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Why z170 over x99 or z97?

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bob4933

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Im still bashing my head on the wall over this one...

The build cost of a 5820k based system is near identical to a 6700k based system, both use ddr4... The performance gains of the 6700k vs the 4790k and the cost difference doesn't seem to make a whole bunch of sense either (2-300$ for 5% performance?). I understand for benchmarks and those who ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE the latest and greatest, but is there a particular reason to go skylake? I just dont get it.
 
5820k vs. 6700k, I definitely see your point there (and I'll keep that in mind for the future :)) - EDIT: Motherboard cost is a bit higher on X99... With a quick search, the diff is at least $50, a lot more if you want SFF

6700k vs. 4790k, I would say it's DDR4. Even if, as you say, it's only buying a few percentage points, people are still gonna jump on it. "This one goes to 11." ;)
 
1. There is already a thread similar to this...(I may merge the threads after I confirm/deny subject)
2. Upgrade path... Z170 has one. X99/Z97 does not.
3. The CPU (5820K) costs the same as 6700K right? Z170 boards range from $115 to $400 while X99 is $185 to $550.
3a. Z97/X99 is 5-10% slower per clock.
4. Less potential for X99 to hit 4.5GHz+ than it is for Z170/Z97

So, math time (pricing from newegg.com don't split hairs unless you are going to do the math yourself or expect everyone to have a microcenter near them, LOL). :)

1st board I would touch on Z97 is $95. 4790K costs $340.
1st board I would touch on X99 is $185 (cheapest, actually). 5820K costs $389
1st board I would touch on Z170 is $115 (cheapest, actually). 6700K MSRP is $350.

So...

Z97 = $435
X99 = $574
Z170 = $465

X99 needs (should have) quad channel, so dump another $130 (DDR4 on to that platform). Difference between what I would consider comparable DDR4 v DDR3 speeds in dual channel is ~$40 ($46 - 2133 CL9 vs $85 - DDR4 3K CL15).

So....

Z97 + Ram = ~$480
X99 + Ram = ~$705
Z170 + Ram = ~$550

It should be (have been) obvious that X99 is just a shedload more expensive and shouldn't really be in the conversation honestly unless you can utilize all the cores. Personally, for the small difference in price between Z97 and Z170 ($70) and having 5-10% more performance, I feel the pittance to make the jump is worth it. If one cannot afford the difference, then the Z97 platform is a solid choice. The difference is likely a bit less than you appear to think.
 
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Add to that very few (none?) itx options with X99, and you have two different target markets for X-series and Z-series platforms. Informative, though :thup:
 
ASRock makes an X99 ITX board

With the Narrow 2011-3 socket, which I believe doesn't fully support all of the CPUs, right?

And also, ED, why the heck is X99 already "dead" as far as the upgrade path?! It's been out less than 2 years, hasn't it? They're already planning the next chipset?
 
With the Narrow 2011-3 socket, which I believe doesn't fully support all of the CPUs, right?

And also, ED, why the heck is X99 already "dead" as far as the upgrade path?! It's been out less than 2 years, hasn't it? They're already planning the next chipset?

Fully supports all 2011-3 CPU's from what I've seen, you can double check on their compatibility list though.
Narrow-ILM just means you have to watch what cooler you buy.

As for it being a dead socket, I agree with EarthDog.
It's highly unlikely that Skylake-E will be on X99 and I doubt that Broadwell-E will be worth mentioning.
 
Ty - You make a good point... after thinking a bit about it, Broadwell-E, I believe, will be out on X99 socket 2011-3. That said, there wasn't any(?) IPC performance over Haswell-E so, in the end, I wouldn't consider that an upgrade. Skylake-E will have its own chipset/socket(?).
 
Depending on Your upgrade path for other hardware, Z170 will support (via chipsets) more PCIe lanes which could afford SLI or CF along with PCIe SSDs (plural) or M.2 in RAID. And the MB folks are adding chips for C-type USB connectors as well as support for USB 3.1 v1 and v2. The development of more PCIe devices should follow the availability of the lanes. Toss in the PCM drives that will be coming out next year, which may become a defacto card for the future, and the lanes for traffic will be about like those for the freeway -> build it and they will come.
 
build it and they will come.
I have one word for you... Thunderbolt. I see it was built, but it didn't come! :p

Joking aside, I agree... but I don't imagine PCM drives to be available next year... got any links so I may read up on it? All I recalled was things from 2014, but nothing newer in my quick google foo.
 
