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Tet's Fall Project! The "movie room" (researching phase)

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Tetrall

Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Location
Alaska
Hey Guys!

So... after a very successful time building a computer with a lot of great ideas and advice, I figured I'd bring my next big project to you guys for expert imput.

Back story

Last year I decided to buy a house, and threw all of my available funds (minus the emergency funds of course) at the idea. I got a very nice home with two and a half stories. One of these levels has a large walk out basement with a nice sized room that is dark and quiet with a drop ceiling... making it easy to run wires and mount speakers.

The Mission

Our mission, is to come up with a nice high end enterainment area. I have a nearby bar and mini-frig situation.

The "Details"

  • 3D projector or TV, not super expensive but something that won't be out-dated next year.
  • A surround sound system 7.1 very good quality, again something that will last, I'm more interesting in a high quality sound that a higher quality projector because it seems like the visual tech changes so much faster than the sound.
  • I can pick the chairs locally but any suggestions are hot!
  • Advice outside of what I'm asking for directly is usually even more valuable than what I do ask for... If you've ran into issues or have any advice I'd love to hear it!

I can (in about three weeks) provide some dimensions if need be, but this (along with some decorating which I incidently suck at :chair:) is my project for the upcoming winter season, and for the free 2,000 dollars that we're getting for living in Alaska this year. (for more info on that, look up Alaska PFD.)

Thanks everyone! Looking forward to this one!
 
Take a look at the Seiki 4K displays. They're cheap but good. You can "downshift" them to 1080p/120Hz for playing games.

For a receiver, get a nice one with HVIC output stages like a Samsung or some of the newer Pioneers (looks like the VRM on a motherboard and should only get slightly warm when on but not playing anything). Some receivers introduce lag if you run the HDMI signal through it (and only a few support 4K), so I recommend using S/PDIF from the onboard audio. Another route, if you're really interested in great audio and don't mind spending a lot, is to buy professional grade digital amplifiers.

For a surround setup, the two front speakers are far more important than the rest. Concentrate your speaker budget on those. Don't bother with fancy speaker cables - ordinary wire works just as well.
 
Take a look at the Seiki 4K displays. They're cheap but good. You can "downshift" them to 1080p/120Hz for playing games.

For a receiver, get a nice one with HVIC output stages like a Samsung or some of the newer Pioneers (looks like the VRM on a motherboard and should only get slightly warm when on but not playing anything). Some receivers introduce lag if you run the HDMI signal through it (and only a few support 4K), so I recommend using S/PDIF from the onboard audio. Another route, if you're really interested in great audio and don't mind spending a lot, is to buy professional grade digital amplifiers.

For a surround setup, the two front speakers are far more important than the rest. Concentrate your speaker budget on those. Don't bother with fancy speaker cables - ordinary wire works just as well.

Wow - excellent info.

I'm really just starting this new journey. The beginning is going to be just gathering all the things I'm going to need to understand what I'm getting myself into...

Yes - I'm interested in great audio, durable audio. I hate it when a speaker starts to go out... some of the car speakers I've dealt with I can only play super quiet so I don't have to hear that horrible vibration. I don't know if that translates into home audio equipment... my little cousin is the audiophile.

I'll start looking at Seiki and comparing it to a few of the other suggestions I've recieved! :ty:
 
All the Onkyo receivers I have come across are IPM or through hole MOSFET based. Not really a bad technology but it is outdated and doesn't really belong in that price class. (Exception: Through hole MOSFETs and IGBTs are great for large subwoofer applications where their lower carrier frequencies don't matter and where an awful lot of power is needed.) HVICs and surface mount MOSFETs work much better and are very frequently used in modern professional digital amplifiers.

Here's an example of a professional grade HVIC based amplifier:
http://qlshifi.com/en/wzcapi/qa100.htm
The HVICs are the chips that are covered by a heatsink. You also see the output filter. It starts looking like a VRM, and in fact, you can think of an audio amplifier as a special sort of VRM where the output is changing in response to the audio signal! (Technically, that would be an inverter while a VRM is a converter.)

In your setup, it would work nicely for the front speakers, with a crossover to drive the subwoofers. For the rears and sides, a much cheaper amplifier will do, even one driven off the analog outputs of your sound card. (The rears and sides are noncritical. It's the fronts that really count.) Make sure you have a sound card that can output digital for the fronts and analog for the rears and sides at the same time and it will just work.

