Questions about Radiators and Fans (Mostly radiators)

First, just let me say this is going to be a long post. Sorry about that. it is also my first, so please be gentle.

Second, I do not know if it should be put here or in the watercooling section, so anyone with the power please move it if needed.

Thirdly, my case is a Caselabs STH10 Magnum, so I do have space for anything suggested in the future.

Fourthly, I am in the UK. Which retailer doesnt matter, as i am more than happy to import if need be.

Onto the main bulk of the post:

First, a couple questions about fans.

I am thinking of getting either the Noctua Industrial NF-A14 140 x 25mm Fan (http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2...Fan_-_2000_RPM_NFA14IPPC20.html?tl=g36c15s775) or the Noctua Industrial NF-A14 140 x 25mm PWM Fan - 3000 RPM (http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2...0_x_25mm_PWM_Fan_-_3000_RPM_NFA12IPPC30P.html).

But I want to know two things.

One, can the 2000RPM fan have its speed varied if I use a fan controller?

Second, which would be the better fan to use?

I was thinking of maybe going for the 3000RPM fan anyway as I thought I would then always be able to push the fans up to their max if I needed any extra power from them. But then again the 2000RPM fans are cheaper and more economical.

Thoughts?

Moving on to radiators now.....

I prefer medium or low profile radiators if possible, but I cannot decide between the radiators I have narrowed down. I cannot truly tell if they are roughly identical or if they are significantly different as their pages on frozencpu.com are rather varied in information.

For the 420mm radiator I was thinking of one of these three radiators:

1) http://www.frozencpu.com/products/23918/ex-rad-706/Blac...

2) http://www.frozencpu.com/products/15009/ex-rad-348/Magi...

3) http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10201/ex-rad-178/Kool...

I was thinking that the Koolance was the best one out of the three there. Am I right?

Would that be the best choice? If not, why? Which of the others are better?

Would they all perform similarly anyway?

The same goes for the 560mm rads I had narrowed down:

1) http://www.frozencpu.com/products/23919/ex-rad-707/Blac...

2) http://www.frozencpu.com/products/13268/ex-rad-258/Cool...

3) http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21867/ex-rad-655/Phob...

4) http://www.frozencpu.com/products/23903/ex-rad-691/Blac...

Except these have mention of fancy sounding things like supercruise and they also have a varying level of detail on their shop pages (one doesn’t even state the number of fins per inch).

And I know I have two rads from the same series by Black Ice. Are they essentially the same, despite their profiles been different?

Which brings me on to my next question: What are the effects of high, medium, low and ulta-low profile rads? What is different between them apart from the lower profile ones needing more static pressure?

Next, would having a set up where there are low RPM/Pressure fans in push and high RPM fans in pull be a worthwhile exercise or a waste of time and energy?

As I would most likely at this time be setting my rads and fans up in push configuration, does that mean that I would have to get shorter screws to hold the radiator to the case whilst the longer screws hold the fans on the rear of the rad? Would the screws I need come with the rads or would I have to buy them?

Or can the screws go all the way through the radiator? I know this is a silly question, and I have heard before that some rads can be damaged by screwing the screws too far in one side, but i want to be sure as I don’t want to find that I haven’t got enough screws.

Help would be greatly appreciated. I have almost completed acquiring the parts and these (plus some sound proofing, fittings and tubing) is all I need to finally have everything I need to start testing and building.

Thanks!

AK

Anyone? please?

Long post indeed, but you never listed what components you actually want to water cool, CPU only?

I'll try to address what I can.

Most radiators the screws will damage fins or tube if too long. Some newer model radiators have a small metal plate beneath the screw holes to prevent this, it's an awesome feature. If screws are included or not varies from radiator to radiator, but most are common thread sizes and you can buy the screws if needed.

You have a caselabs sth10, if your fans ever have to go above 1000rpm you have failed miserably (or the computer is in another room and you don't care about noise)

Thicker radiators tend to have a wider range of performance than thinner radiators, and usually lower flow restriction. If you know what speed/pressure/cfm fans you are going to use, and pick an appropriate slim radiator you will be able to more or less tie the performance of a thicker radiator.

If you go push pull use matching fans. If the fans aren't matched you can have a few problems such as odd harmonics and limited life span.

Without knowing exactly what you plan to cool it's hard to say what would work best with regard to fans and radiators. Quick and dirty estimates for a quiet build is roughly 100w per 120mm worth of radiator, and I can't stress enough that you would have to pay me to put 2k-3k rpm fans in my gaming box, there is no way I would tolerate it otherwise.

