You won't get much advantage biamping with two identical output channels apart from getting more controlled crossover done in the digital domain. The real advantage is when you use a low voltage, high frequency power stage for the tweeters, giving you more effective resolution. I'm not aware of any consumer grade amplifier that supports it.
Im not sure regarding the amp you got in mind, apparently "audiophile or industry grade", but it can be difficult to separate between "consumer" and "audiophile". In my mind a 2000+ USD Amp is not anymore "usual consumer grade", its the line where it will slowly become "audiophile"* at that point its not mainstream anymore. But the "consumer" is basically everyone except a industry, producers not consumers,... so it can be difficult to separate without more background knowledge. So i need to know a few examples regarding suitable Amps.
*Although the (major or mainstream) industry is using the words "audiophile" in order to supply stereo-only devices, but thats not audiophile in my mind, its just a tryout in order to serve theyr needs which is usualy stereo and not multichannel. Those kind of devices seems to be low quality stuff that is able to serve mainstream consumers. But even 600 USD Amps/Receivers are far to expensive in term they are blowing up in just 2.5 years and without active warranty.Thats sound at the unmatched cost of sheer build quality, not much more than cheating.
I don't even know how to respond to this. As long as I've ever known in regards to hi-fi, it can never do it all for you, but you must be the one to adjust to it.
No offense, but it sounds like you don't have the resources to demand what you want. I spent $900+ of hard earned money on a single 2 channel amplifier to drive a big load. Seven+ years later, it's still driving that same load. All I need to do to fill my entire home with sound is turn up the volume. I expect it to do so for another 20-30 years. When planned well, and you save your cash, you can make great investments--yes, high end audio is an investment, not simply a purchase. I've had my speakers for 8 years (purchased second hand btw) and I have no plans on giving them up anytime soon--they are still in mint condition and a beautiful addition to my home. There is no receiver in my system and I have no plans to ever add one. I think you know why. I may change my pre/pro from time to time, but I like my speakers and amp. They aren't going anywhere. Every time I sit down and listen they make me smile. That's enough for me.
The chipsets used (namely the DSP and the algorithms it uses to convert PCM to PWM/PDM) are constantly improving, though it's true that it happens at a very slow rate compared to most electronics. Speaker technology is indeed very mature and further improvements are quite tiny.
One of those pro grade digital amplifiers is the way to go for the best quality. Those good at DIY electronics might be able to build one for less, but purely digital amplifiers can get quite involved!
Tell me about it! My beloved Bowers and Wilkins P5 Headphones developed a short after 7 months of daily use as my computer headset. For $300 they should damn well last the entire warranty period of 2 years. 7 Months is utterly ridiculous. I will send mine in for repair ASAP and see how long the next pair lasts.
Not a fan of Class D myself. "Digital" amps just use digital processors to control the switching in a Class D amp. And while commercial grade gear can be built sturdy , sound quality is not always the number 1 priority. In fact , many (if not most) 'professional' amps sound less than stellar.
The audiophile community seems to be divided between modern digital technology and classic tube amps. Not surprisingly, it's usually the younger ones who prefer digital while some of the older ones prefer tubes. Then there are designs (a "digital" amp with a tube in the signal path) that try to combine the best of both worlds...
And there is a difference between pro audio for studio use and pro audio for PA use.
While I own some tube gear , my main amp is solid state and runs Class A. And pro studio gear isn't automatically good. Headphones , for example. I haven't noticed a division in the audiophile community between digital switching and tubes. It's generally between solid state and tubes , then Class D and everything else. Class D's appeal was never sound quality , only efficiency. My amp is a frickin' space heater , but proper implementation of Class D is still a rather pricey option. Think Rotel , Bel Canto , Nu Force , etc..
When I studied power electronics (only a few years ago), the instructor actually slammed the idea of running transistors in a "half on" state, at least for any meaningful amounts of power. He compared it to flooring the gas and modulating speed by varying pressure on the brake pedal. Which is really a good way of describing it - in a classic single ended amplifier topology, the pullup/pulldown resistor is constantly "accelerating" the output towards that supply rail while the tube or transistor is "braking" it to the other supply rail. No problem at signal levels, but when dealing with a few hundred watts, cooling the thing would be like cooling a few GPUs.
