WATERCOOL Hardware Rep available! Come in and chat with me!

Blaylock said:

LawShadow if you don't mind me chiming in, I would recommend avoiding any dyes in your loop. Many will clog up your blocks and at a minimum will stain any clear acrylic in your loop i.e. reservoir, block covers etc.

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WATERCOOL-Jakob said:

Oh god yes! I do realize that dyes look great, and I love to see them in Casemods and Showcases and the likes. But for everyday use? I would recommend to stay clear of them. Pretty much all of them leave stains, and a lot of them do clog up...

As far as I know, it's less problematic with hardtubes, because a lot of the clogging stems from washed out plasticizers from the soft tubes. But my personal general rule of thumb? Just use coloured tubes.

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Always great to hear from a company rep because you sure as hell won't hear it from the others. I mean they do sell dyes and all.

Blaylock said:

LawShadow if you don't mind me chiming in, I would recommend avoiding any dyes in your loop. Many will clog up your blocks and at a minimum will stain any clear acrylic in your loop i.e. reservoir, block covers etc.

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Hi, no problem chiming in

And yeah i never used dye nor will i ever...to many horror stories. I will stick to the recommended coolant as what the manufacturer advises.

LawShadow said:

Hi, no problem chiming in

And yeah i never used dye nor will i ever...to many horror stories. I will stick to the recommended coolant as what the manufacturer advises.

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If you want color, use colored tubing

WATERCOOL-Jakob said:

I used only Copper blocks for a long period of time and am using both nickel plated and pure copper blocks. I use IP because I'm also using one Alphacool Cape Cora, which is a full passive radiator. Sadly, it is made from aluminium, so it poses a real threat to any copper component without a powerful corrossion inhibitor. But yes, me personally, I can fully recommend IP with distilled water.

If you are smart(er than me), you stay clear from aluminium components and should be happy with pretty much any aftermarket coolant. They all differ by very small margins, if at all...

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Hi,

So you are using Innovatek Protect IP is there a difference with just "Innovatek Protect"?
How is the viscosity of the water with IP?

I have used Koolance blocks with their recommended pre mix coolant and i can vouch it does a really good job. My secondary system has been running for 3.5 years and i only changed the coolant once after 2 years. I opened the cpu block and i was shocked how utterly clean it was no crap no oxidation nothing as if almost brand new including all my fittings that i used in that rig from Koolance and Bitspower all as if never used brand new....Heck even my Primochill Advanced LTR Black has no signs of plactisizer even after 3.5 years.

I made a thread with pics but good news doesnt attract to many people...
http://www.overclock.net/t/1606466/my-koolance-cpu-380i-after-3-years

My main gaming rig i tear apart every 1 year to 14 months and they are clean every time i open up the blocks. However in my first time ever wc rig i used full nickel plated blocks with distilled and silver killcoils and after a year the block had first signs of oxidation and discoloration ive learned from my mistakes maybe thats why people recommend changing coolant (distilled water only) every 6 months.

Since im eye candying the Heatkiller IV for both cpu and gpu i want the best coolant the stronger the anti oxidation of the coolant the better so far i think its either Innovatek Protect or Koolance pre mix coolant (clear).

And no if you use strong coolant which is designed for mix metals including aluminium like IP i see no issue with that you done your home work

- - - Updated - - -

Nebulous said:

If you want color, use colored tubing

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Hi,

Thats the whole plan in my 7 years of water cooling colored tubing all the way. And now il use EK-ZMT or Tygon Norprene R6016 cant decide which one heard some anecdotes about norprene staining blocks but nothing so far in regards of EK-ZMT.

LawShadow said:

Hi,

So you are using Innovatek Protect IP is there a difference with just "Innovatek Protect"?
How is the viscosity of the water with IP?

Click to expand...

Actually, I thought the one is simply the abbrevation of the other...
Viscosity is fine. I use it in a 3:1 ratio (which is their recommended ratio), and you can feel that the fluid is a little bit... smeary? greasy? I don't know the exactly right english wording here, I'm sorry. But yeah, when you rub some of the fluid between two fingers, you can feel that it's not pure water.

