[I.M.O.G.]

Originally Posted by Eldonko

Im sticking with the power density theory myself.

Why? Color me curious.

[rge]

power density plays a role, trigate, and solder vs tim would play a role, only issue is how much for each.

But regarding wattage earlier post between sandy and ivy, you cant go by total watts dissipated to figure difference in core temps when comparing across a die shrink, even though total heat output the same, what matters is power density, ie power per cm2, and only the area/size where power is actually consumed or heat "originates" matters.

150 watts consumed over a large area, the temperature would not be very hot.

150 watts consumed in a .001 micron area would exceed temp of a nuclear reactor.

See intels slide that everyone uses when explaining power density increase with die shrinks. Same wattage originating from smaller area = higher core temps.

[Eldonko]

The heat only makes sense, increase the transistor count from 1.16 billion on SB to 1.4 billion on IB and shrink the die from 216mm2 to 160mm2. That and I have confidence that Intel knows what they are doing with TIM..

Originally Posted by I.M.O.G.

Why? Color me curious.

[vargis14]

I believe intel used the paste as a kind of thermal resistor so ivy bridge cpus will not hit 6+ghz on a good air cooler or a decent AIO water cooler.Combine the 25% smaller die and the paste and they take away 6+ghz
So many Sandy bridges can hit 5+ ghz on affordable cooling.
If almost every 22nm IBk model can hit 6ghz + like the sandys hit 5+ghz it would hurt Intels sales of 6 core SB-E platforms and cpus when you could get the same or even better performance with a 6+ghz IVY
I think the new coolermaster 812s heatpipe/vaporchamber heatsink will let that naked IVY hit 6 ghz maybe more since the bus can almost pass 110mhz add ivys improved memory controller and i think 6000mhz on air

All you need to protect the die is maybe the old amd barton style hard rubber bumpers on all 4 corners or even a ATI/AMD GPU trim ring.Those chips are not cracking.One of those ideas,or a better one is all that is needed to keep the coolers/block from tilting and cracking the chip.
You can use a razorblade and a light to make sure the die is flat and does not have any high spots on the corners and edges.If you do find a high corner i am sure you could carefully shave it with a fine razor.I have seen cracked chips still work so i don't think shaving a minute high spot would hurt a thing.
Get that naked IVY chip in a motherboard and post the oc/temp/voltage results please.BTW i salute the person who found that poison under the IHS 6ghz on air baby i can feel it!!!!!!

[Eldonko]

Lol if someone does 6Ghz on air because they removed the IHS Ill eat my friggin hat.

[wingman99]

Originally Posted by rge

power density plays a role, trigate, and solder vs tim would play a role, only issue is how much for each.

But regarding wattage earlier post between sandy and ivy, you cant go by total watts dissipated to figure difference in core temps when comparing across a die shrink, even though total heat output the same, what matters is power density, ie power per cm2, and only the area/size where power is actually consumed or heat "originates" matters.

150 watts consumed over a large area, the temperature would not be very hot.

150 watts consumed in a .001 micron area would exceed temp of a nuclear reactor.

See intels slide that everyone uses when explaining power density increase with die shrinks. Same wattage originating from smaller area = higher core temps.

Looking at the chart the power density went up on the core 2 Duo however the power of CM2 went down is this because of critical dimension and what is that?

[I.M.O.G.]

Originally Posted by Eldonko

The heat only makes sense, increase the transistor count from 1.16 billion on SB to 1.4 billion on IB and shrink the die from 216mm2 to 160mm2. That and I have confidence that Intel knows what they are doing with TIM..

Thanks.

I also have confidence that Intel knows what they are doing with TIM. I also have confidence that every solution they choose is a balance between what is technically ideal and what is realistically appropriate. They could give us 6GHz on air processors by the end of the year - they have the resources skills, and ability to execute. I don't doubt at all that it could be possible if they dumped enough money into achieving that goal - but maybe they won't do that because making it a reality is too expensive, difficult, or otherwise bad for business.

If using an inferior TIM is sufficient and cheaper/quicker/easier/etc... Despite knowing a different solution would keep things cooler, I could see how they could make a decision to use an inferior cooling solution that was good enough due to balancing priorities.

The 6GHz thing is only intended to draw out a point. What they could do, what is best, and what they actually do can very realistically be different things. And if they are different, it isn't because they are dumb.

[vargis14]

Originally Posted by Eldonko

Lol if someone does 6Ghz on air because they removed the IHS Ill eat my friggin hat.

What kind of sauce would you like,honey mustard,sweet and sour or just plain old ketchup replace popcorn with hat please.

I do have high hopes, unfortunately i am not wealthy.But if i was you better believe i would be on it like a fly on doo doo.

