In desperate need of 4 GB GPU

Seems like the Skylake launch is up to 1 year away (so it will still take some time for my next gen), but i need a 4 GB GPU with solid but not truly astounding performance. It should run cool and efficient too, simply the sweet spot.

However, i am surely not gonna pay a lot for a GPU that is barely more performance than my 2.5 year old 7870, it would be hilarious, so the choice is difficult and im somewhat out of idea. AMD may have something new to throw at us rather soon and Nvidia may have new stuff too... there is lot of changes on the market at current time and the choice truly difficult.

Hints or whatelse? Doesnt matter what company or whatever, simply the term "sweet spot" (more or less same TDP such as the old card) and "clearly more powerful than the old card".

I'd probably keep an eye out for the performance numbers of the soon-to-be-released 960.

Hmm yes, i had the 960 in mind but so far hard to get accurate infos regarding this card. Not even sure if there will be 4 GB added in some versions, many different entrys regarding 960. Certainly the 2 GB era is "over" for true gamers... to many games are starting to become serious RAM issues, especially when modding. The 960 should be a true gamer card and not some "minimalistic approach for people that only play on sunday".

I mean, i could still use a 970 GTX and simply downclock a bit in term stuff is becoming to hot/noisy. However, the price is insane for a GPU that is not used at full potential. Most likely the 970 seems to be about same TDP such a 7950, and the 960 is probably in the 7870 range. Usually i am not playing games in need of max performance but with sometimes insane RAM demand (especially Skyrim), when max RAM is used the game will start to freeze (i had the issue on several games already, even WoW)... really annoying and totally unplayable. However, my games usually run fine (40-60 FPS) using a mid range card and most settings at max quality (maybe AA reduced but difference is rather minor), so i rather enjoy the sweet spot with less heat/noise issues. My newest game is "The Legend of Heroes (on PC)", i could probably even run the stuff using IGP So im not truly a performance user but i need the &R/%)ç) RAM!!! Next game is probably Witcher 3*, surely gonna buy it but i think it will run great using a mid range card (960 or 970 @1080P) and almost max settings. Probably one of the most demanding games i may own for this year (next year new PC.., so it doesnt matter).

*Regarding Witcher 3 system specs: I think there is to much speculations and assumptions on the net and probably not a single true spec. Officially the game is still under development and not optimized yet, so there is no official specs until the day of release.

Still have to check realistic TDP (not the paper numbers, 145 W is not realistic at all, its probably above 7870) perhaps the 970 can become another option, but i think the difference to the 960 is minor and the price clearly higher.

*EDIT because price situation has changed*

Another thing to consider is the totaly unknown design (starts to give me headache the constant secretmongers regarding new GPU specs until the day of release.) In term the interface is only 128 bit the 960 GTX is probably a inferior card not powerful enough for 4 GB or so, it may require insane memory OC to make anything out of it and is in need of good memory that can drive up to 8000 MHz (guess Samsung stuff) and good coolers. Nvidia loves to cut the memory interface in order to save up on cost, while AMD rarely is doing it. Cutting a memory interface in any way at the current timeline is in my mind a bad choice and Nvidia may shot themself in the feet doing so (giving room for AMD to strike back)... just as i told already, the 2 GB and "baby memory era" is over. But AMD is not really a option as long as they dont release new stuff because the old series are to much of a hair dryer to me, memory interface clearly supreme... AMD was rarely cheap on that matter.

Another option is to go crazy, taunting anyone by buying a Galax http://www.overclockers.com/Galax-+GTX970HOF-Review and then downclocking it in front of everyones eyes... Oh man... that would be a fun moment. Nah, just kidding, 2x8 PIN = this is totaly freaky and made for ill fated OC and possible TDP of 375 W (single GPU only). On top of that this card is really ugly, a white plastic cover for the card? No way.., great Alu backplate and ugly fan housing.

If the 970 is too expensive, you're basically limited to the 290 and 290x. They do have higher power draw, but performance is definitely where you want to be and you'll get the 4GB of vram.

750ti? But no idea how it compares to a 7870...
EDIT: Its slower... forget that.

The 960 will likely be less than 145W TDP. Consider that the 970 is 150W...but not sure it will come with 4GB either. Its in the rumor mill. AMD is said to release something 2Q 2015, but that won't help you out now.