I have used Koolance blocks with their recommended pre mix coolant and i can vouch it does a really good job. My secondary system has been running for 3.5 years and i only changed the coolant once after 2 years. I opened the cpu block and i was shocked how utterly clean it was no crap no oxidation nothing as if almost brand new including all my fittings that i used in that rig from Koolance and Bitspower all as if never used brand new....Heck even my Primochill Advanced LTR Black has no signs of plactisizer even after 3.5 years.

Click to expand...

I don't know their coolant personally, but given the ingredients I could find on the internet, it's pretty much the same stuff as all the others: mainly glycol. So yeah, no surprise it works fine

My main gaming rig i tear apart every 1 year to 14 months and they are clean every time i open up the blocks. However in my first time ever wc rig i used full nickel plated blocks with distilled and silver killcoils and after a year the block had first signs of oxidation and discoloration ive learned from my mistakes maybe thats why people recommend changing coolant (distilled water only) every 6 months.

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I wrote so often about those kill coils it starts to get tiring. Please let me insert a quote of myself from multiple other threats:

Silver is a noble metal adding a LOT corrossion potential against all less noble metals. In a water cooling loop, this means that copper, brass (a little more) and nickel (a LOT) suffer from corrosion, caused solely by the silver you voluntarily added to your loop.

Frankly, I don't understand the fear of algae that the american community still has. In Europe, nearly noone uses silver or other specialiced biocides anymore, and with good reasoning: bio infestations were a big problem in the beginning of watercooling (read: last century!), when people used open buckets with tap water as heat dispensers. Obviously, these were gateways for all kind of biological entities. Nowadays, you only need to follow three simple rules:
- wash all components thoroughly before connecting them to your loop (so you don't bring any unwanted guest to your loop)
- use a closed loop (so you don't have any gateways for later visitors) (pretty much every loop nowadays follows this rule by default)
- use distilled water, not tap water (so any theoretical possible algae finds nothing to nuture on)

I have never seen a loop that followed those three very simple rules that had any bio infestation at all. And if you still feel unsafe, for gods sake use a standard corrosion inhibitor if you want to (good examples: all premixes by well known watercooling manufacturers, Innovatek Protect and rebrands, car antifreeze G48). They are all based on glycol, which is extremely toxic to every kind of algae we know. So as a side effect, they all function as a biocide. There is literaly not one argument in favor of silver kill coils that isn't HEAVILY outweighed by the risks those things pose to your loop.

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And if you don't trust my word for it, please have a look at this scientific paper our competitor EK published back in 2011. Please, people, listen up if different and competing companys all tell you the one same thing: silver is, on the one hand, extremely destructive to all other metal components in your loop while, on the other hand, grants no real world benefit. Just stop using it.

Jacob, would this be ok to use and how long could I leave the liquid in there before flushing or a complete tear down for cleaning? Also, is this a corrosive inhibitor and algea killer?

Jakob, that is an outstanding report from EK. I do have some questions and concerns pertaining to this report. I understand that you or Watercool did not perform the study, and I also understand that you may or may not have the answers. But I would like to discussing and maybe we can come up with some logical solutions.

First, the report shows a higher concentration of Barium (Ba) than Silver (Ag) of up to six times the amount in some tests. Barium is also the lowest standard electrode potential of all the metals found in the spectrum analysis. Is this a non-issue because of it's lower EP or could the Barium be the deposits on the Nickel that begins the corrosion process.

Next, there was no mention of how old the distilled water was in the loop. We know that over time the water will build up IONs that will eventually "Serve as an electrolyte". So a lack of maintenance could be the root cause of the corrosion and the Silver could simply be an accelerant.

Finally, With their test study at the end of the report there was no mention of Silver used in their loop but the addition of copper sulfate pentahydrate to create an acidic solution. With the Nickel plating completely corroding away seems to verify my theory that it was the acidic or ionized water that caused the corrosion. The three elements necessary for galvanic corrosion existed.

In my old loop I had a full copper CPU block and 2x Swiftech rads (brass assumed). I've always used distilled water with a Silver coil and replaced the water every 6 months or so. Is it possible I haven't seen corrosion on my CPU block because it's full copper? Do you think it's possible that corrosion could be taking place inside the brass radiator? There's no way to really see inside it. Finally, I've recently added 2x Nickel plated Copper GPU blocks to the loop. Now that I have the Nickel Copper in the loop I am concerned about the results of the test above and looking forward to your feedback.

