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Realtek ALC892 Opinions?
- Thread starter JohnnyCNote
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2011
Right, over HDMI there is no DAC needed als long as the Amp or receiver is picking up the signal in a digital way, so the codec capability is generally of low/no meaning to most of the digitally feed Amp driven setups. High end sound card codecs are usually used by gamers who connect a analog device such as headphones or PC spreakers to the sound card, Asus Xonar being a good example of such a sound card. Any high end receiver/Amp/Preamp is handling the signal conversion themself without the help of a sound card conversion. Some formats such as DTS is a bitstream mode, so the sound is not really converted at all. The only time a signal have to be made analog is when the speaker is driven on the speaker level i think. However, most receivers are using a DAC and are using analog data much sooner than on the speaker level.
When it comes to the question if a high end codec related on the DAC is useful for headphones or PC speakers, i think it rarely really does a difference as long as the DAC is above 105 dB or so. So in that term just as i said the ALC892 may be a bit weak although any new Realtek codec above 105 dB SNR value is probably not a bottleneck on sound quality... most likely the headphone or PC speakers with analog input ("analog Amp") i assume. High end speakers/Amp are way more sensitive but they usually are not picking up a analog signal and handle the conversion by themself.
Anyway, i still lack many knowledge and i do adore people like you that really show a lot of competence and one of the most useful post in my mind. So far we had to much of guessing and many inaccurate or situation related stuff.
When it comes to the question if a high end codec related on the DAC is useful for headphones or PC speakers, i think it rarely really does a difference as long as the DAC is above 105 dB or so. So in that term just as i said the ALC892 may be a bit weak although any new Realtek codec above 105 dB SNR value is probably not a bottleneck on sound quality... most likely the headphone or PC speakers with analog input ("analog Amp") i assume. High end speakers/Amp are way more sensitive but they usually are not picking up a analog signal and handle the conversion by themself.
Anyway, i still lack many knowledge and i do adore people like you that really show a lot of competence and one of the most useful post in my mind. So far we had to much of guessing and many inaccurate or situation related stuff.
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- Joined
- Oct 29, 2005
- Location
- Oregon
What may i ask is your primary language? I think u may have run the op off with your useless banter in any case.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2011
I just want to let people know that the words nor the question is not arriving, although there is no wrong questions (i even enjoy answering lollipop-matters) the arrival can become problematic. In order to make it able to arrive the essential thing is paying respect, so the kindergartener next door may have a better chance of success. Proper language is'nt a matter of grammar, it is a matter of "arrival" and usefulness is based on everyones own reality thus it is not universal.
Thanks anyway and have a good time
Thanks anyway and have a good time
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Alaric
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2011
- Location
- Satan's Colon, US
I have the OP's audio chip and find it "ok". I have no way to verify any mp3 vs CD sound analogies because I don't have any mp3 files. If I really want decent sound I burn a CD and use my CD player to play it. My PC and CD player go through the same amp and speakers so it is an apples/apples comparison. I have discovered that a sound card isn't going to improve on my CD player's audio quality so I haven't bothered.
Alaric
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2011
- Location
- Satan's Colon, US
Nope , no digital amps for me , and I can't afford a good valve amp at the moment. 
It's a Marantz PM 7200 set to operate Class A. Not really "high end" but it far exceeds it's price so I'm happy with it for now. My CD player also has an outstanding headphone section , but it would be nice to get good sound from my music files when I get some more cans. Until then I'm happy with the (Marantz) SA8260 and Paradigm speakers. My PC is ok for background and casual listening but it was originally intended for storage. Lost my turntable recently though , so I'm expanding my horizons.
It's a Marantz PM 7200 set to operate Class A. Not really "high end" but it far exceeds it's price so I'm happy with it for now. My CD player also has an outstanding headphone section , but it would be nice to get good sound from my music files when I get some more cans. Until then I'm happy with the (Marantz) SA8260 and Paradigm speakers. My PC is ok for background and casual listening but it was originally intended for storage. Lost my turntable recently though , so I'm expanding my horizons.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2013
I looked up that amp and it seems to be in the price range where you can get a pro grade digital amplifier. (Maybe you got it before such digital amplifiers were commonly available, in which case I understand.) If you were planning to stick a tube in line, 12au7s start at just over $10 and maybe at most $20 of other parts.
