[Adak]

I've used Google translate to chat with the TSC! guys in the past. You won't be able to understand a good deal of what they have to say, because they use a lot of terms that Google won't translate well, but they will be able to understand what you translate into Russian, from Google's service.

And I agree, they will want to race, if I know them!

[Macaholic]

BOSUN is also a member here. You might want to contact him here as well, Adak. Of course, he has not been active around these forums since January.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Macaholic

BOSUN is also a member here. You might want to contact him here as well, Adak. Of course, he has not been active around these forums since January.

PM sent to Bosun, here.

[Xavier Zepherio]

I posted at TSC as well

[Adak]

Good.

Have all the teams from the 2011 CC been contacted with this, now?

[Xavier Zepherio]

Ive posted at Custom Bit-tech - but mods are real slow at posting my message (since Im too new)

and I have no PM priveleges yet

so they be the only team not informed yet (I just checked their CC thread -my post is still not up)

These have been informed
OC
OCN,
EVGA,
OCAU
TSC,
HWC
TPU (I just posted)

ones that are ?
Custom Bit tech (posted - but waiting)
MPC(but you were doing that one)

That be all nine - correct

[Adak]

I have PM'd their CC captain with the link to the format we're proposing. He has stated in the forum, that their team will not race this year. I have asked him to look it over however, since this format if successful, might well be used in future CC's.

Xavier, please note that anything to be approved for Overclockers.com, will need to be approved by our CC captain, and that hasn't happened yet.

[Xavier Zepherio]

What if some of the teams want a modified formula for the handicap?

I talked to zodac maybe we can use one and use the contest to test some out simultaneously

it's something we would have to consider

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Xavier Zepherio

What if some of the teams want a modified formula for the handicap?

I talked to zodac maybe we can use one and use the contest to test some out simultaneously

it's something we would have to consider

Remember that time is short! You can't expect all teams to be as responsive as you'd like.

1) If this format or points formula is unfair or unclear, then say EXACTLY what the problem is. If there's a problem, let's solve it!

There's no problem with analyzing "what if" from any previous or future CC, but there can only be ONE official points formula per CC.

2) For the Handicap bracket, it's very difficult to imagine a more fair or more motivating handicap, than basing it off that teams prior performance, in the CC.

3) For the straight (unlimited) bracket, it seems it couldn't be more fair than straight points, could it?

I know for the Handicap bracket points, I didn't answer every question. I thought the nuances of it should be worked out by the CC team captains. I will be happy to work out the details, if needed. Fair & simple - that's the key principles here.

I believe this format, and these point equations are pretty much like a very round ball. It will be VERY difficult to have the team captains somehow make the ball, "more round", by adding a bit to it, or taking a bit off it.

It's already *round*, imo.

But if they have a concern, post it and let's solve it.

[Xavier Zepherio]

seems my Bit-tech post still haven't clear Moderation yet

I don't expect much yet.. it's the long weekend and Easter

still haven't got any posts replys yet.

no one has commented other than zodac wanting more detail and to post it on the CC forums

I keep looking on each of the Forums for feedback - nothing
no one posting to the CC forum either

no one has PM'd me

I don't think there is an issue with the Unlimited side
EVGA an OCN would be in a tough slug - EVGA normally can't get a very high % to convert - so I think it could be very close with OCN and their increased output
they notably get more conversion


however we are game - we may even lose and if we do...the credit goes to OCN for the turnout and the PPD increase
we can't win them all...Id rather give it to the team that really stepped up for the year


the handicap side?
well by taking off last years cc points if you produce the same you get zero points
so every team will be basing it off of team production growth
larger teams by mere upgrading will have more points even tho they could have the same growth %

if you just used sum(this year CC PPD/CC last year PPD) you would get 1+ percent growth of the team over last years

or you could use (CC PPD/team last 6 month avg PPD) if you get your team out you get 1pt if you dont you get less than 1Pt per day
this will handle conversion because it's built in with team PPD

anyways this is something we have been having issues with getting a formula - with just us and zodac offering most of them

and why I said the two biggest teams should not be setting the format or formula too much
we need as many eyes and people as we can get who can look at things

this is why the CC forum is failing... no one logs in - no one else offers suggestions
it's like we can't talk to each other or something....

and why its getting late with no agreement

zodac even put up their formula with a deadline then came and went with no response (2 different formats offered - 1 with OCN's formula)

[Adak]

Well, we're doing what we can. Keep the faith, Xaviar!