Thanks

As much as I love distilled water and silver kill coils, I'm starting to get a pet peeve with oxidization or in other words the starting point of gates to hell. Even expert guru Martin had distilled and silver in his system for a few years and had no issues. My only issue I have is the darn copper CPU blocks look like hell after a while. I'd rather spend the extra few bucks and call it a day. I just want to buy the right stuff and that isn't too hard on my pumps.

GTXJackBauer said:

Jacob, would this be ok to use and how long could I leave the liquid in there before flushing or a complete tear down for cleaning? Also, is this a corrosive inhibitor and algea killer?

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I haven't tried AC Double Protect myself, but from all I know and heard from other people, it is an absolute premium fluid and should serve all your purposes absolutely satisfying.

Blaylock said:

Jakob, that is an outstanding report from EK. I do have some questions and concerns pertaining to this report. I understand that you or Watercool did not perform the study, and I also understand that you may or may not have the answers. But I would like to discussing and maybe we can come up with some logical solutions.

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Discussing is why I'm here, so let's do this But please keep in mind that I'm not a chemist myself, so my understanding of these processes is on a very low amateur level

First, the report shows a higher concentration of Barium (Ba) than Silver (Ag) of up to six times the amount in some tests. Barium is also the lowest standard electrode potential of all the metals found in the spectrum analysis. Is this a non-issue because of it's lower EP or could the Barium be the deposits on the Nickel that begins the corrosion process.

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Please see page 15 of the report. They explain that the Barium probably came from dyes.

Next, there was no mention of how old the distilled water was in the loop. We know that over time the water will build up IONs that will eventually "Serve as an electrolyte". So a lack of maintenance could be the root cause of the corrosion and the Silver could simply be an accelerant.

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Yes and no. Yes, even a closed loop with distilled water "washes out" ions from every metal surface it touches and thus, the distilled water becomes electrolytic after some time. Yes, you can prevent the accumulation of ions by completly draining and refilling your loop from time to time. But be aware of the very high electrode potential of silver versus every other standard material in a loop: a loop containing silver will trigger the corrossive processes at a way smaller overall amount of available ions.

Finally, With their test study at the end of the report there was no mention of Silver used in their loop but the addition of copper sulfate pentahydrate to create an acidic solution. With the Nickel plating completely corroding away seems to verify my theory that it was the acidic or ionized water that caused the corrosion. The three elements necessary for galvanic corrosion existed.

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Yeah, I don't know the context this report was published in. But to my understanding, they were first examining corroded blocks that were probably sent in by a customer. Those are (in my understanding) the blocks #1 to #4. These 4 samples were analyzed in the explanation on page 15-17. Then, they started an separated test where they wanted to find out the effect of copper sulfate, probably because a lot of people used that stuff back then. So, the test sample #5 has nothing to do with the samples 1-4, and while the samples 1-4 were victims to silver, the test #5 did not check for silver, but for copper sulfate.

In my old loop I had a full copper CPU block and 2x Swiftech rads (brass assumed). I've always used distilled water with a Silver coil and replaced the water every 6 months or so. Is it possible I haven't seen corrosion on my CPU block because it's full copper? Do you think it's possible that corrosion could be taking place inside the brass radiator? There's no way to really see inside it. Finally, I've recently added 2x Nickel plated Copper GPU blocks to the loop. Now that I have the Nickel Copper in the loop I am concerned about the results of the test above and looking forward to your feedback.

Thanks

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First, the most radiators nowadays use copper pipes and brass prechambers. Some cheaper models also use brass tubing, but the industry standard shifted to copper tubes ~8-6 years ago. But yes, in every radiator I know there also are brass components. Btw, the most fittings are made from brass, too, and then plated. When the plating is scratched (which can easily happen by simply screwing the fitting into something metallic, like a metal CPU block or pretty much all radiators), the brass also comes in contact with the fluid.
Now, let's take a look back at the bottom of page 15 of the EK report. You can see the different electrode potentials of the different materials there. And as a rule of thumb, one can say that the higher the difference in potentials, the more brutal the effects of corrossion are. So you see that pure copper has only little to fear from silver. Yes, even copper is the victim of corrossion to silver, but only to a small margin. Brass on the other hand is an alloy formed from copper and zinc, and you can see that pure zinc has a very big difference in potentials. However, when bound in an alloy with copper, the zinc is kinda protected a little bit by the copper. So, given that you changed your fluid regularly, one could assume that the amount of corrossion that might have happened to the brass is rather smallish.
But, to be fair: you shouldn't be worried about leaks. It would take a very long time to corrode a usual thickness pipe so far that its structural integrity is in danger. The biggest problem with corrossion for most people is the ruined look of their components, and to a way smaller degree, that finer structures can get clogged by corrossion deposits.