There's really little reason to buy an analog amplifier for PC use nowadays. With a digital amplifier, you can spare the cost of a good sound card and end up with better sound quality in the end.
There's really little reason to buy an analog amplifier for PC use nowadays. With a digital amplifier, you can spare the cost of a good sound card and end up with better sound quality in the end.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2011
Well, the issue with tube (valve) amps is:
1. They will suffer higher depletion compared to high quality solid state (transistor based) Amps. Note: Most solid state amps are sold in the mainstream range are terrible quality and may have less lifetime than a average tube (valve) amp.
2. Usually they only handle a analog input, so a good PC soundcard can be useful for digital to analog convertion by using a coaxial in/output, XLR possible too but rarely used because it seems to be a industry standart not common for consumer grade devices. However, and there comes the difficult spot: A PC soundcard is usually only specced by the SNR (signal to noise ratio) for analog to digital transfer of the sound but there is other factors that may play a role too but i am not a audiophile nor a Hifi expert so i am not trying to tackle those other specs here. Fact is that many Preamps are available that do basically handle the digital to analog convertion and the price is sometimes insane... (several thousand USD). The preamp in order to convert the signal can have a higher price than a tube amp, although in my mind it is overpriced (i already explained the why).
3. The power output at class A for a "affordable" tube amp (below 2k USD) can sometimes be so low (maybe 20-40W a channel) that even the most efficient consumer grade speaker may become issues with power output above 60-80 dB or so, thus clipping is almost unavoidable. Although such dB values are not necessary for continuous use, they may be used as a "peak value" for dynamic range, so i find it important that a amp can at least drive into the 80 dB range without serious clipping. Audiophiles may say that clipping of a tube is less "harsh" compared to the clipping of a solid state amp, however, a high quality solid state amp may have very few clipping and in that term may rarely experience this situation.
4. A subwoofer seems to be out of question because it may lack the required Amp support (Preamp, Soundcard), so it means to use very expensive floor standing speakers for a very deep bass reproduction. In that term the 2 speakers will be huge and maybe same price such as 4 high quality bookshelf speakers at once. The bookshelf speakers will have same quality tweeters but a weaker bass response, that may be taken over by a subwoofer. So, basically the price difference is because of the bass reproduction and sheer size, not much more.
5. Tube Amps may need new tubes but i think thats not a issue, a 12au7s is 10-20 USD or so, guess thats the thing Mike was bringing up. I dunno how many hours they will last but i guess it is comparable to a beamer bulb, several thousand hours or so. The issue simply is, they are usually constantly "powered up" unless the device is completely shut off. This is not the correct use for my continuous needs (unless i only use it in order to hear music, no movies or games) in that term the tubes will simply wear out to much when enabled 24h a day for as good as any occasions (not music only).
6. The term "digital" and "analog" amp can be misguiding, because most likely the meaning is "DAC convertion", this can be done either by Soundcard, Preamp or Receiver (a device that is including all the components). A soon as the convertion is done, the difference is basically either "solid state" (transistor based) or "tube/valve" Amp (dual triode based). This part is basically always done in a analog way because the speakers are analog driven devices they can not handle a digital approach, so this is the reason the sound always have to be converted into a analog signal without exception, i find it important to understand such basic matters.
7. The shiny 7 in order to give rather good answer to the topics question:
Actually i am dumb, i am by no means a capacity or competence on Hifi, the only difference is... i am interested and i want to know the stuff while most people have very few interest i feel. Besides, Mike is... very nice guy, helpful and whatelse and surely high competence, but sometimes he is to less practical when it comes to the terms on "how to make a dumb person understand the deal", i mean... people need basic matter and need to understand the basics first, else the "advanced knowledge" or many of the "useful but short hints" can be confusing...
1. They will suffer higher depletion compared to high quality solid state (transistor based) Amps. Note: Most solid state amps are sold in the mainstream range are terrible quality and may have less lifetime than a average tube (valve) amp.
