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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattNo5ss View Post
    I asked because I have one and it's been lapped, and wanted opinions

    Plus, you can increase the pressure further by putting something inside where the knob screws down.
    sounds like someone volunteered to delid and test
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  2. #122
    Member Ivy's Avatar
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    Ivy Bridge ist from my view not truly impressive regarding gaming performance.

    Gulftown (990X) vs. SB-E (3960X) was between 0 and 25% ~ 12.5% average. (Its just in order to compare, not that anyone ever need them for gaming).
    SB vs. IB is between 0 and 15% ~ 7.5% average.

    So the improvements this time certainly much lower.

    I only mean CPU power, the integrated GPU indeed is much stronger but its of no use for high end user unless they use that CPU as a media center PC and plan not to use any dedicated GPU for. Thats indeed the strong spot of IB.

    Regarding Overclocking, because Intel is retourning with a technique most recently used on the C2D 4000 series, it can be a pain to OC. I dont know why Intel decided to do so, probably simply wanted to produce cheaper. But im sure Intel will bring out some better IB end of year, so the powerusers can buy a new IB and sell the old one with a lot of money loss. The one truly gaining lot of money is Intel because many fanatics will buy the almost same CPU 2 times in a row, thats how its done it seems. Probably even better to slowly increase turbo clock capabilitys aswell but not this year, so they can buy a third CPU of same architecture.

    The valid reason to get IB is to have higher heat capabilitys because of its lesser nm, and thats the stuff every user would expect. But why? Intel dont have to provide that kind of CPU to us right from the start, as long as there is only the slightest improvements, thats all they need. Yes, they say, its hotter than SB using a cool voice ? WHAT? Unbelievable... we have dynamic TDP control and shrinked nm and still hotter? Well... its magics.
    Last edited by Ivy; 04-28-12 at 11:27 PM.
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  3. #123
    Member diaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattNo5ss View Post
    I asked because I have one and it's been lapped, and wanted opinions

    Plus, you can increase the pressure further by putting something inside where the knob screws down.
    I am very anxiously awaiting a thread with lapped vs not-lapped... oh and possible delid?
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhsub1 View Post
    Yeah that must be due to mount pressure... and if you look at the bare die / paste / HSF picture you can see the cooler wasn't making proper contact - I wonder if the cooler is bowed?
    My old U12P is as flat as any heatsink I've ever seen, confirmed with a proper straight edge. If Noctua is anything like Thermalright, they won't have changed their base plate in the last couple of years...

    The Noctua coolers are actually super easy to mod for this, just put a shim exactly the thickness of the IHS directly next to the springs on the screws and you have exactly the same mounting pressure as before with the IHS. Much better than using the Venomous X's adjustable mounting pressure since there you can't be sure that you keep the pressure constant between IHS/No IHS (not that too much pressure would make much of a difference, never did in my tests with a TRUE and shims).

  5. #125
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    I'd love to see it tested with a nh-d14

  6. #126
    Member Ivy's Avatar
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    Intel also points out Ivy Bridge has a higher TjMAX specification, which governs when the CPU starts throttling in order to protect itself from heat damage. The cut-off for the Core i7-3770K is 105C, while the 2600K starts throttling at 100C.
    From my experience its very hard to reach TjMax and even by putting a incredible 130W CPU inside a SFF system (the size of a shoebox) and not even the specified TDP does matter, its up to the CPU itself, as a absolutly individual piece. Of course some bad tongues from my local computer shop told me that a 130W TDP CPU will always run into TjMax (the point where the CPU would auto throttle itself) inside a SFF and stuff like that, but its not true**. To be honest, you cant expect people to know the truth who dont even try, everything based on a prejudiced mind. But the main reason a system having very limited cooling can handle such dinosaur CPUs, is because that CPU does transfer its heat to the heat sink in a very powerful manner, thats the main reason it works. That does start at the size of the IHS, going over to the TIM and how it been solved, reaching the DIE, and DIE size can matter too (even material, a DIE made with silver is top notch but doesnt exist). From the DIE it will matter how good the heat is catched up by the sink, and then it will matter how good it will be transfered to the other end... every little detail can add up, and the sum up of those details can create lot of difference. So the 6 core Nehalem was a burner but from my experience it had a good thermal dissipation, maybe SB even better... i was unable to test.

    **The heat on the 990X under Intel Burn Test load for 15 min, using Real Temp 3.60 GT monitoring tool, ~25 ambient temp, never created results above 80, combined with a SFF, size of a shoebox.

    Finally, even during hardest conditions (small system, huge CPU): Staying below TjMax is not issue, its to stay stable and that matter is increased by keeping the stuff cool (obviously, my system i tested is NOT made for OC). But how is it done by a CPU very hard to cool down? Stuff like that was easy on huge 6 core CPUs of Nehalem type even. I do worry to put an IB into a SFF system because even a 6 core Nehalem (TjMax of 101) would not be more of a pain when those results are true. Thing is, its harder to transfer the heat from the cores to the end of the heat sink, thus even when a IB may have lesser TDP, its still same amount of heat hurting the cores.