Are you good with DIY electronics? It might make sense to build your own amp from a TI eval board and a surplus telecom PSU.
 
All the Onkyo receivers I have come across are IPM or through hole MOSFET based. Not really a bad technology but it is outdated and doesn't really belong in that price class. (Exception: Through hole MOSFETs and IGBTs are great for large subwoofer applications where their lower carrier frequencies don't matter and where an awful lot of power is needed.) HVICs and surface mount MOSFETs work much better and are very frequently used in modern professional digital amplifiers.

Here's an example of a professional grade HVIC based amplifier:
http://qlshifi.com/en/wzcapi/qa100.htm
The HVICs are the chips that are covered by a heatsink. You also see the output filter. It starts looking like a VRM, and in fact, you can think of an audio amplifier as a special sort of VRM where the output is changing in response to the audio signal! (Technically, that would be an inverter while a VRM is a converter.)

In your setup, it would work nicely for the front speakers, with a crossover to drive the subwoofers. For the rears and sides, a much cheaper amplifier will do, even one driven off the analog outputs of your sound card. (The rears and sides are noncritical. It's the fronts that really count.) Make sure you have a sound card that can output digital for the fronts and analog for the rears and sides at the same time and it will just work.

Are you good with DIY electronics? It might make sense to build your own amp from a TI eval board and a surplus telecom PSU.

Well NiHaoMike, I'm learning... I used to do nothing but game and that really stunted my experience level. I've taken classes in instrumentation where we learned a touch about AC/DC physics in our lab, I can read resistors, put in a cap the right direction, do the math... but that's pretty much all theoretical.
 
Learning how to setup your speakers in your room, investing in sound baffling and spending time doing this properly can greatly increase sound quality. I made an audio setup with and without panels, and the sound quality difference was staggering. Plenty of room kits available for not too much money out there.
 
Here's how to make your own acoustic paneling:

Holy cow... I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole :D

When I went and started looking at computer's I researched and researched... until I finally figured out exactly what I wanted, I feel like this is going to be the same. Golden Ear seems really good, Klipshe seems nice, Polk looks a little spendy for what your getting... So many choices! Totally overwhelmed :D
 
UPDATE:

Hey guys, like I said in the other forum, I'm back... hopefully with a vengeance!

So I decided on a 5.1 system here's what I got, please critique because I'm always happy to hear where I may have screwed up! :D

Onkyo TX-NR838

Why did you choose Onkyo?

I spent a lot of time reading reviews, agonizing over features... but in Alaska... it was literally 2.5 hours to get anywhere I could demo a receiver, even when I did, I found that usually they weren't calibrated correctly for the rooms. I ended up going with what sounded pretty good at everything to me... which sadly may have had more to do with the speakers and location that actual performance (more on that later).

My logic is that Onkyo hit bottom in 2009-2012 scandal and they are suffering from it... and apparently they have turned over a new leaf but their prices have been suppressed to some extent because of the bad publicity... they are in the process of rebuilding their name and I'm profiting... and if I tinker enough I should be able to get good sound from the Onkyo and be partially future proofed against Dolby ATMOS if I decided to go that route... if it fails in a couple of years I can upgrade to the receiver that that I trusted more from reviews which is a Marantz or a Pioneer Elite (another company that has gone through a down-cycle).

Bottom Line: I had a budget and I had to work in it and sacrifice something... since I'm not convinced that different receivers sound all that different if equally calibrated I had to go with the best bang for buck... albeit a risky choice based on history but Pioneer went through it's down turns too so we shall see how this goes!

Speakers:

Ok - the goodies.

Fronts: 2x Triton 2's
Center: SuperCenterXL
Rear:2x SuperSat 3's

Reasoning:
I got to listen to B&W, M&L, Def Tech, Polk, and that's about it... it's a limited play land up here... of what I heard the GEs blew everything away for my ears. There's a lot of hype on these speakers and I don't buy all of it as people tend to jump on the band-wagon but I just loved how smooth and natural the sound was... even when the high's were piercing for me it was still smooth. The B&W line seemed more "tight" but those tweeters just stabbed my ears. Most likely it was the room but I couldn't get them based on that... they were also 2.5K a piece and had zero sub performance so I couldn't justify the cost when the GE's gave so so much for so comparatively little.