2. Usually they only handle a analog input, so a good PC soundcard can be useful for digital to analog convertion by using a coaxial in/output, XLR possible too but rarely used because it seems to be a industry standart not common for consumer grade devices. However, and there comes the difficult spot: A PC soundcard is usually only specced by the SNR (signal to noise ratio) for analog to digital transfer of the sound but there is other factors that may play a role too but i am not a audiophile nor a Hifi expert so i am not trying to tackle those other specs here. Fact is that many Preamps are available that do basically handle the digital to analog convertion and the price is sometimes insane... (several thousand USD). The preamp in order to convert the signal can have a higher price than a tube amp, although in my mind it is overpriced (i already explained the why).
3. The power output at class A for a "affordable" tube amp (below 2k USD) can sometimes be so low (maybe 20-40W a channel) that even the most efficient consumer grade speaker may become issues with power output above 60-80 dB or so, thus clipping is almost unavoidable. Although such dB values are not necessary for continuous use, they may be used as a "peak value" for dynamic range, so i find it important that a amp can at least drive into the 80 dB range without serious clipping. Audiophiles may say that clipping of a tube is less "harsh" compared to the clipping of a solid state amp, however, a high quality solid state amp may have very few clipping and in that term may rarely experience this situation.
4. A subwoofer seems to be out of question because it may lack the required Amp support (Preamp, Soundcard), so it means to use very expensive floor standing speakers for a very deep bass reproduction. In that term the 2 speakers will be huge and maybe same price such as 4 high quality bookshelf speakers at once. The bookshelf speakers will have same quality tweeters but a weaker bass response, that may be taken over by a subwoofer. So, basically the price difference is because of the bass reproduction and sheer size, not much more.
5. Tube Amps may need new tubes but i think thats not a issue, a 12au7s is 10-20 USD or so, guess thats the thing Mike was bringing up. I dunno how many hours they will last but i guess it is comparable to a beamer bulb, several thousand hours or so. The issue simply is, they are usually constantly "powered up" unless the device is completely shut off. This is not the correct use for my continuous needs (unless i only use it in order to hear music, no movies or games) in that term the tubes will simply wear out to much when enabled 24h a day for as good as any occasions (not music only).
6. The term "digital" and "analog" amp can be misguiding, because most likely the meaning is "DAC convertion", this can be done either by Soundcard, Preamp or Receiver (a device that is including all the components). A soon as the convertion is done, the difference is basically either "solid state" (transistor based) or "tube/valve" Amp (dual triode based). This part is basically always done in a analog way because the speakers are analog driven devices they can not handle a digital approach, so this is the reason the sound always have to be converted into a analog signal without exception, i find it important to understand such basic matters.
7. The shiny 7 in order to give rather good answer to the topics question:
Basically yes, but sound cards in many cheap PC setups are also used together with PC speakers that only have a analog input comparable to headphones or a tube amp. So basically all the devices or speakers that are using analog input may have a benefit from a good soundcard. But people have to understand the why, because the DAC convertion in this term is not done by a "external" device but directly by the sound card. Unless we are attaching a Preamp but this is not a cost-sensitive solution and makes low sense because the speakers or headphones would be incapable making use of such a high quality DAC convertion and just as i already stated... i think any DAC above 105 SNR is a waste for like 99% of all PC headphones or speakers with the exception of a tube amp. However, a tube amp is so dirty expensive that someone could even attach some preamp and may gain a multi-solution for absolutly any device, not just PC (over soundcard). This is the spec the soundcard is lacking, it cant offer a cross-link for any other plattform outside PC use. Finally, yes, there is not much reason using a analog amp for PC use because simply to pricy and to less gain in such a setup, at least according to economical and practical means.
I dont know what to say, anyway, i guess Mike and other people surely can offer many good hints... and an apple is'nt always an apple. Apart from that even the big Apple is'nt always true.
Actually i am dumb, i am by no means a capacity or competence on Hifi, the only difference is... i am interested and i want to know the stuff while most people have very few interest i feel. Besides, Mike is... very nice guy, helpful and whatelse and surely high competence, but sometimes he is to less practical when it comes to the terms on "how to make a dumb person understand the deal", i mean... people need basic matter and need to understand the basics first, else the "advanced knowledge" or many of the "useful but short hints" can be confusing...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Location
- Seattle, WA
^ Nice post Ivy. For those of you whose eyes kind of glazed over at the length, point #6 is an important one to read.