As far as the memory bandwidth and NVIDIA cutting it down, lol, you can tell at 4K resolutions that the AMD cards close the gap, but by no means is NVIDIA's implementation of a 256bit bus a slouch. They have new compression algorithms that make it perform a lot better than the last generation. So yes it saves money, but I wouldn't call it a shortcoming until you reach 4K res. And even then its not like performance there is terrible, but the performance gap it holds over the 290x just shrinks a bit (See -> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_980/26.html)

960 is released now and it seems like a bad deal, no 4 GB. I was waiting way to long already, and the CHF value vs. EUR/USD has increased, so i may be able to get a 970 GTX for 370+ $ or so, around 20% overall discount compared to around a week ago. So a GTX 970 is now in the affordable price range.

But i dont know which one to pick, it should be able to fit my PC and not overly expensive. I have 10 CHF discount for this vendor.

The cheapest seems to be:
http://www.pcp.ch/product-1a18550308.htm?parnr=12832879

http://www.pcp.ch/product-1a18532066.htm?parnr=12832879
Strix a bit problematic because not a standart 2 slot, not sure it may fit.

http://www.pcp.ch/Gigabyte-GeForce-GTX-970-Windforce-3x-4GB-1a18557665.htm
Great offer too but the lenght is insane, hard to figure out if i can make it fit. I would say 50:50, a matter of "every mm counts". When it comes to sheer cooling, the Windforce is the second most powerful one, beaten only by Inno3D i-Chill which is a huge card and even harder to make it fit.

In general i would enjoy the manufacturers to give very accurate mm values of every card they offer, because obviously nowadays most aftermarket coolers are no standart 2 slot anymore... so we lack a standart.

I agree, 960 seems like a terrible deal.

I'd go with the Asus out of those three. That EVGA is their "low end" option, so it won't be binned well. Same for the Gigabyte. I think you have a better shot at a good overclocker with the Asus.

To me its more important to have good cooling and not raw overclocking, however the Strix is surely a great mix between good binning, good quality and good cooling. Although the big height can become a issue for my SZ77R5. Guess another 50:50 if i can make it fit. All of them are great price for the stuff they got to offer, but i would say the EVGA is the lowest value and the only advantage is that it surely will fit...

I think this one may fit with 90% chance or so... but pretty expensive, dunno if it is worth it. It got improved height but not quite as high as the Strix (gonna check out mm values if i can find).
http://www.pcp.ch/product-1a18533473.htm?parnr=12832879

Binning shimining...

The difference between reference and most of these factory overclocked cards isn't anything that a reference card couldn't reach. And when one talks about binning, its like its the BeezKneezzzz when in reality its not (unless you get something like a HOF/Lightning/Matrix that is WELL over the reference clocks). These cards that are 20-100MHz over reference are nothing.

Almost any card could reach those clocks, nothing new. The open question is if they are binned or not. In my experience most cards are simply random chips without special selection, even the good clocked ones but there could be exceptions. In most terms you simply pay for better cooling and some better components so the card may run more stable... surely worth a bonus.

Should I quote myself? I already said that. Maybe I will say the same thing in a different way...

It takes almost nothing for most cards to reach factory overclocked settings. This magical 'binning' people speak of, people look into it waaaaaaaay too much IMO. So long as its not on a reference based board, you are at the mercy of the silicon lottery as far as how far it will go. Perhaps the Matrix/Lightning/HOF are binned better because their clock speeds are REALLY high over reference, but then again, most times, their ASIC is low which is generally better for LN2 and not air/water overclocking anyway.

Get one that is quiet. Read reviews to see how quiet and enjoy your card.

Ivy said:

To me its more important to have good cooling and not raw overclocking, however the Strix is surely a great mix between good binning, good quality and good cooling. Although the big height can become a issue for my SZ77R5. Guess another 50:50 if i can make it fit. All of them are great price for the stuff they got to offer, but i would say the EVGA is the lowest value and the only advantage is that it surely will fit...

I think this one may fit with 90% chance or so... but pretty expensive, dunno if it is worth it. It got improved height but not quite as high as the Strix (gonna check out mm values if i can find).
http://www.pcp.ch/product-1a18533473.htm?parnr=12832879

Click to expand...

The MSI Gaming cards are supposed to overclock well from what I've seen in reviews, but I don't think it's worth the extra 50 bucks.

EarthDog said:

Binning shimining...