I started a thread that initialized as an Intel XPoint reference but that evolved into several vendors' participation in the effort whether by their own research or licensing, several posts with links:

Here
 
from what I can tell, if you have a z97 rig, you stand pat.
if you are building new it's z170 and ddr4.
 
Fully supports all 2011-3 CPU's from what I've seen, you can double check on their compatibility list though.
Narrow-ILM just means you have to watch what cooler you buy.

As for it being a dead socket, I agree with EarthDog.
It's highly unlikely that Skylake-E will be on X99 and I doubt that Broadwell-E will be worth mentioning.

I don't think that X99 is dead as usually enthusiast line of chipsets has longer life than lower series ( up to 5 years ). For every X series chipset were 2 CPU series and in all cases next generation was faster and had additional features. What we got for 1150 ? Z87 and Z97 which were almost the same and Broadwell which on gamer/enthusiast market is total fail.

Haswell-E is totally different than 1150 Haswell. The same Broadwell-E will be totally different than 1150 Broadwell. Maybe Skylake-E will be also on 2011-3 and there is high chance on that as in earlier roadmap Skylake-E was described as next series for X99 boards while there was no Broadwell-E. Later Intel has changed all and Broadwell-E replaced Skylake-E ( maybe only naming but hard to say what we really get ).
Broadwell for 1150 is supporting DDR3 only and is like upgrade for Haswell with better IGP and in lower process while Haswell-E has already DDR4 support and some more , not to mention it doesn't have IGP. Skylake-E probably won't require new socket ( if Intel won't change anything and they are good in that ).
I don't think that Z170 will support more than 4 cores while X99 is already supporting up to 18 cores ( soon should be more as 20+ core Xeons were announced ). Also memory support is better on X99. I mean it works with more RAM and actually max memory clock at 16GB+ RAM is about the same as on Z170 ( maybe Z170 will improve but so far I doubt ). You can push DDR4 to 3800+ on Z170 but only with 2x4GB modules and on most boards it won't work above ~3400 anyway.

Regarding motherboards. Good Z170 board costs about as much as average, but still good for overclocking X99 board. Most features on all X99 boards are the same ( excluding some, the highest and most expensive series ). Of course you can get cheaper Z170 mobo but who will decide on cheap board for i7 6700K ?
Every X99 mobo is actually high end. Not all Z170 boards are really well designed. Even in Maximus Hero ( which I own ) ASUS was cutting costs and it's one of the highest ASUS Z170 boards available. In most brands Z170 boards have similar quality but 20% higher price than Z87/97. All improvements are mainly on paper while end user will barely see them.

Regarding smaller form factors. X99 ITX boards are really expensive and have some limitations like 2 channel memory but you can get micro ATX ASRock in pretty good price with all features ( except less pcie slots ) of full ATX board. For Z170 you will find cheaper standard series motherboards but everything from higher series will cost about as much as X99 ( I mean boards like Maximus Impact ).

At the end I would say that Z170 is good option if you can live with 4 core 6600K or lower CPU but if you want higher performance then adding these $100-150 to 6 core X99 platform is better idea.

Depending on Your upgrade path for other hardware, Z170 will support (via chipsets) more PCIe lanes which could afford SLI or CF along with PCIe SSDs (plural) or M.2 in RAID. And the MB folks are adding chips for C-type USB connectors as well as support for USB 3.1 v1 and v2. The development of more PCIe devices should follow the availability of the lanes. Toss in the PCM drives that will be coming out next year, which may become a defacto card for the future, and the lanes for traffic will be about like those for the freeway -> build it and they will come.

There are barely any devices for USB 3.1 and barely any can reach USB 3.0 bandwidth not to mention anything higher.
PCIe lanes are more like a theory. You can use as many graphics cards as on Z87/97. The only difference is that you can use one more M.2/PCIe SSD but who will actually make RAID on 2x M.2 cards ( if mobo will support it and I don't think you will find it in cheap boards ).

There are still no SATA Express drives and next connectors seem useless for 99% users. When all that will be on the market then we will see new chipset or new connector type.