    Besides, Indium is expensive (kinda same such as silver), so Intel will always have to pay more using it, thats certain. Its very soft and will be fluid at above 156 (so the CPU can not be destroyed when its done correctly). Although i dont think its good to fill entire gape with (still better than cheap thermal paste). Indium should be used in order to fill surface irregularities while the main material have to be elemental silver under perfect conditions. And the DIE should be united, in order to remove simply have to heat up the united silver DIE to 156 short time to remove from IHS. Certainly difficult, the indium need to be as thin as possible and totaly even and have to be attached while under vacuum (so no air bubbles). But surely the stuff i see on Intel CPUs from people who dismantled theyr CPUs, is making my eyes hurt (looks like childrens work). At least E types should have a special solution (which is absolutly affordable at a price of 1000$ and up). In general its no quality, despite its insance price of E types. Although many E types may have some better solution, guess thats why my 990X seems to perform better (on heat) than most other Nehalems. Intel could do much better but finally, it will cost them up to 100$ each unit (dependable on material) and why to pass on 100$ each unit if they could make millions charging those 100$ without delivering any real value?! No one gonna stop them, US is free country...
    Last edited by Ivy; 04-29-12 at 12:19 PM.
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  7. #127
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    So I still have my trusty Storm Rev.2 from the AMD64 days. I'm wondering how a 3770K would do delidded and WCed for 24/7...
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  8. #128
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    The stuff annoying me the most is the fact that companys are never fully transparent with what they do. The dont deliever all the details considering theyr stuff to the consumers. Most consumers may not wish to know, but for those who wish to know it... its legitime for them to be informed.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwbaxter View Post
    sounds like someone volunteered to delid and test
    Quote Originally Posted by diaz View Post
    I am very anxiously awaiting a thread with lapped vs not-lapped... oh and possible delid?
    Quote Originally Posted by satandole666 View Post
    So I still have my trusty Storm Rev.2 from the AMD64 days. I'm wondering how a 3770K would do delidded and WCed for 24/7...
    4th'd! Very kind of you Matt to volunteer to delid your new cpu!

  10. #130
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    Currently running prime95 on blend at stock 3770k voltage/speeds (looks like 1.112v under load @ 3.9ghz) with my venomous-x. Currently the maximum temperature is hitting about 57C (57/55/52/52 for all 4)
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  11. #131
    Member Ivy's Avatar
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    How does the Venomous X compare with the best Noctua? No baby coolers that.
    Well actually, have to be compared with Silver Arrow, which seems like Silver Arrow slightly beat it. But how is Venomous X in comparison? Most important vs. stock cooler.

    As far as i can tell: Not truly to impressive because some other people running 95 W TDP SB CPUs and using Venomous X, had about same results, and i mean, its a CPU with higher specified TDP and older architecture. Because the IB is so close in performance (about 7.5% average, i already told), its kinda a mess of a upgrade. The lowest upgrade i have ever seen (taking out the IGP, its no use for high end user, unless they use it for media center).

    Seems like Intels main concern was simply to promote theyr IGP and adding a lot of power considering that matter. Pretty much a foul for high end, but thats a market which isnt to be taken to seriously. The mainstream is the money.
    Last edited by Ivy; 04-29-12 at 12:51 PM.
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  12. #132
    Member diaz's Avatar
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    its not about cooling performance, its about comparison between lapped vs no lapped, possible delid vs lid. venomous has pressure adjust to compensate for lid being gone.
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  13. #133
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    Yes the pressure adjust is kinda noticed because i checked the Thermaltake site. But the issue is that a cooler of a certain size is almost incapable of, would touch other parts of the MB. So whats the point of it... when the cooler have to be downsized. Well, anyway, keep it up and may provide interesting infos about those different conditions.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokiealumnus View Post
    Just for reference, here is what a soldered die looks like de-lidded.

    Attachment 109059

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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwbaxter View Post
    sounds like someone volunteered to delid and test
    Quote Originally Posted by diaz View Post
    I am very anxiously awaiting a thread with lapped vs not-lapped... oh and possible delid?
    Quote Originally Posted by LZ_Xray View Post
    4th'd! Very kind of you Matt to volunteer to delid your new cpu!
    It's possible I'll test a delidded CPU. I have ~$210 in my "extra Ivy CPU" fund, so I still need about $110 or so before I can do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yes the pressure adjust is kinda noticed because i checked the Thermaltake site. But the issue is that a cooler of a certain size is almost incapable of, would touch other parts of the MB. So whats the point of it... when the cooler have to be downsized. Well, anyway, keep it up and may provide interesting infos about those different conditions.
    Overall max temps don't matter, it's the temp differences between the different setups: not lapped IHS, lapped IHS, no HIS, TIM change + lapped IHS, etc. So, whether the cooler is the best for the chip or not doesn't matter because we'll be looking at temp differences, not overall max temps.
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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert17 View Post
    Nice find!

    although we weren't the ones that pried open the CPU, always happy to see some extra publicity for the site
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert17 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Janus67 View Post
    Nice find!

    although we weren't the ones that pried open the CPU, always happy to see some extra publicity for the site
    Saw this a while back...

    http://fudzilla.com/home/item/26957-...blem-explained

    According to a post over at Overclockers.com, the first reason is only partly true as although the power density is indeed greater it can't explain a difference of up to 20C when overclocked Ivy Bridge and Sandy Bridge are compared. Although, there is also a minor possibility that second reason has something to do with it as Ivy Bridge certainly has a lower overclocking potential, but mostly due to heat, as some reviewers were even scared to push it beyond 4.5GHz.
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    Do you have any comments to this test? that place the heat sink directly on the die and find that temperatures are similar. The weakness in their argument is that they equate their die -> paste -> cooler assembly with a die -> solder -> IHS -> paste -> cooler assembly. They don't test Ivy Bridge with a soldered IHS.
    Last edited by zkAry; 04-30-12 at 08:23 PM.

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    you can't test Ivy Bridge with a soldered IHS as IB isn't (as far as we know) soldered with any of their chips and Intel uses a special kind of solder that melts at a lower temperature than most other solders (and I'm sure is a special blend)
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