Basically, audio happens like this these days:
Digital source -> DAC -> amplification -> output device
Digital source could be a CD, or an mp3 or flac file, or what have you. There's some digital music stored somewhere. The DAC (digital to analog converter) step converts this digital signal to analog so that it makes sense to your ears. The amplification takes the analog signal and boosts its power. The output device is your speakers or headphones. All of this *always* happens, unless you're able to listen to the digital steam because you're a robot.
A few examples of common setups:
Sound card to analog speakers
Here your sound card is the DAC. The speakers have an amplifier built in. They plug into your sound card with a 3.5mm plug.
Wireless headphones
Here the digital signal goes straight to the headphones over something like bluetooth. The headphones contain a battery-powered DAC and amplifier.
Headphones plugged into a laptop
Here the sound chip in the laptop is both the DAC and the amplifier.
Digital amp to speakers/headphones
Here the speakers and headphones are just the output device. The sound card sends the digital signal to the amp with a coax or optical cable. The amp is a combination DAC + amplifier.
In the cases where the sound card just sends the digital stream to some other DAC, the sound card doesn't really matter much. It's just passing the digital signal from one thing to another, so it doesn't have much chance to make things worse. The quality of the DAC + amplifier combo are what matter.
In the cases where the sound card is passing an analog signal to some other device, it's acting as the DAC and the quality does matter. For one, a PC case is a lousy place for an analog signal, since there's a lot of high frequency noise. DAC quality can very greatly, and typically the $5 sound chip the motherboard manufacturer embedded in the board isn't the most awesome DAC. Now that doesn't mean it's terrible - they're getting better and better as time goes on - but there are limits to how good it can be in that very constrained size/cost envelope. And if your sound chip is acting as both the DAC and the amplifier, the same limitations apply even more. Packing an amplifier and DAC into that tiny, inexpensive chip is a big ask, and the quality won't be great.
Often a digital amplifier is going to be a better DAC, but not always. It gets a digital signal from the PC, which helps with interference. But many digital amplifiers (surprise!) have a little $5 embedded DAC chip in them. The amplification stage will almost certainly be better, though.
Of course, the ideal is getting nice separates for each thing. Spend a bundle on a standalone DAC, spend a bundle on an amplifier, or maybe spend a bundle breaking the amplifier into a preamp and a power amp... you can throw a lot of money at it all to make it better. Does a $200 DAC/amp with nice $100 headphones sound 10 times better than a $20 pair of Sennheiser HD201s plugged into your $5 ALC892 embedded chip? Hmm... maybe. Does a $2000 DAC/amp into $1000 speakers sound 100x better than the same $25 HD201/ALC892 combo? Ha! No! It sounds great, but the returns start diminishing really fast.
Spend within your budget and stop spending when the sound makes you happy. Some people will be happy at that $25 dollar mark, and that's awesome. They'll have more money for other fun things. Some are happy at the $3000 mark, and that's great for them too (if they didn't buy it all on credit).
Basically, audio happens like this these days:
Digital source -> DAC -> amplification -> output device
Digital source could be a CD, or an mp3 or flac file, or what have you. There's some digital music stored somewhere. The DAC (digital to analog converter) step converts this digital signal to analog so that it makes sense to your ears. The amplification takes the analog signal and boosts its power. The output device is your speakers or headphones. All of this *always* happens, unless you're able to listen to the digital steam because you're a robot.
A few examples of common setups:
Sound card to analog speakers
Here your sound card is the DAC. The speakers have an amplifier built in. They plug into your sound card with a 3.5mm plug.
Wireless headphones
Here the digital signal goes straight to the headphones over something like bluetooth. The headphones contain a battery-powered DAC and amplifier.
Headphones plugged into a laptop
Here the sound chip in the laptop is both the DAC and the amplifier.
Digital amp to speakers/headphones
Here the speakers and headphones are just the output device. The sound card sends the digital signal to the amp with a coax or optical cable. The amp is a combination DAC + amplifier.
In the cases where the sound card just sends the digital stream to some other DAC, the sound card doesn't really matter much. It's just passing the digital signal from one thing to another, so it doesn't have much chance to make things worse. The quality of the DAC + amplifier combo are what matter.