As much as I love distilled water and silver kill coils, I'm starting to get a pet peeve with oxidization or in other words the starting point of gates to hell. Even expert guru Martin had distilled and silver in his system for a few years and had no issues. My only issue I have is the darn copper CPU blocks look like hell after a while. I'd rather spend the extra few bucks and call it a day. I just want to buy the right stuff and that isn't too hard on my pumps.

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And there you have it. It's not a problem of color or something: this "looking like hell" is corrossion. Your blocks will look like untouched-out-of-the-box when you start using any corrossion inhibitor...

WATERCOOL-Jakob said:

Actually, I thought the one is simply the abbrevation of the other...
Viscosity is fine. I use it in a 3:1 ratio (which is their recommended ratio), and you can feel that the fluid is a little bit... smeary? greasy? I don't know the exactly right english wording here, I'm sorry. But yeah, when you rub some of the fluid between two fingers, you can feel that it's not pure water.


I don't know their coolant personally, but given the ingredients I could find on the internet, it's pretty much the same stuff as all the others: mainly glycol. So yeah, no surprise it works fine


I wrote so often about those kill coils it starts to get tiring. Please let me insert a quote of myself from multiple other threats:

And if you don't trust my word for it, please have a look at this scientific paper our competitor EK published back in 2011. Please, people, listen up if different and competing companys all tell you the one same thing: silver is, on the one hand, extremely destructive to all other metal components in your loop while, on the other hand, grants no real world benefit. Just stop using it.

Click to expand...

Hi thank you for the informative reply much appreciated.

I think i know what coolant to use with your brand of blocks il go ahead and use Innovatek Protect concentrate.

Thanks again for the help.

GTXJackBauer said:

As much as I love distilled water and silver kill coils, I'm starting to get a pet peeve with oxidization or in other words the starting point of gates to hell. Even expert guru Martin had distilled and silver in his system for a few years and had no issues. My only issue I have is the darn copper CPU blocks look like hell after a while. I'd rather spend the extra few bucks and call it a day. I just want to buy the right stuff and that isn't too hard on my pumps.

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Hi according to my research,

Why not have a look at Innovatek Protect concentrate from their site it has been developed with strong ant oxidation in mind because their coolant has been labelled save to use with even aluminium in ones loop together with copper.

Or use Koolance 702 Liquid Coolant, High-Performance, Colorless ive been using that for years and it really does its job so well as you can see in one of the links i posted here with pics as for the pump no issue at all my secondary pc which the pump (Aquastream XT) goes through 3 waterblocks and a 480 rad no problems with flow.

Both Innovatek Protect and Koolance pre mix coolant can be used for atleast 2 years before changing coolant is recommended. However there are other brands of pre mix coolant but they recommend a change of coolant every 9 or 12 months maybe less potent then the above coolants...?

Just my 2 cents

You folks have had great conversation. The thread has been painless pretty much, thank you all.

Makes me think. A bit of evil in a loop makes it even less an issue? Next time if ever I'll think about it.

One thing.... I heard that many anti-freezes have moved to another chemical (not glycoal?) that isn't evil to bugs in the loop.

Great discussion, thanks everyone.

Surprise me with your ideas and thoughts about reservoirs! And we'll see, maybe someone comes up with something we never even thought about...?

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We all know the end result in any cooling system is the ambient temp.

I'm inquiring today about a chiller reservoir. This type has been created before with little success. So perhaps a reservoir that can be modified to accommodate a TEC?

Generally most reservoirs are built of acrylics. Unfortunately this type is an insulator. But what if one side was implemented with a decent copper plate with a little surface area to the inside of the reservoir? This would create an ability to implement a chilling device such as a TEC or perhaps even a small SS unit head.