Lvcoyote said:

Long post indeed, but you never listed what components you actually want to water cool, CPU only?

Click to expand...

Oops.

I wanted to cool my CPU with a 420mm plus a 560mm. Overkill, really, but in the future when it comes time to upgrade I wanted to be able to include my mobo and possibly my RAM in the loop without having to buy newer, larger rads.

I was also going to cool 3 superclocked 780ti GPUs wth the other two 560mm rads i was thinking of getting.

I havent bought anything yet. I was wanted to know which ones to get before i bought anything.

Supertrucker said:

I'll try to address what I can.

Most radiators the screws will damage fins or tube if too long. Some newer model radiators have a small metal plate beneath the screw holes to prevent this, it's an awesome feature. If screws are included or not varies from radiator to radiator, but most are common thread sizes and you can buy the screws if needed.

You have a caselabs sth10, if your fans ever have to go above 1000rpm you have failed miserably (or the computer is in another room and you don't care about noise)

Thicker radiators tend to have a wider range of performance than thinner radiators, and usually lower flow restriction. If you know what speed/pressure/cfm fans you are going to use, and pick an appropriate slim radiator you will be able to more or less tie the performance of a thicker radiator.

If you go push pull use matching fans. If the fans aren't matched you can have a few problems such as odd harmonics and limited life span.

Without knowing exactly what you plan to cool it's hard to say what would work best with regard to fans and radiators. Quick and dirty estimates for a quiet build is roughly 100w per 120mm worth of radiator, and I can't stress enough that you would have to pay me to put 2k-3k rpm fans in my gaming box, there is no way I would tolerate it otherwise.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

As for noise, part of my plan was to get creating wich sound proofing/dampening material and silicon-rubber mounting covers for fans and rads to eliminate as much noise as possible.

But it was the main reason I have a fan controller and also why i am going for large rads, to keep RPM and noise down as low as possible.

What I was planning was to have the Noctua 2000RPM fans (which arent that loud, actually) turned down to about 1200-1400RPM on these huge rads, but one of things i really wanted to know is if the 2000RPM fans could be turned down either as standard or when connected to a fan controller.

I would have said yes they could be turned down, but I would like someone to confirm please.

Well, if you buy the pwm noctuas and a pwm splitter you can run them all off a pwm enabled motherboard header and have the computer auto adjust them as required.

With certain motherboards, you can even plug g1/4 temp probes into the motherboard and have fan speed adjust based on water temp which gives you the smoothest fan profiles because water temp doesn't shoot up and down the way cpu and gpu Temps do under load. There are also fan controllers that offer this feature.

If you are using a voltage based controller rather than pwm some fans simply don't like being turned down too much so a 3k rpm fan at 1k rpm might end up louder than a native 1k rpm fan due to harmonics or motor clicking.

Supertrucker said:

Well, if you buy the pwm noctuas and a pwm splitter you can run them all off a pwm enabled motherboard header and have the computer auto adjust them as required.

Click to expand...

I have a (now rather outdated) Asus Rampage 4 mobo to be used with an overclocked Ivybridge-E CPU. I would have to check but I do not know if it has PWN headers. But I will be having 15 fans I think in my build (all in push format with the rads) so I sort of have to use a fan controller. And the fan controller I have is not one of the digital ones, it is one with sliders (in hindsight, maybe an oversight?) But i haven't played around with it yet so i dont know if it has any onboard software I could use to further customise it.

Supertrucker said:

With certain motherboards, you can even plug g1/4 temp probes into the motherboard and have fan speed adjust based on water temp which gives you the smoothest fan profiles because water temp doesn't shoot up and down the way cpu and gpu Temps do under load. There are also fan controllers that offer this feature.

Click to expand...

Not sure if the Rampage 4 already has temp probes built in. I'd have to investigate when it comes time to build. I will also have to look into fan controllers that offer that.

However, i was more going for a more disconnected water system with high grade, long lasting equipment that I could use with new hardware when it comes time to upgrade the parts that constantly get made obsolete (Mobo, CPU, RAM, GPU...). So the only thing I would have to upgrade would be them (and possibly the fan controller) and the rest would essentially be replace as required due to malfunction or some other problem.

From what it sounds like you were saying (and i could be wrong) that would be integrating the mobo into the loop?

Supertrucker said:

If you are using a voltage based controller rather than pwm some fans simply don't like being turned down too much so a 3k rpm fan at 1k rpm might end up louder than a native 1k rpm fan due to harmonics or motor clicking.

Click to expand...