TI PurePath is one of the best chipsets out there for digital amps and they aren't that expensive. Just doing a quick search, I found a board based on the TAS5630 plus a PSU selling for just under $100. (Granted, that's not the pure digital version...) http://www.amazon.com/Sure-Electronics-Class-Amplifier-Supply/dp/B00LAZ4BRC
BTW, for the advanced DIYers out there, surplus telecom PSUs (typically 48V) make excellent PSUs for large amps and laptop PSUs work nicely for small ones. In particular, telecom PSUs are built tough and high quality. (So are quality PC PSUs, except they don't supply enough voltage for high power audio applications.)
I was referring to the price of having a reputable manufacturer build it. They really shouldn't cost as much as they do. Class A amps do make the heat. At 30 wpc , mine produces enough heat to rival several GTX 480s. Even in A/B mode 95 wpc gets warm enough to be uncomfortable to the touch.
Might be slightly off topic, but there were a few mentions of headphones...Try these cans out if you come across them. I use them both for studio listening & DJ'ing House/Techno music, though I mainly use Pioneer HDJ1000's for louder DJ environments.
Why is this site home to some of the best threads on any topic?
Really, I love this place.
Oh hey guys, I'm back!
and as for the Onkyo here's a touch of info on those bad network chips, sorry I wasn't here earlier but Onkyo has really been trying to deal with this issue and going so far as to ship up-to-date new units... at least according to what this thread at AVS was talking about.
Ivy, I dunno if you gave them a call, as many say, "I have a hard time reading your posts." but if you haven't you ought to give the customer service reps a call, apparently all the bad press from their 2009 to 2012 units is causing enough of a backlash that they obviously had to offer extended warranties on the offending parts and I would suspect they upgraded their components.
I actually took a gamble knowing all this and just ordered an Onkyo 838. I'll be making sure she doesn't get too hot as I would suspect that's a big part of the problem, but you can get a lot of features for cheap... and you know how I love a bargain.
Of course, I may have just shot myself in the foot but time shall tell
Well, sorry for my absence, i am as busy as usual.
My current solution has been upgraded a little, and the current "final outcome" is this one:
The total cost is around $ 3500*, which i consider a pretty cheap price for a build of this quality and the current capability. The general weakness is the quality but to be honest, i gave up striving for max quality because it is simply unrealistic unless i am dirty rich... and i am not like that. So the solution is to get the best sound for the buck, as easy as that.
The thing this build is exceeding at is 1. Price/Performance, Lets say i would enjoy same sound quality by only using 2 speakers, i would need speakers/Amp at probably double the price range and it wont be nearly as compact in size. Of course, sound may become even more smooth because less crossover-seam but same price range i consider unrealistic considering the high bass power it will have to cover all by itself. 2. Utility, means, it can be used for stereo music just as well as for 5.1 channel movies... so it is multi use in spec. It is very modular and still compact in size, so it can be separated and moved around into every single corner of a room, lot of possibility for acoustics adjustments. Regarding gaming-speakers, they usually are at such a low demand (many gamers use headphones) that it is not even worth to bring it up, although many new games are using genuine 5.1 channel surround and in that term are acting kinda same such as many of the movies, so "movies = gaming" in that term. 3. In my mind, it is awesome how nice this multichannel system is working together with each others...truly seamless and kinda one single shape when it comes to music output. Many audiophile** would say this is not possible using different brands and many channels, but according to my ears i am very satisfied... and ultimately it is me that need to be satisfied... not another person. Besides the subwoofer doesnt need to be facing frontwards, because bass sound is behaving different than high pitched sound, it is not direct lined but instead the waves are like balls and very penetrating (using the room as a sonic extension) so it is basically not a speaker that need to be facing to the hearer.
*Divided into:
SC-LX-56: 800 (this is a old model, it was a high end consumer-model priced at nearly 2k $ many years ago, but because of its age i got it for hard discount).
KEF Q300: 740 (sonic wave is coming from a single spot and is very penetrating, a spec i consider surround-friendly).
R400b: 1200 (cant be cheap on that, else it may not sound sufficient).
Diamond 10CS: 240 (rather cheap but sufficient for center, mainly for exact vocal, sounds surprisingly good for a speaker in that price range).
