone does. It pretty much gets no play. Do Wii games sell as well as Call of Duty? I think the Wii sold a lot of hardware, but the charm is quickly wearing off and theres no real third party support. Only so many Mario games they can make. I do not see motion control being the future. As described above, motion controls vs controller or kb/m, you are gimping yourself with the motion controls. Wii sold well because it is Nintento and a gimmick and the system is cheap.
If you measure "success" by sales the Wii continues to lead the console market by a huge margin:

Worldwide sales figures from here
1.Wii – 75.90 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)
2.Xbox 360 – 44.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)
3.PlayStation 3 – 41.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)

Top 10 CONSOLE games sold don't even include Xbox or PS3 - from here:
1.Wii Play (Wii – 27.38 million, Wii remote bundled with all copies)[68]
2.New Super Mario Bros. (DS – 24.13 million)[68]
3.Mario Kart Wii (Wii – 24.01 million)[67]
4.Nintendogs (DS – 23.26 million, all five versions combined)[68]
5.Wii Fit (Wii – 22.61 million)[68]
6.Wii Sports Resort (Wii – 20.94 million)[67]
7.Pokémon Red and Blue (Game Boy – 20.68 million approximately: 10.23 million in Japan,[47] 9.85 million in US)[19]
8.Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (DS – 18.72 million)[68]
9.Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES – 18 million)[100]
10.Mario Kart DS (DS – 17.90 million)[68]


Motion control is the way of the future. Development goes where the money is. That's why both Microsoft and Sony have developed versions. I'm not saying I am 100% in favor of it, but it is inevitable IMHO and the opinion of the game companies.
 
Pretty much. I can't imagine trying to play any "serious" game with motion control. I have a Wii too, everyone does. It pretty much gets no play. Do Wii games sell as well as Call of Duty? I think the Wii sold a lot of hardware, but the charm is quickly wearing off and theres no real third party support. Only so many Mario games they can make. I do not see motion control being the future. As described above, motion controls vs controller or kb/m, you are gimping yourself with the motion controls. Wii sold well because it is Nintento and a gimmick and the system is cheap.

If everything is a gimmick, then your keyboard and mouse are also gimmicks.
 
If everything is a gimmick, then your keyboard and mouse are also gimmicks.
I hear you there! I remember when computers used punch cards for input. New fangled keyboard and mice! :p

I think that MMO's are going to be what keeps PC gaming going because they so far haven't been translated to the console very well at all. Free to play is also doing well for PC's or so I've been told by a few small developers.
 
Look at new games (console or PC) they are all adopting things that MMOs have been doing. For Example -Black Ops You level up to get gear/weapons you have an avatar that you can customize (face paint, graphics, emblems). Social gaming is what developers are creating the games for, most developers are spending more time on multiplayer content than single player content.
 
If you measure "success" by sales the Wii continues to lead the console market by a huge margin:

Worldwide sales figures from here
1.Wii – 75.90 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)
2.Xbox 360 – 44.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)
3.PlayStation 3 – 41.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)

Top 10 CONSOLE games sold don't even include Xbox or PS3 - from here:
1.Wii Play (Wii – 27.38 million, Wii remote bundled with all copies)[68]
2.New Super Mario Bros. (DS – 24.13 million)[68]
3.Mario Kart Wii (Wii – 24.01 million)[67]
4.Nintendogs (DS – 23.26 million, all five versions combined)[68]
5.Wii Fit (Wii – 22.61 million)[68]
6.Wii Sports Resort (Wii – 20.94 million)[67]
7.Pokémon Red and Blue (Game Boy – 20.68 million approximately: 10.23 million in Japan,[47] 9.85 million in US)[19]
8.Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (DS – 18.72 million)[68]
9.Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES – 18 million)[100]
10.Mario Kart DS (DS – 17.90 million)[68]


Motion control is the way of the future. Development goes where the money is. That's why both Microsoft and Sony have developed versions. I'm not saying I am 100% in favor of it, but it is inevitable IMHO and the opinion of the game companies.

I think we already know that, and we don't really care about sales. :|

We're mostly discussing what veteran gamers who have overplayed every game genre would want to see improve. Casuals will exist as long as new people are born, so there's no shortage of them right now.
 