Def tech sounded more muddied in comparison, as large of sound stage for cheaper in 8K series but just not what I was looking for... if I had a smaller budget they would have been great contenders though!

The high end def-tech Mythos display was impressive, they had a room designed for those speakers in particular and it was amazing... until I watched "The desolation of Smaug" and it got to the part where Gandalf faced off with Sauron. The base seemed to rattle the speakers so badly that it distorted the highs that are the contrast of the scene and resulted in a distorted muddy sound that really robbed the scene of it's intended effect. Smaug's voice also seemed to be very boomy and shrill... which of course, could have just been due to someone else coming in and messing with the speakers and the tech not knowing that it had been screwed with.

The Triton 2's sold me because they just seemed to effortlessly handle my favorite movie and beautifully handled the string instruments. I love the Base Cello, the violin, and the heavy base and tweeters on this system just gave me a well rounded sound. Also, with the two heavy base radiators in the Triton's I didn't feel I needed to add a dedicated subwoofer seperate.

The SuperCenterXL really seemed to complement the Tritons and was not overwhelmed as some of the other systems were that I demoed in the stores. Can't really say much more than that about them as being balanced with the fronts was pretty much all I was looking for.

The Sat 3's I chose simply because it was the cheapest option for rears... if I upgrade to ATMOS down the road it will be an easy transition.

Bottom Line

I picked the speakers that sounded best to me and for the price they seemed a great bargain and would give me the ability to upgrade later if I chose.


Projector setup

I got lucky on the video equipment as my buddy is upgrading and wanted to get rid of his Sony HW-30ES... which is more than I need for an 8 foot diagonal... all the space I have to put the screen in.

Haven't really decided on the screen yet, more to come on that anyways!
 
UPDATE:

Speakers:

Ok - the goodies.

Fronts: 2x Triton 2's
Center: SuperCenterXL
Rear:2x SuperSat 3's


The Triton 2's sold me because they just seemed to effortlessly handle my favorite movie and beautifully handled the string instruments. I love the Base Cello, the violin, and the heavy base and tweeters on this system just gave me a well rounded sound. Also, with the two heavy base radiators in the Triton's I didn't feel I needed to add a dedicated subwoofer seperate.

The SuperCenterXL really seemed to complement the Tritons and was not overwhelmed as some of the other systems were that I demoed in the stores. Can't really say much more than that about them as being balanced with the fronts was pretty much all I was looking for.

The Sat 3's I chose simply because it was the cheapest option for rears... if I upgrade to ATMOS down the road it will be an easy transition.

Bottom Line

I picked the speakers that sounded best to me and for the price they seemed a great bargain and would give me the ability to upgrade later if I chose.
The Triton 2 are surely a awesome deal and without the need of a subwoofer, although those standing speakers are rather large in size and not everyone got much room to spare or simply may be bothered by to big sized stuff. The bass is indeed great but this is not a miracle at all because those front speakers got a build-in amplifier with apparently 1200 W of power capacity. It surely is sounding great but i would not feel to impressed about raw number crunching, ultimately the raw capacity may give some sign about the dynamics but ultimately it doesnt say how detailed a sound is behaving, so the capacity may give possibilitys but not much more.

The super center XL in my mind is overkill for a center speaker because the rather huge size is only needed in order to supply more bass, although in a 5.1 setup the bass is handled only by front speakers or a dedicated subwoofer. Center and surround speakers are cut at 80 Hz crossover by THX spec, so they dont need a rock bottom super deep bass. In that term, huge center and surround speaker is overkill.

The Super Sat 3 is mainly for people who got few room to spare (but you already got a huge front speaker, so i guess room is not your issue) and it will be easy to attach them at every single spot. However, the price is rather high and for the same price some bigger sized and better sounding bookshelf speakers may be a better deal (of course, if you got room to spare). Why im telling that is because in term the 5.1 channel system is playing stereo music without advanced codec support (for example DTS NEO X), the surround speaker will not act as a surround speaker but instead working the same way a frontspeaker does. In that term the surround speaker will become a secondary "stereo speaker" with the exactly same sound such as the frontspeaker. However, the "secondary" speaker wont be used in order to cover bass at below 80 Hz, but the frequencys above 80 Hz will be exactly the same. So in term a 5.1 system is used in order to play music, it is indeed a good idea having some capable surround speakers for "secondary use" (as a stereo speaker for stereo output, in term no HDMI available).
5.1 at stereo.png

Attention: Im no audiophile nor expert, i just try to share knowledge and i may have wrong spots... if so i enjoy people trying to correct me.
 