I am going to be using this fan controller:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CQRTW...TF8&colid=321PXS959NC1W&coliid=I14ZM38G9D0WHL

Not sure if this is voltage based or PWM. I'd say PWM?

witch rampage 4 do you have? there are a few versions,(according to asus site) a couple i looked at quickly, show that the motherboard is capable of pwm control, i would go with supertucker's advise. But i need to know witch version motherboard u have. my rig is set pwm and i love ai suite does a great job of contoling my fans and pump.

lunatic6593 said:

witch rampage 4 do you have? there are a few versions,(according to asus site) a couple i looked at quickly, show that the motherboard is capable of pwm control, i would go with supertucker's advise. But i need to know witch version motherboard u have. my rig is set pwm and i love ai suite does a great job of contoling my fans and pump.

Click to expand...

Rampage 4 extreme, the largest one i think. Not the black edition though.

Just my luck, got the Rampage 4 just before the black edition came out.

will check when I get home from work, almost positive that board has pwm control for fans.

yes the board supports pwm on all fan channels, if you have not , suggest u download the manual for your board, it can be found here: http://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/RAMPAGE_IV_EXTREME/HelpDesk_Manual/ pick out the proper language you need. Also I would update the bios if the there is one available. the user guide will show you how.

I had trouble trying to fit a 140mm x xxx radiator in the top compartment of the STH10. So consider that. Bottom is for 140mm top is for 120mm. Also note psu location so dont go with 4 1x0mm x 4 rads. even a x3 might be too short if you have an oversized PSU.

For your radiator choices, the Nemesis series have the best scalability across fan rpms. See this roundup
I would consider the SR2s once reviews start showing up as well. The Nemesis GTX has lower restriction that the GTS. The SR2s on PPCs site says they have improved flow capacity. So they may be less restrictive than the GTX.

With the rads you have listed the Hardware Labs are the best performers of the ones you chose. The build quality is also top notch.

kahn1992 said:

Oops.

I wanted to cool my CPU with a 420mm plus a 560mm. Overkill, really, but in the future when it comes time to upgrade I wanted to be able to include my mobo and possibly my RAM in the loop without having to buy newer, larger rads.

I was also going to cool 3 superclocked 780ti GPUs wth the other two 560mm rads i was thinking of getting.

.

Click to expand...

I'd say that's way past overkill.

DaaG said:

I had trouble trying to fit a 140mm x xxx radiator in the top compartment of the STH10. So consider that. Bottom is for 140mm top is for 120mm. Also note psu location so dont go with 4 1x0mm x 4 rads. even a x3 might be too short if you have an oversized PSU.

Click to expand...

Are you sure you were using the 140mm rad mounts? From what i;ve measured, there should be enough space in the STH10 Magnums top quadrant to have 2 rads (a 4x140 and a 3x140) and a PSU.

My PSU isnt huge. Its a Enermax Platimax 1500W, which i'd say is maybe slightly higher than average size, i think.

Does anyone know if the SR2 Versions of the Nemesis rads are available in Britain? Does the performance-pcs.com website ship to Britain?

Also, what about the Black Ice Stealth (GTS) Rads? are they noticeably different to the GTX Rads above?

Are there any comparisons of the optimals fan speeds between the GTS and GTX rads? Both types are advertised as being optimised for below 800RPM<->1200+RPM fans, at least on frozenCPU.

As for the specific radiators you mention above. Take in to account of the overall measurements of said radiator(HWL is good about that) I have not seen any reviews for the SR2 as of yet but from what I can tell is the following:

Nemesis:16FPI
SR2:9FPI, no "30mm" variants
With lower FPI of the SR2 its around 9-10% less dissipation capacity head to head(ex: 120mm v 120mm) against the Nemesis lineup. The GTS are still IMO a decent radiator however they have been eclipsed by the newer radiators from HWL and other manufacturers. I can not say what differences are offhand but there has been several reviews with the new nemesis series beating out competitors and a few have the old GTs/GTx series wrapped in for comparison.

As for PPCS, I don't see why they wouldn't ship overseas providing you pay for shipping and customs charges. In Florida(where PPCS is located) there are several international airports which for example UPS and Fedex use to move their packages around domestic and internationally.

I dont have nearly as massive a case as you, but I am considering the nemesis line quite seriously for a 30x420 and 60x280 for my loop. Previously i was considering the Aplhacool Nexxos series. Finally, the Noctua Industrial fans, I intend to have the ability for a quiet PC and had selected the Industrial PWM 2k, coupled with a fan controller. From the information I could gather the 2000RPM have a low setting of 500RPM in the range of about 10-15Db.