Klipsch: 500 (high dynamics and efficiency, so it suits front well).
**To be honest, i give a junk at many of those so called "audiophiles"; because they have to realize that the past is gone and for example in term they want to have full non digital music its as good as impossible because the digital data is already starting at the source... so it doesnt matter how to transfer the sound, the law is already broken by a single non analog medium. Some other say "as thicker the cable the better" another stuff i consider a myth... much more important is the general quality of the wires (100% copper or silver) and attachments. Some other say "a active subwoofer always sounds bad"... well according to my ears there is indeed very good stuff and to tell the truth, a usual (less than 2k $) receiver or amp can not handle the required power all allone, unless the price is so terribly high that 99% of the people simply cant afford. The economical solution is a active one... and nowadays i would say there is many great stuff available with realistic pricing.
In general room acoustics is underestimated, because it can play such a big role and most of the modern buildings with bad material got very very bad acoustics... so most of the homes are bad fit for high end sound, to be blunt. Fortunately i am living inside a home fully made with wood... so i am fortunate enough in order to have good acoustics by design. I rarely am visiting a church... but if i do the most important stuff by judging a church is 1. The acoustics, and 2. The art in general. The other stuff is very low on my priority order... just for the sake of the very same thing: Acoustics is probably half of the sound! It may sound funny but most of the modern church are bad acoustics, while many of the very old ones are astounding at that spec. Not telling the reasons because i may offend... just interesting to know.
There is no receiver in my system and I have no plans to ever add one. I think you know why. I may change my pre/pro from time to time, but I like my speakers and amp. They aren't going anywhere.
The reason is probably quality and at some point compatibility, the HDMI specs are a nuisance.
However, i am not dealing with Amps or Preamps the next 5 years because i am simply not satisfied with current offers, either to pricy, outdated tech or cheap crap... i am looking for the "sweet spot". When the time has come i may check out if there is the possibility for higher quality stuff and separated Amps. For now the Pioneer is doing well and i hope it stays like that for the next 5 years.
I actually took a gamble knowing all this and just ordered an Onkyo 838. I'll be making sure she doesn't get too hot as I would suspect that's a big part of the problem, but you can get a lot of features for cheap... and you know how I love a bargain.
Of course, I may have just shot myself in the foot but time shall tell
Ah well... you should save up the bullet, i can handle it and the issue was creating so much waves that Onkyo cant continue anymore without fixing it and it may be fixed already. However, the general consumer of such tech is such a dumb pumpkin that they may not even notice the issue, so it is actually a miracle that there is even a wave.
But we are same when it comes to bargain demand or even love. So far i consider my Pioneer receiver a bargain as well because it seems to be perfectly suitable for my needs, everything works as intended. Very good sound (it actually made me cry... but i am very emotional so it is no biggie) and it got so many audio adjustment options (Advanced MCACC), so the speakers are working together in a seamless way. At first i was a bit worried that it may be a impossible task to handle but the Pioneer truly is a very capable receiver and more than just "consumer grade", its already a little bit professional but still not the true stuff. The last part i added was the subwoofer and i was more than worried if it would be able to be implemented in a fitting and seamless way. And actually it worked better than i ever was expecting... it is not just a integration, its a "inclusion"; without this subwoofer a part would be missing because less detailed and less powerful bass. I have to add, most people may have in mind a bass is "boom boom boom", but thats not the case. "Boom" is actually a depleted form of bass in order to suit kids of modern age i assume. True bass is simply a extension into the very bottom and is very noticeable when hearing Organ and of course huge japanese drums and many monster-sized instruments in general... no boom boom but true bass. In movies it is kinda giving a shaking feeling at explosions... without good bass its so much worse.
When it comes to quality... i cant tell... i think the build quality is better than the Onkyo (because of warranty i cant open it and there is very few good pictures of internal parts) and it may last 5 years without issue... thats the plan at least. Heat is indeed always a issue, even a class D Amp/Receiver can become pretty hot, so it should not be underestimated. I am not exactly sure why because the power demand should be mainly a matter of dB output, although even when there is no sound the receiver is still very hot.
Edit:
Well, the build obviously is not final... its just "temporary final":
The next huge step will be in 5 years i already told, when im gonna upgrade Amp/Receiver.