In the cases where the sound card is passing an analog signal to some other device, it's acting as the DAC and the quality does matter. For one, a PC case is a lousy place for an analog signal, since there's a lot of high frequency noise. DAC quality can very greatly, and typically the $5 sound chip the motherboard manufacturer embedded in the board isn't the most awesome DAC. Now that doesn't mean it's terrible - they're getting better and better as time goes on - but there are limits to how good it can be in that very constrained size/cost envelope. And if your sound chip is acting as both the DAC and the amplifier, the same limitations apply even more. Packing an amplifier and DAC into that tiny, inexpensive chip is a big ask, and the quality won't be great.
Often a digital amplifier is going to be a better DAC, but not always. It gets a digital signal from the PC, which helps with interference. But many digital amplifiers (surprise!) have a little $5 embedded DAC chip in them. The amplification stage will almost certainly be better, though.
Of course, the ideal is getting nice separates for each thing. Spend a bundle on a standalone DAC, spend a bundle on an amplifier, or maybe spend a bundle breaking the amplifier into a preamp and a power amp... you can throw a lot of money at it all to make it better. Does a $200 DAC/amp with nice $100 headphones sound 10 times better than a $20 pair of Sennheiser HD201s plugged into your $5 ALC892 embedded chip? Hmm... maybe. Does a $2000 DAC/amp into $1000 speakers sound 100x better than the same $25 HD201/ALC892 combo? Ha! No! It sounds great, but the returns start diminishing really fast.
Spend within your budget and stop spending when the sound makes you happy. Some people will be happy at that $25 dollar mark, and that's awesome. They'll have more money for other fun things. Some are happy at the $3000 mark, and that's great for them too (if they didn't buy it all on credit).
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2013
Modern digital amplifiers (at least for speakers) do not use DACs in the traditional sense. They use Delta Sigma to convert the PCM to PWM/PDM, use that to drive some power MOSFETs or IGBTs, and then finish the conversion to analog using a low pass filter. Hence why they're sometimes called power DACs. The actual amplifying part (output stage) is not after the DAC, it's part of it.
Here's a (long!) video explaining how Delta Sigma works:
For those stuck with using the analog output of a sound card, what works well is to turn the volume all the way up on the sound card (but not into clipping), then use an external volume control to bring it back down. That helps boost the real world SNR.
Here's a (long!) video explaining how Delta Sigma works:
For those stuck with using the analog output of a sound card, what works well is to turn the volume all the way up on the sound card (but not into clipping), then use an external volume control to bring it back down. That helps boost the real world SNR.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Location
- Seattle, WA
As I understand it, delta-sigma modulation is a means of doing digital to analog conversion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-sigma_modulation
A digital amplifier (class D) is a high efficiency means of amplifying an analog signal. It does that amplification by converting the analog signal to a bunch of pulses, then lowpassing it, but it's just a clever means of amplification. There are always tradeoffs between D, AB, or pure A, but there are very high quality implementations of each out there.
The combination of delta-sigma conversion + class D amp is effectively a DAC followed by an amplifier. A class D amplifier can't amplify digital audio streams directly.
A digital amplifier (class D) is a high efficiency means of amplifying an analog signal. It does that amplification by converting the analog signal to a bunch of pulses, then lowpassing it, but it's just a clever means of amplification. There are always tradeoffs between D, AB, or pure A, but there are very high quality implementations of each out there.
The combination of delta-sigma conversion + class D amp is effectively a DAC followed by an amplifier. A class D amplifier can't amplify digital audio streams directly.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2013
The output of the Delta Sigma stage is still a digital signal. As such, there is no low level analog signal. The output from the power stage is still a digital signal*, just at a much higher voltage. Then the output filter cuts off the high frequency carrier and leaves behind the analog audio signal.
*Some argue that it's not perfectly digital due to the finite slew rates. But that's true of all digital signals in the real world. In fact, for very high frequency digital signals, they won't even look like square waves on a scope. The signals in a digital amplifier still look like square waves on a scope.
*Some argue that it's not perfectly digital due to the finite slew rates. But that's true of all digital signals in the real world. In fact, for very high frequency digital signals, they won't even look like square waves on a scope. The signals in a digital amplifier still look like square waves on a scope.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Location
- Seattle, WA
The latter, now.Are we helping the OP or continuing on about amps?
Although I think NiHaoMike might be right, my signal theory is a bit rusty. 