Regarding new memory type ( XPoint ). This is only in plans for future. Releasing it for mass market will take next 3 years+. Micron was working on it 2 years ago and since then we only saw news that Intel and Micron are still working on that.

Ty - You make a good point... after thinking a bit about it, Broadwell-E, I believe, will be out on X99 socket 2011-3. That said, there wasn't any(?) IPC performance over Haswell-E so, in the end, I wouldn't consider that an upgrade. Skylake-E will have its own chipset/socket(?).

Broadwell gave up to ~10% improvement over Haswell at the same clock but base clock is generally lower and there is low max OC so in reviews comparing both CPUs ( like 5775C vs 4770K or 4790K ) at stock you can't see that difference. Still it doesn't matter much as barely anyone will buy Broadwell for desktop.
 
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The biggest problem with Broadwell right now is the price. Hard to justify like $600 for a CPU on par with the one I can get for half that...
 
Broadwell gave up to ~10% improvement over Haswell at the same clock
Isn't that is when applications use the eDRAM though (which is not all the time)?

I thought MSRP was $366 or something on the 5770c?
 
Nope, general CPU performance is higher than on Haswell the same as any new generation speed up ~0-15%. eDRAM is something else and boosts IGP performance much more comparing to older IGP. Problem is only that base clock of i5/i7 Broadwell is lower than i5/i7 Haswell or Skylake but you can't see it directly in reviews etc. where everything is tested on stock.
Many users were counting that Broadwell will OC better so they would have good option for upgrade on 1150 but it stuck at 4.2-4.4GHz max regardless of voltage. So maxed out Broadwell make slightly higher clock than 4790K on stock. There are no enthusiasts who would pay so much for barely overclocking CPU and all others can live with lower clocked series without OC.

I just don't think that Broadwell-E will be even close to 1150 Broadwell as it won't have IGP, will have higher capacity cache, more PCIe lanes different memory controller and generally will be different CPU. I also don't think it will be limited in OC so much but hard to say as we have only seen it on paper so far and in last 1-2 years Intel slides with roadmap and other info have changed 2-3 times.

Back to the topic, for me it looks like skylake can be better option for upgrade for all who are only playing games and will think faster about next upgrade ( let's say in 1-2 years ). Haswell-E is better option for all who wish to stick to the platform for longer and use it for work, rendering or other things but also gaming.
Looking at future upgrade chances, both platforms are at the same stage ( even though X99 was released last year ) and looking at last generations we can count on as many new CPU cores for each of them ( usually it's 2 and then new socket ).

I just think that many people believe too much in everything what marketing provides. Skylake isn't anything really new or future proof from user's point of view. For end users it's like slightly improved Haswell with DDR4 support but it barely matters.
If you want to buy new PC then of course pick Skylake or Haswell-E but if you have something not so old then first check if you really need the upgrade. I'm not saying about extreme overclockers or other more demanding users who will buy new platform anyway.
 
Im still bashing my head on the wall over this one...

The build cost of a 5820k based system is near identical to a 6700k based system, both use ddr4... The performance gains of the 6700k vs the 4790k and the cost difference doesn't seem to make a whole bunch of sense either (2-300$ for 5% performance?). I understand for benchmarks and those who ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE the latest and greatest, but is there a particular reason to go skylake? I just dont get it.

ive been looking into this also since im upgrading from amd to intel and i decided that ill go with z97 due to the fact i cannot bring my self to spend that extra money i.e 200 / 300 GBP on a 6% +/- on z170 depending on what you do tbh and ive spent enough on going from amd to intel z97 so i wont be upgrading for a while after i finished my z97 build but then again its each to there own and what you want to gain or not gain
 
If buying new, and for gamer/OC'ing then Skylake. If buying for rendering/workstation first and gaming second, then X99. The choice to go with Skylake as a gamer vs Z97 is really, for me resale value and general rule of thumb to always buy the latest gen "new" for builds.
 
I just jump from an i5-2500K to the Skylake i7-6700K. For me, the X99 was interesting, but I don't really use the extra cores as a software dev / gamer. The price wasn't clearly going to be much different, and for some purposes the new Skylakes under Windows 10 can have huge performance jumps over previous gen chips. Plus USB 3.1C is an absolute must for me.
 
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