The goal is always for lower temps and higher clocks. Will we see a company implement chilling devices on the liquid cooling hardware?

Or perhaps chilled radiators? Maybe similar to these in the link? http://tetech.com/product-category/liquid-coolers/

Many people shy away from such chilling. Most Peltiers have around a 200,000 hour life span. So failure rate Can be low if properly used. My peltier is about 5 years old. I've used it on a good number of occasions. Took a 2800+ Palermo to 93% OC while chilling...On a standard liquid loop, this same chip was only good for 2.6-2.8ghz respectively.

Is it possible to create such availability to implement chilling on the fly? Could such a thing become mainstream?

What fluids would be good for chilling?

Note: Not looking for sub 0. Looking to achieve sub ambient......

Again, thanks.

This only needs to happen to you once and you'll never use silver kill coils again!

The coil on the left had a serious reaction in my system the coil on the right had never been used, any nickel plating in my system was showing the same color transfer, it was like it was being plated with copper.

My initial coolant setup was 100% clear I had no dye in it, I looked at my tubing at the graphics card on the 2nd day of operation just double checking for any leaks and the coolant was a greenish blue, I immediately was WTF!?

I looked at the reservoir and saw the kill coil exactly like you see it in the picture plus the return injection tube was completely copper colored along with any nickel plated fittings in the loop.

I immediately shut down the system drained and cleaned everything!

I had an EVGA GTX Titan Hydro Copper graphics card and I was concerned about it because it is chrome plated inside, so I took it apart and inspected inside and there was no affect on the chrome inside the water block.

So obviously the effect was reacting with the nickel plating.

I thoroughly cleaned the reservoir, water pump, and the graphics block, and completely replaced all the tubing runs.

I now run 100% steam distilled water and biocide, (Copper Sulfate), I'll never run a kill coil again!

As copper is used as a foundation layer in chrome plating, I'd have to question the quality of the chrome. The electrolysis induced metal transfer shouldn't have happened that fast. While there may have been no visible effect on the chrome, for what you describe to have happened in two days indicates (to me, anyway) that the chrome was thin (porous) and/or not correctly bonded to the nickel layer underneath or the chrome above it. IMO.

ShrimpBrime said:

We all know the end result in any cooling system is the ambient temp.

I'm inquiring today about a chiller reservoir. This type has been created before with little success. So perhaps a reservoir that can be modified to accommodate a TEC?

Generally most reservoirs are built of acrylics. Unfortunately this type is an insulator. But what if one side was implemented with a decent copper plate with a little surface area to the inside of the reservoir? This would create an ability to implement a chilling device such as a TEC or perhaps even a small SS unit head.

The goal is always for lower temps and higher clocks. Will we see a company implement chilling devices on the liquid cooling hardware?

Or perhaps chilled radiators? Maybe similar to these in the link? http://tetech.com/product-category/liquid-coolers/

Many people shy away from such chilling. Most Peltiers have around a 200,000 hour life span. So failure rate Can be low if properly used. My peltier is about 5 years old. I've used it on a good number of occasions. Took a 2800+ Palermo to 93% OC while chilling...On a standard liquid loop, this same chip was only good for 2.6-2.8ghz respectively.

Is it possible to create such availability to implement chilling on the fly? Could such a thing become mainstream?

What fluids would be good for chilling?

Note: Not looking for sub 0. Looking to achieve sub ambient......

Again, thanks.

Click to expand...

Great ideas you have but you'll find yourself in a very small minority group that have the drive, ambition, and tenacity, to go down this type of cooling road so I suggest gleaning the information you need to make your own chilled water cooling solution.

It is definitely possible but you're inquiring within the traditional cooling realm and you need to inquire and learn from those actually doing it, I have been running below ambient chilled water cooling way over 4 years now.

The project has changed and matured over the years as things were discovered to improve it you can click the link in my sig to see where it is now.

I run below ambient coolant temperature but above the condensation forming temperature zone, many think condensation starts forming immediately upon going below ambient but that is not true.

There would still be some possible below ambient in the worst case dew point situations, in my situation I normally run 15c below ambient which is a 10c coolant temperature so in my case ambient is really irrelevant.

It allows a higher CPU overclock than ambient cooling does, and isn't that what we do here anyway, Overclock.

The higher stable CPU overclock is my reasoning for even doing it.