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Well Ivy, to answer some of your thoughts here it is:

On the SuperCenterXL - I felt that investing in the center was a good choice, though I don't know if I can tell the difference between the 60C and the SCXL... at least (like you said) in a 5.1 situation. The SuperCenter was overkill... for now, but I wanted to buy the fronts and the centers just this one time and take very good care of them. I'm not the kind of guy to get the upgrade bug on such a large major purchase... but I will most likely desire to add more speakers and better receivers/amps later on to get every ounce out of these Towers. They were at the top of my personal price range and were the best bang for the buck that I heard.

I really love classical music, orchestral, strings, and organs and cello music... so eventually down the road I may upgrade the rear speakers... and then get another set of SuperSat 3s to mount up higher for a 5.1.4 ATMOS system. I've heard a similar system that my buddy has set-up and I found the massive sound stage on the the Triton 2s played in analog stereo to be extremely large, encapsulating, and just beautiful for listening to a orchestral music where most of the sound should be expected to come from the front anyways... though honestly, it felt like I was sitting in the front row of the concert, even with just the two of them going.

So the SuperSat 3s are a temporary solution to me being frugal and trying to do this in stages rather than all at the same time. I can "make due" with just running the Tritons for stereo listening and later on I can add a set of 7s or threes to the back...

don't tempt me to upgrade to Triton One's and make the Twos my backs. If I do that... well, my good friend is considering doing that so if he does and really makes that huge of difference I might consider going crazy... err I mean upgrading.

For now, it should be a lot of fun for a guy who had a 300 dollar clearance sale BOSE and a 40" TV... barely 1080P. ;)
 
Im using an onkyo for the same reasons. I've been pleased with mine! Good luck with the build.
 
For now, it should be a lot of fun for a guy who had a 300 dollar clearance sale BOSE and a 40" TV... barely 1080P. ;)
That is indeed true, the BOSE are low rated "lifestyle" speakers for light watcher eaters, not even worth the bucks to be honest,... so you indeed made a huge step in audio-quality. I am not telling it without clear reasons, because i know someone with BOSE speakers for watching movies, and everytime i hear that sound when im finish watching i have to wipe my tears and am regreting it that my speakers sounds so good, somewhat unfair. In term im being caught having tears im gonna tell "ah the movie was so good". Back home, when i watch movie using my sound system... i may have tears because it sounds so good and i just cant stop crying, a bit messy at times. For me, mentality is clear... either do it right or go dreaming... but really no use to waste my valuable lifetime for half- baked cookies, simply to valuable. The only reaason "lifestyle" actually seems to works on me is because everytime i hear it i feel like i have to vomit... (sad bear story).

All the Onkyo receivers I have come across are IPM or through hole MOSFET based. Not really a bad technology but it is outdated and doesn't really belong in that price class. (Exception: Through hole MOSFETs and IGBTs are great for large subwoofer applications where their lower carrier frequencies don't matter and where an awful lot of power is needed.) HVICs and surface mount MOSFETs work much better and are very frequently used in modern professional digital amplifiers.
I have the feeling that Onkyo is all about "bass dynamics", and they try to boost that spec with all they got. It may result into "boomy" sounds and rather unnatural but the modern lifestyle-attached people are loving it. It may not be the case for the highest grade receivers... i dunno. But the sound difference when i compare my Onkyo with Pioneer is clearly hearable. The Onkyo is always over saturating the bass range and is trying to push a lot while my Pioneer got a good bass but is very subtle and is giving a high equality to every single frequency, so in that term superior for music but it may sound less spectacular for certain games or movies.

But the thing that comes in mind by knowing those specs is because you say that the tech Onkyo is using is very suitable for high powered woofers but rather inferior for low powered or high frequency stuff. It could be true that Onkyo is reacting to a popular market demand... simply lot of boom boom but not truly trying to suit the "audiophile demand" for the most precise and most accurate sound. Of course i dont have many samples in order to prove my theory, just my old 7.1 Onkyo, but it was not the cheapest Onkyo receiver, lower-mid class and the sound quality should be able to represent some of theyr potential.

