TEC questions from a very tired overclocker

Peeved Kitten · Dec 15, 2010

As the title says I'm kind of exhausted, but I've been meaning to post a thread asking about this.

I'm wondering if I would benefit from a TEC set up. Right now my system is running my 1090T @ 4.3 ghz 1.51 vcore. My idle temps are around 12-14c with my CPU in the single loop on a magicool 1080 (120.9). At load I almost never see 30c with all 6 cores running 100%, it usually sits at about 25-26c and spikes to about 30c max.

My questions:
Would insulating the board and adding a TEC be condusive to 24/7 use with this much cooling on that single loop?

Do you have to buy TEC's that are built with a water-block, or do they make TEC's that will sandwich between my existing block and proc.

Are there any more recent voltage calculators I can use, the one in the sticky doesn't list mine, I put in my info without choosing a cpu and it told me 193.5w, I'm not sure if that's correct and honestly, I'm not sure my math skills are up to par.

If I insulate my board, do I need to WC the chipset?

Am I correct in understanding a max delta would be 69c, so if my cooling system can keep me at 40c on the hot side I would be -29c on the cool side?

I read the sticky and I'm not sure I'm understanding it all, sorry for asking questions that have probably been asked a million times, but your help is greatly appreciated.

m0r7if3r · Dec 15, 2010

I don't think you'll really get much in the way of additional OC out of this, just FYI, if you're not bumping thermal limits now then cooler temps won't really help you a whole lot...if you're doing this for the novelty or for a new project, you're set, but I just figured it was worth mentioning :thup:

good luck

Peeved Kitten · Dec 15, 2010

m0r7if3r said:
I don't think you'll really get much in the way of additional OC out of this, just FYI, if you're not bumping thermal limits now then cooler temps won't really help you a whole lot...if you're doing this for the novelty or for a new project, you're set, but I just figured it was worth mentioning good luck

What would the next step be for higher clocks? Phase change?

I intend to drop a pretty penny next year on a massive project post Bulldozer launch. I'd like to set my current rig up at around 5 ghz 24/7 boincing, if that's even really possible. My experience with extreme OCing is very limited.

Bobnova · Dec 15, 2010

Here's the issue:

Going Cold, regardless of the method, brings things to a whole new level.
With a beefy enough pelt you should be able to see sub zero (c, not f) load temps, though you may have to add a second radiator to your loop.

That requires decent insulation for benching use, and very good insulation for 24/7. If you aren't running Rosetta or FAH or somesuch your idle temps are going to be well below freezing if you have ~0*c load temps. At that point some forms of insulation will start freezing themselves, then thawing at next load and dripping water around.

IMO, and please note that this is My Opinion, it's a far better idea to stick with ambient cooling for 24/7 use.
You just don't gain that much from subambient, and the risks go way up.
With a big pelt and good water loop for it you might hit 4.5 to 4.7ghz. So 200-400mhz more, at a cost of maybe ~$150 and with the constant risk of letting the magic smoke out of some or all of the parts.

With a good Single Stage phase change cooler 5ghz should be quite doable, but now you're looking at a good bit more noise and a $600-1000 unit.

If it's worth it to you I (and most here, I imagine) will be happy to help you with it, but I don't really recommend it.

Now if, on the other hand, you want to get it (&@#%* cold and bench the thing, that I think is a fantastic idea

m0r7if3r · Dec 15, 2010

Ok...bob, I'm no TEC expert, but isn't 120.9 enough for just about any tec? specially with a box fan on it.

Bobnova · Dec 15, 2010

wait 120.9!? I missed that! I thought it was a 120.3, lol. So much for my reading comprehension rating.

Yeah 120.9 type thing with good airflow would be plenty, you're talking maybe 170-250w for the cpu (hard to say, somewhere in that range though) so you'll need a 350-400w tec, i know there are ~400w 24v tecs around so that'd work fine. That leaves you with 520w to 650w of heat to get rid of, less then a mild oc with that cpu and two gtx480s (how's that for perspective? lol).
Downside of course is that you're essentially putting one of those electric oil heaters in your room on "low" (typically 600w) 24/7. Going to get warm in there.

Aphex_Tom_9 · Dec 15, 2010

m0r7if3r said:
Ok...bob, I'm no TEC expert, but isn't 120.9 enough for just about any tec? specially with a box fan on it.

I'm inclined to agree. Even a 400W+ TEC cooling say a 250W+ processor is going to dump 650W+, maybe a little more.
An average 120 rad can dissipate 150W with medium airflow, 9x150W is 1350W.
Even if the rad could only do 1000W, and the total heat dump was 800W, that's still enough, no?