The difference between reference and most of these factory overclocked cards isn't anything that a reference card couldn't reach. And when one talks about binning, its like its the BeezKneezzzz when in reality its not (unless you get something like a HOF/Lightning/Matrix that is WELL over the reference clocks). These cards that are 20-100MHz over reference are nothing.

Click to expand...

I agree, it's basically a wash until you get to those high-end cards (it's definitely true of them, however - my 290X Lightning goes to 1250! ). The "standard" Gigabyte Windforce 970 and EVGA ACX 2.0 both come from product lines where they are at the "bottom of the totem pole", so I'd rather take my chances with a card like the Asus which doesn't have a "big brother".

And if noise is a concern, Ivy, the Asus is the card for you. I think it has the feature where the fans stay off until 50c or something?

Try to find those height measurements on your case. Definitely a valid concern.

Regarding noise, the MSI Gaming 4G and Palit Jestream and Asus Strix are clearly the winners, they all offer 0 fan at idle (zero noise) and at load the lowest noise of all the cards i found, between 35 and 36 dB at 60-65 C. Unfortunately MSI and Palit is very expensive, while the Asus may be good priced but not sure it will fit.

Looking at the temperature, the MSI is the only valid option. The Gigabyte G1 is even better temperature but more noise and may not fit inside case.
http://www.tomshardware.de/nvidia-g...up-vergleichstest,testberichte-241658-21.html

Generally the high VRM temps (everything above 85) is creating headache because i will surely have the VRM 10 C higher than that... and baam... instability may hit me. Maybe the expensive MSI may have good enough VRM and whatever quality so they handle super hot 110+ C without crash or instability.

Judging by the pics/info from this review (http://www.motormice.com/reviews/SZ77R5/settingup.htm), I don't think the Strix or MSI would fit without modification. The reference 680 in that review is ~4.4" and the MSI and Asus 970s are 5.5".

Length-wise, it looks like you're working with about 10-10.5". The Gigabyte G1 is ~12.25", so I think that one is out.

I think that your best bet, given your case, is going to be one of the EVGA cards. They come in at <10" in length and <4.5" in height, fitting perfectly in your case. FTW would be my pick, but several forum members have had luck with the other models in the lineup as well (ATMinside has the ACX 2.0 SC, for example, and recommends it).

I wouldn't concern myself too much with the VRM temps. If your past GPUs haven't had an issue in your case, I doubt the 970s will fair any differently. They'll be on the hot-side, no doubt, but I don't think they'll throttle if you stay at stock clocks.

ninjacore said:

The MSI Gaming cards are supposed to overclock well from what I've seen in reviews, but I don't think it's worth the extra 50 bucks.

Click to expand...

In reviews maybe, in real Gigabyte is better in any version.

The "standard" Gigabyte Windforce 970 and EVGA ACX 2.0 both come from product lines where they are at the "bottom of the totem pole", so I'd rather take my chances with a card like the Asus which doesn't have a "big brother".

Click to expand...

Are you joking here or what ? I had 3x GTX970, 2x G1 1x WF3. WF3 was 85% ASIC and it's about the highest possible ASIC you can find in GTX970. G1 were 62/64% ASIC. The same I see all around the web. Regardless of series you can find good and bad chips. The same in reference series, EVGA or anything else. ASUS can have best chips but is limited by PCB design and 1x 8pin power connector. ASUS cards are throttling faster than some other brands. It's more like a reference card "packed" to a smaller PCB.

And if noise is a concern, Ivy, the Asus is the card for you. I think it has the feature where the fans stay off until 50c or something?

Try to find those height measurements on your case. Definitely a valid concern.

Click to expand...

ASUS seems one of the best if you care about silence. On the other hand most other GTX970 are not so much louder. Even if it's not 0 RPM in idle then you won't hear most of the cards if they're inside the case.

Additionally if you want to put wc then MSI, Palit, Gainward and some other brands have warranty stickers. ASUS probably too. Gigabyte and EVGA are not using stickers ( or I haven't seen any yet ).

VRM temps are not an issue on any cooling.

ninjacore said:

The "standard" Gigabyte Windforce 970 and EVGA ACX 2.0 both come from product lines where they are at the "bottom of the totem pole", so I'd rather take my chances with a card like the Asus which doesn't have a "big brother".

Click to expand...