The problem is, it is difficult to say what kind of tech the receivers or amps are using because me and any other buyers is usualy lacking those sort of infos. So, you may be able to give valuable infos regarding the used tech and its strong and weak points, but there is simply almost no clue how to find out whats truly inside. So the knowledge is valuable but simply not very practical, i dont know how to make use of it when i dont know whats inside... sad stuff. I think it is no secret that many manufacturers, probably almost any mainstream manufacturer is using "outdated" and cheap tech components on many spots, because they simply want to save up on cost and almost no one is actually noticing it. They will boast around with raw "power handling" specs and countless features "oh dat Iphone super APP... oh the air play or other gooooodies" but not a single word about the true audio quality. Because it is simply market demand... who cares tech, all most people truly care is if the Iphone can play wireless MP3 and what HDMI spec or whatelse, it is indeed sad. Its all just goodies and non relevant capacity matters but nothing to do with true audio quality and you know it yourself much better than i do, but thats simply how it comes down the road and i dont really know how to deal with.
 
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Ivy I really loved the sound of the Pioneer Elite receiver I heard, the bass sounded very clean but my dealer only likes to sell Onkyo products.

The other thing is, I've heard that if you can set-up your receiver with the old-fashion manual technique you'll be able to fine-tune your sound to be much more neutral, that's something I was intending to do rather than just having ACCU-EQ do all the work for me.

My two favorites were Pioneer Elite and Marantz from what I heard on systems where they could "switch" just the receiver and leave the rest of the equipment the same (this was at Magnolia's) but when I actually was listening to Golden Ear I found the Marantz to be absolutely beautiful, the Onkyo was also amazing. Honestly, because they were in different rooms, I found that the acoustics of the room were more telling than the actual receiver and that convinced me that I could go with the cheaper model so long as I was careful in my placement and developing my room acoustical treatments I would get more bang for my buck that way. DIY panels will be a big part of my initial design.

What I am intending to do is get my buddy to bring over his Marantz and we will test the two back-to-back in my home to really hear the difference.

Honestly, I think that would be the best way to do it and if I recommended anything to anyone it would be this: If you can, demo the equipment in your own home where you intend to use it before committing to any particular speaker/receiver. My remote location prevented me from doing this, but if you can do this, you should. Sound is very subjective, and there are a ton of factors that will influence your opinion.

Also, if you can avoid worrying about price and simply pick based on what you hear... you may or may not save a few dollars. Some folks really love the 8K series speakers from DT, some people love the B&W line... but they are priced and designed completely different and appeal to different crowds.

Hey Bob! How are you liking your Onkyo?
 
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Not sure what you mean by "8K from DT", but B+W is well known to me, although the design is rather old school. Goldenears is currently one of the most innovative speaker companys i guess so im really interested into checking and hearing them out.

The issue i have with B+W is that they truly are creating a huge gape between low, mid and high end in many terms. For example the diamond tweeter is only used on top notch and basically every price range is having a very high bonus. So in that term, customers that are buying "lower end" are kinda a secondary class... not a "true" customer, simply feeding them with mainly junk i think and handing over the shiny stuff to the rich customers only. The result is that, in my mind and ears the B+W at lower price range can not entirely match comparable priced KEF speakers (for example)... so it is simply not a option for me. This is a general tech issue, not much of "hearing preference" but of course everyone is free to buy whatever they feel like. In my mind B+W is for the rich and they indeed may get astounding sound but consumers with less wealth may better look elsewhere.

That leads me to a hint, a well known manufacturer named Wharfedale is kinda challenging the lower or mid end lines of B+W but in my mind they got better suited stuff and very fair priced. The general build quality of the "lower/mid consumer grade" series are not anything worse than B+W (many comparable specs, Kevlar cone, and very capable tweeter) but at much better price, so i safely would pass on lower/mid end B+W, to be blunt and go for Wharfedale instead. I was going for Wharfedale in order to suit my needs of a capable but still affordable center (the Diamond 10 CS @240 $ is a very friendly price for a speaker of such build quality) and the offer was looking and sounding good to me.

Another manufacturer like KEF is going a more smooth line of stepping up. Theyr are not creating such a huge gape between the series, but instead even the lower priced stuff is performing very well and is having many parts that is equal to high end series. The only difference is that there is less drivers and the frequency switch may be less quality but the difference is not that huge compared to B+W (for example the KEF bookshelf got the same quality tweeter such as the flagship), so it is basically more fair toward "secondary class" consumers... all got a chance to get good sound, even the ones with smaller money bags. KEF is trying to provide a lot of high end but is at the same time trying to stay "affordable", with the exception of the flagship.