I think we already know that, and we don't really care about sales. :|

We're mostly discussing what veteran gamers who have overplayed every game genre would want to see improve. Casuals will exist as long as new people are born, so there's no shortage of them right now.
I agree. I was just pointing out what we're facing. As compainies shift to money only motivation and big money at that, it will be fewer and farther between that we see the kind of "great" games of the past. I guess I was kind of stating the obvious. ;)

I still say that there is a place for smaller companies to bring us great games. We just need to keep on the lookout and then support them as much as possible. That's why I buy stuff from the online store for my MMO of choice Fallen Earth. I want to support the game so I support the company. I feel the same way about Valve. They've done a pretty good job keeping the quality up on their PC games.

Mainstream casual may be the big one but there is still plenty of money to be made catering to us veteran gamers. Kind of like movie big blockbusters versus cult hits. We still get plenty of great movies that are really only cult hits that don't do to well at the box office.
 
It takes people who think beyond the normal constraints of this society (example "We only want money from this game, because it's all about money!" = Wrong.) to create games that break the norm.

Many of the 'revolutionary' games usually come from some small studio that nobody's ever heard of. Nowadays this still somewhat happens, and is actually in a way 'growing'; look at all the indie games... but the market, publicity and audience for those is small since the time of full-priced, highly advertised games breaking the norm has passed for the most part. Because now almost all large studios who create those 'big games' are focusing on money, which in turn means focusing on already-existing gimmicks and scripted gameplay which has little risk of losing profits in the mainstream.

The problem with those small indie developers is they don't have nearly the funding and team size of the big companies, so they can't support their games in the long-term too well. Right now I'm looking forward to Black Prophecy and hoping it gets a good amount of support so it can expand, because this game genre has been long-dead for some stupid reason and this game has a chance to revive it. Pf I feel dumb for being optimistic, cause none of these games ever get proper support. In reality I think it'll quickly join the rest of the dead and forgotten games because the devs won't update it regularly enough, but let's wait and see.
 
wow is definately getting run into the ground, the Halloween event was bugged the entire time, dc on mouseover, that sucked big time. The bugs just keep getting worse, a lot of dc's on character switch's now, and long long loading screens. I fear they are ruining it by getting rid of the old game for the cataclysmic event. It even looks like maybe they are just using the old world and redoing the aesthetics and quests to save on programming. I liked the vanilla areas, wish they would have left them alone and made a new wow 2 game rather than destroying what I had fun with. We will see, still best mmo, even though the programming is getting real sloppy and cust service is getting worse and worse (3 days to answer a ticket, come on blizzard). Also charging people 25 dollars to make one of there 80's a worgen or goblin upon launch of expansion is downright greedy!
 
If you measure "success" by sales the Wii continues to lead the console market by a huge margin:

Worldwide sales figures from here
1.Wii – 75.90 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)
2.Xbox 360 – 44.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)
3.PlayStation 3 – 41.6 million as of 30 September 2010 (2010 -09-30)

Top 10 CONSOLE games sold don't even include Xbox or PS3 - from here:
1.Wii Play (Wii – 27.38 million, Wii remote bundled with all copies)[68]
2.New Super Mario Bros. (DS – 24.13 million)[68]
3.Mario Kart Wii (Wii – 24.01 million)[67]
4.Nintendogs (DS – 23.26 million, all five versions combined)[68]
5.Wii Fit (Wii – 22.61 million)[68]
6.Wii Sports Resort (Wii – 20.94 million)[67]
7.Pokémon Red and Blue (Game Boy – 20.68 million approximately: 10.23 million in Japan,[47] 9.85 million in US)[19]
8.Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (DS – 18.72 million)[68]
9.Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES – 18 million)[100]
10.Mario Kart DS (DS – 17.90 million)[68]


Motion control is the way of the future. Development goes where the money is. That's why both Microsoft and Sony have developed versions. I'm not saying I am 100% in favor of it, but it is inevitable IMHO and the opinion of the game companies.