Woomack said:

Are you joking here or what ? I had 3x GTX970, 2x G1 1x WF3. WF3 was 85% ASIC and it's about the highest possible ASIC you can find in GTX970. G1 were 62/64% ASIC. The same I see all around the web. Regardless of series you can find good and bad chips. The same in reference series, EVGA or anything else. ASUS can have best chips but is limited by PCB design and 1x 8pin power connector. ASUS cards are throttling faster than some other brands. It's more like a reference card "packed" to a smaller PCB.

Click to expand...

I'd stand by what I said. If a particular manufacturer has a "high end card" (like Giga's G1, for example), which requires better chips, it stands to reason that the chips which "don't meet the mark" are used in the "lower-end cards" (the Windforce models). I'm sure there are outliers (G1s that don't clock very well and WFs that clock great), but I believe regression to the mean can explain that away.

Read 700 page thread on OCN or other 200+ page threads and you will see that there are no rules in GTX970. The only limiting factor is your luck and PCB/VRM/power connectors. There are no high or low series in GTX970. There are only reference and almost the same non-reference cards with better cooling or additional 1-2 phases. There are no Matrix, Lightning, Classified etc series.
I can agree that EVGA is picking best chips for Classified series. Maybe also Galax HoF and ASUS Matrix cards have better chips but except that I haven't seen any other series with additionally binned chips by manufacturer.
MSI Lightnings are usually overclocking worse than even regular series ( also my personal luck with 3 Lightnings vs reference cards ), ASUS DCII are generally good but I have seen many average chips too. Gigabyte is probably not binning their chips at all. ASIC is all over the place in every series from reference to SOC.
EVGA has only 1 PCB for GTX970 so they have no higher or lower series at all. I bet they make only mass production and put better or worse cooler.

If you buy GTX970 and think about OC then you check:
1. PCB/VRM design, simply if card can deliver enough power - Gigabyte, MSI, Zotac are best
2. If you can adjust voltages and how high are OCP/OVP limits - all cards are almost the same, Zotac has issues with voltage adjustment
3. Pray for good chip

All other options, clocks, fan speed etc can be adjusted in BIOS or in software.

Woomack said:

Read 700 page thread on OCN or other 200+ page threads and you will see that there are no rules in GTX970. The only limiting factor is your luck and PCB/VRM/power connectors. There are no high or low series in GTX970. There are only reference and almost the same non-reference cards with better cooling or additional 1-2 phases. There are no Matrix, Lightning, Classified etc series.
I can agree that EVGA is picking best chips for Classified series. Maybe also Galax HoF and ASUS Matrix cards have better chips but except that I haven't seen any other series with additionally binned chips by manufacturer.
MSI Lightnings are usually overclocking worse than even regular series ( also my personal luck with 3 Lightnings vs reference cards ), ASUS DCII are generally good but I have seen many average chips too. Gigabyte is probably not binning their chips at all. ASIC is all over the place in every series from reference to SOC.
EVGA has only 1 PCB for GTX970 so they have no higher or lower series at all. I bet they make only mass production and put better or worse cooler.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to read those threads, but since you have, I'll take your word for it and only add my limited personal experience:

I've owned just a single 970, the Gigabyte G1. When overclocked, it is game stable at +150 on the core, boosting to 1540-something Mhz. When I was researching which 970 to pick up, on average, the resources (forums and reviews) I used indicated that folks were having better results overclocking the G1 than the other models from various manufacturers. I saw more instances of 1500+ core clocks on that card, so I went with it.

Were other cards reportedly clocking just as high? Sure.

Did I see as many instances of them doing so? No.

Does that mean the G1 is better and that there aren't simply more people reporting good things about the G1? Nope.

Did I just pay an extra $30 for a backplate in deciding on my G1 over the WF3? Maybe (I actually only paid $300 for mine, so $30 less than the WF )

Am I happy with my G1? Yes.

Are there others who are not. Indubitably.

Woomack said:

If you buy GTX970 and think about OC then you check:
1. PCB/VRM design, simply if card can deliver enough power - Gigabyte, MSI, Zotac are best
2. If you can adjust voltages and how high are OCP/OVP limits - all cards are almost the same, Zotac has issues with voltage adjustment
3. Pray for good chip

All other options, clocks, fan speed etc can be adjusted in BIOS or in software.

Click to expand...

I think this is good advice based on what you've said about all 970s being essentially equal. Thank you.