I am reluctant to provide all the details to the handicap points, because I feel like they won't want to accept details that come from somebody else, who isn't a CC captain. If they want the details provided, I'll be glad to do it, but I'd prefer the CC captains worked them out.

Please, no Trigonometric or functions using Calculus! You can't give that kind of explanation away, along with a free sandwich, to a starving person - and it's not needed.

I've also been scouting around the forums, but have seen nothing that can help us move this forward. It'll happen, but not tonight.

[Xavier Zepherio]

I got some word back from TSC...

Bosun and anwjl are CC reps

I will know more in a day or two - however they like the idea of a Chat channel for the capts


coolmasta from bit-tech is gonna look at it - my posts finally got thru

tpu? nothing so far

OCAU is onboard...

and we know HWC is very probable

Im still having troubles with OCN.

[Adak]

I posted as well on OCN, but their captain hasn't posted back.

Hopefully, things will get moving now that the holiday is behind us.

[David]

Originally Posted by Adak

Greetings, Xavier. Welcome to the forum.

I've been doing CC's long before you, or anyone on your team. Overclockers.com and MaxPC were the two teams that started the CC.

Time is short. Let's solve this problem.



OK.

Format:

two brackets, unlimited (straight points race), and a handicap bracket. The handicap basis point score for each team would be taken directly from their average day in the CC, last year.

If you believe it favors smaller teams a bit too much, then give each team a 50% penalty for the *increase* - sounds diabolical, but it cuts down on the advantage of the smaller teams percentage being a smaller quantity, compared to the same percentage increase, in a larger team.

(I'm not sure this is needed since the smaller teams will undoubtedly be in the handicap bracket, and the larger teams will be in the unlimited bracket.)

It's fair, it handles any problem of teams merging (like NCIX and HWC last year), and has a leveling effect on the competition.

Points:

Points in this format would be:

Unlimited bracket:
race points earned = total FAH pts.

Handicap bracket:
race points earned = total FAH pts - average days total FAH pts taken from last years CC.

Teams that are new to the CC and racing for the first time need a simple tweak to the points formula:

race points earned = total FAH pts - team daily average for the last six months.

It's important to remember in the midst of all this, that this is just a FUN race. It's not life or death -- it's more important than that! I don't need rules about EVGA having contests during the race, or any team "timing" work units so they score the most points, etc.

It's a race!

I don't care if EVGA wants to set their britches afire, and run around the park - if it helps them fold, then it's a win -- for Folding@Home. Maybe EVGA will get some time on a super computer -- Go EVGA! You time your work units, and I'll time mine.

It's a race!!

We may melt a server HD at Stanford, but that's their CC challenge!


It's simple, and we need to keep it that way. You start the race here, you end the race over there, and in-between, you fold like crazy.

Keeps it simple, keeps it fun and gets LOTS of folding done.

And isn't that why we have a CC?

This looks fair to me.

Sorry I haven't been around much lately - work is kicking my bottom.

[Adak]

Understandable David. No worries.

[Xavier Zepherio]

seems all we need is OCN,TPU & TSC

Ive tried every thing with TPU...nothing - no response to PM's or posts

TSC will get back to me anwjl and Bosun speak english so - they will rep for their capt


if you need CC data troy8d at EVGA has it
if you want help with a formula - you can also talk to him

I'll check in once and awhile to see when you have a final version

[Adak]

Please request troy8d post up the data he has from the last CC, here.

I will not be registering at EVGA - their "required" data, is more than I want to post up.

I've made some changes to the recommendations mentioned above:

1) The race would be a team race - no individuals need to change their folding name or passkey. You would race as a team.

2) The Handicap "Basis" would be calculated differently, to accomodate the team race feature.

This is a rough draft, see what you think.

The format would be the same as last year, EXCEPT:

1) This is a team race. Individuals don't need to sign up, or use a different passkey. Every team folder counts in this race.

2) The Handicap (hereafter called the "basis"), is calculated quite differently. Teams that work together in the race, will be given points just like they were one team, all along. All based on their performance of last year.

Code:

The following table is JUST a projection, to show how the points format being
proposed, works. Nothing personal!! :)

It's a fairly standard format handicap race, except:

1) The basis is calculated based on EITHER the team's prior race performance,
or their average May 2011 folding totals, for ten days - whichever is higher.

and

2) The entire team (and their folding friends), will be racing, not just individuals
within the team.