List doesn't include any cross platform game, which is going to exclude a ton of PC, PS3 and Xbox 360 titles including the COD franchise. Point made though, Nintendo sells a lot of software, at least worldwide. Here is another list. It is good to note that not only is the list from January ( when MW2 first came out ) but also that Wii Play sold quite a bit because of the controller as well as Wii Fit. Both of these were basically peripherals with cheap bundled software. Also doesn't include PC sales, otherwise I am sure COD games would be even higher.

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/npds-top-10-best-selling-games-of-all-time/
 
List doesn't include any cross platform game, which is going to exclude a ton of PC, PS3 and Xbox 360 titles including the COD franchise. Point made though, Nintendo sells a lot of software, at least worldwide. Here is another list. It is good to note that not only is the list from January ( when MW2 first came out ) but also that Wii Play sold quite a bit because of the controller as well as Wii Fit. Both of these were basically peripherals with cheap bundled software. Also doesn't include PC sales, otherwise I am sure COD games would be even higher.

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/npds-top-10-best-selling-games-of-all-time/
I agree higher is good. To me it means non-wii games still have a big market. Which is good for console gaming but I'm not sure if it translates as well to PC games. :( I have seen so many console ports to PC lately it makes me mad. :mad: I want a PC game from the gound up. That's where the MMO's come in. With micro transactions and all. There are still more PC's than consoles so I hold out hope that a the MMO influence will keep money in the PC side.

Like RADIO_ACTIVE said the customization of MMO's is being incorporated into PC games. THat means money can be made on the PC just maybe in a different way than in the "old days". To be honest I am wondering how the battlefield4free idea will pan out. Not an MMO per se but a free to play with add on's available via micro transactions.

I'd like to see a battlefield MMO type game. That would be interesting. Basicaly a hybrid.
 
I agree higher is good. To me it means non-wii games still have a big market. Which is good for console gaming but I'm not sure if it translates as well to PC games. :( I have seen so many console ports to PC lately it makes me mad. :mad: I want a PC game from the gound up. That's where the MMO's come in. With micro transactions and all. There are still more PC's than consoles so I hold out hope that a the MMO influence will keep money in the PC side.

Like RADIO_ACTIVE said the customization of MMO's is being incorporated into PC games. THat means money can be made on the PC just maybe in a different way than in the "old days". To be honest I am wondering how the battlefield4free idea will pan out. Not an MMO per se but a free to play with add on's available via micro transactions.

I'd like to see a battlefield MMO type game. That would be interesting. Basicaly a hybrid.

It would probably turn out to be a lot like APB with different terms, and a little more weapon customization. Instead of Gangs you have armies and squads. Instead of a NY looking city, it would be a city like Kabul. Instead of a market district, it's a bazaar district.
 
To be honest I am wondering how the battlefield4free idea will pan out. Not an MMO per se but a free to play with add on's available via micro transactions.

I'd like to see a battlefield MMO type game. That would be interesting. Basicaly a hybrid.
I can't wait to see what they come up with :) Battlefield heros has alot of things I like about it, but I don't like that is is very slow :cry:

I wish they would create a Mercenaries style MMO, man that would be awesome.
 
I can't wait to see what they come up with :) Battlefield heros has alot of things I like about it, but I don't like that is is very slow :cry:

I wish they would create a Mercenaries style MMO, man that would be awesome.

I liked Age of Conan's "build your Guild an Empire" approach. Give me an environment that is a sand box where me and my friends can build an empire, i would be happy. I'm tired of linear lands to conquer and linear instances to give me a linear loot progression. Time for some NON linear games and concepts to slowly take over. I am tired of the "wow killers" trying to be swift and decisive. Just give me a good game that continues to get updated and have the devs listen to the players. I'd call that innovative simply because it doesn't happen anymore. Age of Conan was god awful in execution but had a lot of decent ideas, like the WoW killers before them.
 
I liked AoC up until level 20 then it felt empty and unfinished. But the first 20 levels were amazing IMO.

I still like the Merc idea, the setting could be in country under civil war or something (so theres your factions) and you can be a merc that is able to choose sides (or play each side to profit for yourself). The country would have battles constantly going on all over the place and you can get quests to help out either faction. For example collecting/delivering supplies/munitions to different fronts, eliminating a certain officer or squad, escorting civilians to safty, etc. I like where I am going with this :)
 
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