Anyway, TEC use on CPU's is really rare these days, I'm not sure if you can buy waterblocks with the proper cold-plate attachments anymore...maybe secondhand or custom. You really need a ton of mounting pressure for TECs. For the trouble of going sub-zero, you're really better off with a phase unit

EDIT: lol, we said the same thing basically

Bobnova · Dec 16, 2010

The really annoying part is finding (or making) a high wattage 24v PSU to run the beefy tec.
There are a couple waterblocks with tecs in 'em, but they aren't especially large tecs nor are they especially good blocks. You'll be much better off buying just a tec, and combining that with a .25" copper plate (to spread the heat from cpu core onto the much larger tec element) and your current waterblock (you'll need longer mount screws) to make a super tec block water thing of freezing.

Aphex_Tom_9 · Dec 16, 2010

IIRC, you need a tremendous amount of clamping pressure between the coldplate and the waterblock (sandwiching the TEC), which you don't want to be applying just by tightening the whole thing to your motherboard.

Peeved Kitten · Dec 16, 2010

So can anyone point me to a primer on Phase change cooling and/or give me an idea of what it would cost to set up a phase changer?

m0r7if3r · Dec 16, 2010

You pretty much just have to buy a single stage phase change unit, insulate your board, and strap it on...XS has a bunch of good info on it, I think it's covered in the types of extreme cooling sticky here. I think the best ones these days are still sdumpers', though I think you could make your own

Peeved Kitten · Dec 16, 2010

Bobnova said:
Here's the issue:

Going Cold, regardless of the method, brings things to a whole new level.
With a beefy enough pelt you should be able to see sub zero (c, not f) load temps, though you may have to add a second radiator to your loop.

That requires decent insulation for benching use, and very good insulation for 24/7. If you aren't running Rosetta or FAH or somesuch your idle temps are going to be well below freezing if you have ~0*c load temps. At that point some forms of insulation will start freezing themselves, then thawing at next load and dripping water around.

IMO, and please note that this is My Opinion, it's a far better idea to stick with ambient cooling for 24/7 use.
You just don't gain that much from subambient, and the risks go way up.
With a big pelt and good water loop for it you might hit 4.5 to 4.7ghz. So 200-400mhz more, at a cost of maybe ~$150 and with the constant risk of letting the magic smoke out of some or all of the parts.

With a good Single Stage phase change cooler 5ghz should be quite doable, but now you're looking at a good bit more noise and a $600-1000 unit.

If it's worth it to you I (and most here, I imagine) will be happy to help you with it, but I don't really recommend it.

Now if, on the other hand, you want to get it (&@#%* cold and bench the thing, that I think is a fantastic idea

Hrm... I think before I get into it I need to do some more research, thanks for the info on the pelts. I really do want to take it to the next level, but I think I may order a new video card before then, Here's to hoping EVGA give us a decent watercooled 6990...

PS: I crashed hard last night slept about 16 hours, thanks everyone for answering my tired questions!

Aphex_Tom_9 · Dec 16, 2010

Phase change can be practical for everyday use, and the insulation can be pretty straightforward, you just have to get a good seal around the evaporator with neoprene pads and some gooey stuff like "art eraser" (the rubbery grey stuff for charcoal drawing, seriously).
I've been using a phase unit for almost 6 years on my main rig, just upgrading the hardware around it.
Every socket needs a new insulation and mounting setup though, and if your processor is rated for a high TDP, the unit may not be able to keep up. I can't use my unit for my upcoming i7 build for instance

because it was built for a maximum of 180W of heat, which I'm sure I will reach or exceed with a high-clocked Xeon/i7. You can easily get a unit made for 200W+ tho.
I've learned a lot from XS's phase section: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80
lots of builders in there with some amazing projects, and they're helpful people.

Peeved Kitten · Dec 17, 2010

Aphex_Tom_9 said:
Phase change can be practical for everyday use, and the insulation can be pretty straightforward, you just have to get a good seal around the evaporator with neoprene pads and some gooey stuff like "art eraser" (the rubbery grey stuff for charcoal drawing, seriously).
I've been using a phase unit for almost 6 years on my main rig, just upgrading the hardware around it.
Every socket needs a new insulation and mounting setup though, and if your processor is rated for a high TDP, the unit may not be able to keep up. I can't use my unit for my upcoming i7 build for instance because it was built for a maximum of 180W of heat, which I'm sure I will reach or exceed with a high-clocked Xeon/i7. You can easily get a unit made for 200W+ tho.
I've learned a lot from XS's phase section: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80
lots of builders in there with some amazing projects, and they're helpful people.

Thanks!

I spoke with a buddy of mine that does ac work/phase change system for a living. I think this weekend we're going to hang out and go over some of it. He was interested in building something like this a few years back but has very little computer knowledge.

I've been watching some of the build threads for the custom computer desk/cases. I'm going to start doing my homework and see if it would be feasible to build a phase change unit into it. I promise to post pics etc. as I continue, right now it's looking like a 5 piece 4-6 system dual eyefinity build. It's still in the early concept phases in sketchup, but my wife is fully onboard and wants her own LC rig built in.

I love having no kids and a geek wife.

TEC questions from a very tired overclocker

Peeved Kitten

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