GB G1 is probably the best GTX970 for OC simply because without mods it has higher power limits than this card actually needs so without mods etc it can overclock 50-100MHz higher than most other cards. Difference between G1 and WF3 is almost only cooler ( G1 is full metal and is glowing while WF3 is plastic and has no backplate ). I was flashing my friend's WF3 with modded G1 BIOS for triple SLI and it was also running best as single card.
Some other cards can overclock high but some simply need more modifications and user's knowledge to make it right. Average user can modify BIOS or flash it from some forums etc. but most users can't see when card is throttling so after OC performance is even worse. Depends from ASIC, these cards need other values in BIOS to keep stability so there is low chance that BIOS published by someone who owns ~70% ASIC card will work on 60 or 80% ASIC cards ( lower or higher voltage requirements, clocks etc. what cause different throttling points/clock tables and some more ).
Memory on all GTX970 has the same specification regardless if it's Hynix or Samsung.

ninjacore said:

Judging by the pics/info from this review (http://www.motormice.com/reviews/SZ77R5/settingup.htm), I don't think the Strix or MSI would fit without modification. The reference 680 in that review is ~4.4" and the MSI and Asus 970s are 5.5".

Length-wise, it looks like you're working with about 10-10.5". The Gigabyte G1 is ~12.25", so I think that one is out.

I think that your best bet, given your case, is going to be one of the EVGA cards. They come in at <10" in length and <4.5" in height, fitting perfectly in your case. FTW would be my pick, but several forum members have had luck with the other models in the lineup as well (ATMinside has the ACX 2.0 SC, for example, and recommends it).

I wouldn't concern myself too much with the VRM temps. If your past GPUs haven't had an issue in your case, I doubt the 970s will fair any differently. They'll be on the hot-side, no doubt, but I don't think they'll throttle if you stay at stock clocks.

Click to expand...

The temperature is important to me because sometimes i have over 30 C room temperature and any weak cooler will simply fail on me. My old 7870 DCII can barely manage it, and i needed to mod the case.

Asus is bigger than MSI. MSI is 13.3 cm and Asus is 14 cm, so thats 7 mm more, a clear difference, it is a very huge distance when it comes to electronics. Reference should be around 11 cm, not sure, but almost any aftermarket card is bigger than the reference design in one or even several spots. Thats why such cards can become a issue and a gamer case need to be far above 2 slot spec in order to be sufficient. It cant truly be diffferent, the very old GPUs 10-15 year ago was able to reach 120 C or so without instability but nowadays most GPUs may crash (the wise geek ones will throttle like mad) at above 100 C and at the same time way more TDP. Anyway, i think a plus of 2.3 cm (MSI) should be possible without mod but a plus of 3 cm (Strix) is definitely to much and may need modification. Additionally the case is full ALU, makes it easy to mod and i am used to mod cases since the existance of nowadays "uber huge coolers".

The Gigabyte G1 seems to be out, thats correct, because i would need to mod the stuff to heavy in order to stick it into the case... to much of hassle.

Regarding cost: MSI Gaming 4GB* is probably 383.60 CHF including taxes, a bit high but still inside green range (below 400).

*Golden Edition is out of question, would cost me at least ~500 USD with import charges (Newegg price is almost free i can tell). But the only difference is a "copper sink" instead of "alu sink", it surely may perform better but it may just be a few C and because of the unnecessary limitations much higher cost. The copper quality is unknown, the most clean copper is almost 2 times better than a clean Alu but the typical industry grade copper is barely better than a clean Alu and the pipes are made with copper for all cards. Some people say it runs at least 5 C cooler or so... which would be huge and a indication of good copper quality. Sad not to see such sinks in regular use because it would make any card with less noise and more OC headroom... out of the box, at a premium price of maybe 20-30 USD (50 USD counts for limited, less scale makes things more expensive). Some robbers are already selling the Golden Edition for 1k USD on Ebay because MSI isnt releasing it in any markets outside US... leaving room for dirty speculations.


EDIT: I was getting MSI Gaming 4GB now for 383.60 CHF = 426.9 USD (including all cost and taxes, of course Newegg is much cheaper but US is always cheaper). I think it will fit but if it doesnt... mod should not be to problematic for the few mm that may be to much. The cheapest 970 GTX i was able to find = noisy and hot running reference card is around 335 CHF = 372 USD (including all cost and taxes) but i think those cards are to much of a hassle because even with "usual ambient of 25 C and good tower case", they may hit 80 C. In may case i have to add at least 20 C for higher ambient and worse case... so the cooling results are impossible for my needs. I need a card that is able to stay below 70 C under "good condition", 25 C ambient and tower.