But there is another step i want to execute, because the Klipsch is a good Front Speaker but not my dream-bookshelf. I think i can leech out even more sound (at higher cost too) by adding a Goldenear Speaker. However, so far i was unable to get my hand on one of them, it would be easy on the US market but in Europe it is a hard cookie to crack... it will take a while to get me a set of them.
The build i want to execute for the next 5 years is this one:
Cost is probably +1000 $ for the Goldenears (that company is providing very fair priced stuff, it is simply a supreme bookshelf speaker), so its twice the price of the Klipsch and one of the most expensive Bookshelf i ever meet, but i think it is worth it, a ribbon tweeter for the front is truly the "last bit of super sound" someone needs, but on a front only... it would be overkill for other speakers, as they perform great at the current specs with almost zero loss. But the front is something very important because it will always cover any sound... without any exclusion. Those Bookshelf perform basically at the same level such as the Floorstanding speakers from Goldenears (according to them), however, the bass is weaker (natural, because bass is always reduced when case not big enough*). The thing is, i dont need the bass because i use a subwoofer... so i wont have any trade offs, but a more compact speaker setup, so it was kinda the stuff i was looking for. Sound that can match even bigger systems but at smaller size.
*I have to add, bass is a matter of "moving air" as far as i know, sheer size can help that matter but it is not only size that counts, some subwoofer are moving more air by having a very big "hub" movement, so they are simply very agile and can move high air volume even at smaller size. Still, there is always some limitations and a bookshelf is a bit to small, no matter what tech is used but thats what subwoofers are here for. In fact, indeed a huge sized subwoofer can go very low into the very Hz bottom, but it may lack the required agility for a good bass resolution. Even a subwoofer is in need of some agility... else it is simply to slow in order to have a good precision, no matter if it can produce 5 Hz or even less... Hz spec is not the only stat that is important. Some subwoofers may be underpowered at the Amp and may lack agility because of that matter.
Of course tweeters are in highest need of agility, and i think the ribbon tech is one of the tweeter techs with highest agility. There is some trade off when it comes to the direction of the sound, because ribbon based tweeters are probably the ones with the most "direct lined" sound, so the positioning may be essential. However, it can truly produce one of the best tweeter sounds ever made. The usual soft dome.. or dome tweeters in general, are better when it comes to filling the room at almost any spot and can be pretty penetration (such as the KEF... in my mind very good surround speakers) but they may not entirely be able to match the resolution of a precise and extremely agile ribbon tweeter.
Regarding the Klipsch, they are not a waste, they can be used on another room as a secondary speaker set (probably gonna drive them by using a stereo Amp, the one NihaoMike was suggesting) because i still lack other speakers for guest room and such... no need to sell or whatelse. The 2x60 W power is perfectly suitable for the rather efficient Klipsch, it can drive pretty loud when paired together, no need for high Amp power, all what truly counts is quality when i put the Klipsch on it. In term i have some guest... they will see a pair of small baby Klipsch speakers and imagine it may only sound "so so la la"... and then i use the demonized baby Amp (Oh? Did you buy it from Walmart?) and it may almost blow them away and then gonna tell with a professional voice "quality is all what counts... dont be fooled by size nor numbers". There is always good and funny uses...
Regarding my old Onkyo Receiver... to be honest, i think im gonna try out extended warranty but i dont want to keep it anymore... i cant find a enjoyment using them anymore. So i think im gonna hand them over to some friends or family as a present, most of them dont even have a receiver. In term there is no repair/replacement... ok i simply will destroy it (face my anger...) and throw it away after (would be a sad bear story in any term... in that term, we will see). In theory i could use the repaired Onkyo for Guestroom, although it is just crap in my eyes... excuse me... i mean ears. Because i really would have great joy trying out that stereo Amp. NihaoMike was bringing it up so many times, that i cant anymore resist hearing it out... and now that i may have the Klipsch "left", i may have good opportunity for another setup.
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They really shouldn't cost as much as they do. Class A amps do make the heat. At 30 wpc , mine produces enough heat to rival several GTX 480s. Even in A/B mode 95 wpc gets warm enough to be uncomfortable to the touch.
as I would suspect that's a big part of the problem, but you can get a lot of features for cheap... and you know how I love a bargain.