Alaric said:

As copper is used as a foundation layer in chrome plating, I'd have to question the quality of the chrome. The electrolysis induced metal transfer shouldn't have happened that fast. While there may have been no visible effect on the chrome, for what you describe to have happened in two days indicates (to me, anyway) that the chrome was thin (porous) and/or not correctly bonded to the nickel layer underneath or the chrome above it. IMO.

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The chrome was not affected at all there was no evidence of deterioration or chrome failure to even expose the copper underneath the surface layer.

The pump was a Swiftech MCP655 variable speed D5, so it was not a situation that the pump was submerged in coolant like the XSPC with the pump inside the reservoir.

There was no electric current being passed through the coolant to support a plating process so it had to be a dissimilar metal reaction of some kind with the catalyst being the Citric Acid suggested by Watercool to run with distilled water in the Watercool MO-RA3 radiator.

Until I saw that suggestion from Watercool to use Citric Acid in distilled water I had never heard of that before, my mistake was assuming a company like Watercool would know what's best for their radiator.

Which may be great for the Watercool MO-RA3 alone but not necessarily great for the other metals in the loop, especially when a silver kill coil was dropped in the reservoir!

watercool.de/sites/default/files/downloads/MA_MO-RA3_A5m.pdf Scroll down to #8 General Tips

So since this is the Watercool Reps thread, how about it Mr. Rep, any other problems related to the adding of the citric acid suggestion?

I'll never add citric acid again and I do not suggest anyone else do it either.

find yourself in a very small minority group

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Been there for years. I know of maybe 3 or 4 people that de-lid and run soldered processors.

Your project is impressive to say the least! I have seen this thread at OCN before too!

But you started this from scratch and totally modded. I figured with the was HW that could easily implement chilling, people wouldn't have to mod their brains out like you and I have done through the years, it may become a more common place for people to try something new.... even though most people fear new things (ZEN) and may even just simply dislike change in itself.

Only have ideas at this point man. No time for it myself any more really to be doing mods or even simply benching for my team.

ShrimpBrime said:

Been there for years. I know of maybe 3 or 4 people that de-lid and run soldered processors.

Your project is impressive to say the least! I have seen this thread at OCN before too!

But you started this from scratch and totally modded. I figured with the was HW that could easily implement chilling, people wouldn't have to mod their brains out like you and I have done through the years, it may become a more common place for people to try something new.... even though most people fear new things (ZEN) and may even just simply dislike change in itself.

Only have ideas at this point man. No time for it myself any more really to be doing mods or even simply benching for my team.

Click to expand...

I experimented close to a year some ideas worked, some didn't work and had to be chocked up to a lesson learned the hard way!

Sometimes that is a bitter pill to swallow when time and money has been invested to no usable resolve, but knowledge was gained along the way and that was worth it!

If you have some ideas you want to share PM me as I am presently working on shrinking my chilled water cooling down to a much smaller size that can hopefully accomplish the same end results.

If you have some ideas of things I've already tried, I'll share what happened, as the thread only covers the successful end results, not the road it took to get there.

Silver Surfer said:

This only needs to happen to you once and you'll never use silver kill coils again!

The coil on the left had a serious reaction in my system the coil on the right had never been used, any nickel plating in my system was showing the same color transfer, it was like it was being plated with copper.

My initial coolant setup was 100% clear I had no dye in it, I looked at my tubing at the graphics card on the 2nd day of operation just double checking for any leaks and the coolant was a greenish blue, I immediately was WTF!?

I looked at the reservoir and saw the kill coil exactly like you see it in the picture plus the return injection tube was completely copper colored along with any nickel plated fittings in the loop.

I immediately shut down the system drained and cleaned everything!

I had an EVGA GTX Titan Hydro Copper graphics card and I was concerned about it because it is chrome plated inside, so I took it apart and inspected inside and there was no affect on the chrome inside the water block.

So obviously the effect was reacting with the nickel plating.

I thoroughly cleaned the reservoir, water pump, and the graphics block, and completely replaced all the tubing runs.

I now run 100% steam distilled water and biocide, (Copper Sulfate), I'll never run a kill coil again!

View attachment 182627

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Wondering. Where did you get the coil from? The ones I have used were pure silver, all the way through. Yours is silver plated copper.