Whichever team has the greatest increase in folding, compared to last year,
should win the handicap portion of the race!


  Team         CC actual 2011  Basis    Projected Projected points   Projected race points
               points total             Increase  per day, 2012      per day, 2012
==========================================================================================
CbitChimps      43947959     4394795.9    7.9     34718887                79
EVGApes        120279256    12027925.6    7.5     90209442                75
ChimpPwrUp      27266335     2726633.5    6.5     17723118                65
MonkeyBollocks  15149103     1514910.3    6.3      9543935                63
MaxMonkeys      28575342     2857534.2    5.8     16573698                58
Beavers         40660364     4066036.4    5.3     21549993                53
OCNChimpin'    107318736    10731873.6    5.2     55805743                52
T32monkeys      42670316     4267031.6    5.1     21761861                51
TSChimp         45662987     4566298.7    5.1     23288123                51

Basis scores would be either the actual 2011 CC total points divided by 10 or one third the
total team points for May 2011, divided by 10, whichever is higher. This is necessary to accommodate both merging teams, and teams who had a low turnout for the 2011 CC race, but a high number of active team folders.

Please look it over, and let me know if it has an OK points format. Thanks.

[Xavier Zepherio]

Ive contacted troy - just witing to see if he post or he sends it to me and I do

I finally got hold of someone at TPU - crunching side moderator
Buck Nasty is their capt for the CC
still waiting on a response of some kind

PS: I have no issues with it....looks good...kinda surprised EVGA would be where it is... (we are not complaining...I thought we wind up more in the middle)

[Adak]

@Xavier,

The data above is ONLY a projection and has *nothing* to do with how the 2011 rankings would have been, with this format.

[Adak]

I'm trying to persuade our CC captains to consider this BOOST type of a handicap race. The format proposed above was too much like the last CC, which some teams didn't like, and don't want to repeat anything like it.

In a BOOST type of handicap race, each team is given the same goal of points to reach. At the start of the race, each team is given a unique BOOST (handicap) of points, suited for their team (based on past CC performance). The most productive team, will have zero for a boost.

The goal of the BOOST is to try and get every team to finish the race at the same time, with the same number of points. Which never happens, but it makes for an exciting race, imo. Both big and small teams can do well in this kind of race, perhaps with an edge for the big teams, imo.

Anyway, this is what a spreadsheet of it might look like, with the teams from last years CC, with a handicap BOOST
high limit of the highest points in the 2011 race * 2.

Boost:	Equals EVGA * 2	240,558,512
	Start >>	Day 1	Day 2	Day 3	Day 4	Day 5	Day 6	Day 7	Day 8	Day 9	Finish
CbitChimps	152,662,594	161,452,186	170,241,778	179,031,369	187,820,961	196,610,553	205,400,145	214,189,737	222,979,328	231,768,920	240,558,512
EVGApes	0	24,055,851	48,111,702	72,167,554	96,223,405	120,279,256	144,335,107	168,390,958	192,446,810	216,502,661	240,558,512
ChimpPwrUp	186,025,842	191,479,109	196,932,376	202,385,643	207,838,910	213,292,177	218,745,444	224,198,711	229,651,978	235,105,245	240,558,512
MonkeyBollocks	210,260,306	213,290,127	216,319,947	219,349,768	222,379,588	225,409,409	228,439,230	231,469,050	234,498,871	237,528,691	240,558,512
MaxMonkeys	183,407,828	189,122,896	194,837,965	200,553,033	206,268,102	211,983,170	217,698,238	223,413,307	229,128,375	234,843,444	240,558,512
Beavers	159,237,784	167,369,857	175,501,930	183,634,002	191,766,075	199,898,148	208,030,221	216,162,294	224,294,366	232,426,439	240,558,512
OCNChimpin'	25,921,040	47,384,787	68,848,534	90,312,282	111,776,029	133,239,776	154,703,523	176,167,270	197,631,018	219,094,765	240,558,512
T32monkeys	155,217,880	163,751,943	172,286,006	180,820,070	189,354,133	197,888,196	206,422,259	214,956,322	223,490,386	232,024,449	240,558,512
TSChimp	149,232,538	158,365,135	167,497,733	176,630,330	185,762,928	194,895,525	204,028,122	213,160,720	222,293,317	231,425,915	240,558,512

As always, let me know what you think about it, either here, or on the OCN or HWC Chimp Challenge threads.