Goldenear, a pretty new company so it is at the same time hard to get their speakers except for people located in the US (because US based). Seems to be very fair priced and everyone will have the best tweeter possible, they got unique mentality when it comes to economics and i love it. The material quality and endurance is probably just average but with astounding achitecture able to provide one of the best sound it seems. Interesting to see that a company is trying to break the rule that the top notch HIFI is only affordable for like 1% of the people... yet, they make it affordable to a much bigger range of consumers, an awful lot of people could probably save up the bucks for a pair of those speakers and without any real loss in sound quality it seems, thats a miracle.

Ultimately, sure, you can always say that we all hear different and that we all may have different preference for a fitting or favorable speaker. But there is still some economical rules and some deals are simply better than other deals... and i wont even waste my time testing out speakers that are obviously trying to rob my money bag because i am not a rich geek, i seek fair priced stuff too. But from the fair priced stuff, fair priced means the tech will have to reflect price; For a 1000$ pair of speakers i expect nothing less than the top notch tweeter* because its doable with some willpower and production efficiency, if they cant do it... no need to bother (those companys obviously are seeking people that regularily are driving rolls royce cars and such). I surely try to check out as many as possible, but there is very few options to be honest... there is not many specialized vendors with testing possibilitys anymore in my country. It may be much better in the US, especially close to the big citys... US is simply another scale when it comes to such terms, never forget.

*Why i am making such a big deal when it comes to tweeter? Because in most setups the tweeter is covering the biggest frequency range of any driver but at the same time it is a part that is not overly huge and can be build inside affordable price range. So, in term the tweeter is first class (flagship quality), it is already a big part of the cookie. Because nowadays there is very capable active subwoofers and the offers are nonstop increasing, the subwoofer tech is still advancing faster than any other speaker-tech, they can soon cover the lacking bass power of "cheaper solutions" very well... so all what truly will stay critical is the tweeter, not necessarely the bass drivers.

Regarding AMP/Receiver: Just as i told several times, i am not handling that matter anymore for the next 5 years, so i wont be dealing with in near future. But i will investigate the matter closely and try to gather as much knowledge as possible... so i will be ready when the timeline has passed.
 
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Well Ivy, if you like tweeters I'd love for you to hear a set of the HVFR tweeters on the GE speakers and see what you think. It was one of the reasons I chose all GE speakers for the matching tweeters on ever speaker.

To answer your question: the 8K series by DT was the 8000 series Definative Tech Front Towers, a good example was the 8080 which had a huge envelope, amazing for movies I am sure!
 
Well, i will be looking out for the Goldenear speakers in a half year or so, now is not the right time in my pocket. The frequency range, dB or whatever is fun stuff in order to impress but it got no meaning, i finally noticed. The stuff speakers still are lacking is the sound resolution at a actually limited frequency range the human can actually hear (especially the range between 3 and 5 kHz). At some spot the human hearing got a sensitivity of less than 0 dB and so far not a single speaker or Amp is able to hand out the required dynamic range as far as i know. Resulting into dynamic range compression, so the difficult stuff is not to "cover a frequency range" or "reaching dB values", the difficulty is to put in as much fidelity as technically possible into a actually limited frequency range. A tweeter is usually covering the range between 3 and 5 kHz and this is the most sensitive spot of human hearing and even the background noise is much louder, so i definitely will upgrade the front speaker at least for even better tweeters in not more than 6 months. However, the surround/secondary speakers (KEF Q300) are totally sufficient to do their job and they got a impressive KEF proprietary design that is only marginally weaker than the Goldenear tweeters, i am pretty sure. All i need is some upgrade for the front speakers i say.

In another post i already told, because of the high efficiency a waveguide can provide the Klipsch speakers got own unique uses, for example when paired together with a "weak" 60 W Amp, they will still produce full and crispy sound at adequate almost non clipping 80 dB (up to 100 dB at 60W/4.5m). They are not a waste, i will have other uses for them. Note: Continous Max dB means nothing to me, the thing that matters is the possible dynamic range a "adequate dB value can offer".
 
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