I think that paste slows heat dissipation a great deal.CPU die to paste of unknown origin and properties to IHS to paste to heatsink.3 layers of stuff before it touches the heatsink.
I just really have a gut feeling intel made a cpu a little faster then they planned on and that secret sauce will remove SB stockpiles quickly,also aiding in SB-E platform sales.
SB-e has a place for super memory intesive stuff workstation quad sli etc.
But with IVYs potential raw cpu power PCIe3.0 I mean who will need 4 video cards when the dual gpu 690s and AMDs 7990 come out.BTW i prefer the new NV cards
I.M.O.G. i know intel is not dumb they are a powerhouse with no competition.So they use tactics to sell older cpus.If that means crippling a super fast cpu just enough to make it slightly faster then its older brother at identical clock speeds but wont break 5ghz without extreme cooling is good for business.They clear inventory etc.
Good luck to the first naked IVY cpu!!!!

[wingman99]

Originally Posted by Eldonko

The heat only makes sense, increase the transistor count from 1.16 billion on SB to 1.4 billion on IB and shrink the die from 216mm2 to 160mm2. That and I have confidence that Intel knows what they are doing with TIM..

LINK: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4830/i...ture-exposed/1
QUOTE: Intel hasn't announced die size but transistor count has increased to approximately 1.4 billion (layout). This is up from 1.16 billion in Sandy Bridge, a 20.7% increase. With perfect scaling a 22nm Sandy Bridge die would be 47.3% the size of a 32nm die. Even with the increase in transistor count, it's a good bet that Ivy Bridge will be noticeably smaller than Sandy Bridge.

A good percent of the transistors go to the GPU and the CPU portion of the chip did not go through much change from SB it is a TIC, however they added greatly to the GPU transistor count in IB. intel wont give out the split in the transistors CPU and GPU.

[Eldonko]

Originally Posted by I.M.O.G.

Thanks.

I also have confidence that Intel knows what they are doing with TIM. I also have confidence that every solution they choose is a balance between what is technically ideal and what is realistically appropriate. They could give us 6GHz on air processors by the end of the year - they have the resources skills, and ability to execute. I don't doubt at all that it could be possible if they dumped enough money into achieving that goal - but maybe they won't do that because making it a reality is too expensive, difficult, or otherwise bad for business.

If using an inferior TIM is sufficient and cheaper/quicker/easier/etc... Despite knowing a different solution would keep things cooler, I could see how they could make a decision to use an inferior cooling solution that was good enough due to balancing priorities.

The 6GHz thing is only intended to draw out a point. What they could do, what is best, and what they actually do can very realistically be different things. And if they are different, it isn't because they are dumb.

Not saying you are wrong, that could very well be the case m8 (or part of it at least), Im just saying that in my opinion the chip architecture would have a lot more of an effect on temperatures than the TIM used. Moore's Law, die size, transistor count, tri-gate, and so on.

I guess this will be proven or disproven as soon as someone removes their IHS and overclocks the chip. I have my $ on a few C less and a few more Mhz same as any other IHS-less chip. Ocers are a curious bunch so we will see this sooner rather than later. It is not gunna be me though lol

[dejo]

I still see no reason for Intel to choose TIM over solder, other than dollars. I also think that most that are willing to pay for the top offering of a specific family- would also be willing to spend a few dollars more to be the best that product "could" be. Bring on 2600k price, but also bring back the solder, and let us see what "should" have been

[Krazy931]

just confused on the whole people saying intels trying to sell the rest of their sandy bridge when that is not the case at all theres a very precise way things are done when new things are coming out and normally the manufacturer holds very little of their own product it would be people like newegg tigerdirect etc.... that would have the stockpiles of extra chips not intel so im sorry you guys can throw that thought into the trash

[txus.palacios]

Can't understand this movement from Intel. OK. You have no competition. But normal OCers (not LN2 benchers) will not buy your "k" chips.

I will stick with the 2500k or grab a i7 SNB if I find it cheap, if the temperatures get as high as that just because you decided to save a few bucks using TIM instead of solder.

[rge]

If it were cheaper to use solder, the cheaper E7200 etc would also have solder like e8400 instead of non-solder/paste die attach, but they dont. So definitely agree with non-solder/paste being cheaper, and intel saving money when die attach on a particular cpu doesnt require solder when used as intended by intel.

Also possible, if intel thought trigate was going to lower voltage, then only later in design realized wasnt the case, perhaps that played a role in die attach choice. Or the fact that at stock setting, non-solder attach works fine with Ivy.

As IMOG pointed out, intel clearly has the ability to design for overclockers, but the future isnt overclocking, it is mobile, less power hungry platforms, and intel isnt designing chips for us few that push way more volts through to overclock, but for the masses.

No one is saying intel doesnt know what they are doing, we are simply acknowledging intels needs and overclockers needs may not always be the same.

[Zarck]

Nothing beats the molecular bonding,

http://www.linguee.fr/francais-angla...E9culaire.html

[lance-M]

very good info..seems to match up with other sites around the planet on this issue..heat and chips. but this is the 1st forum to actually find a reason for it.
thanks again for the info..

[evangelionstar]

Question is: is this an issue limited only to the engineering and early release samples OR does it also affect the retail versions of the 3770k that will be released in 3days?


Has anyone read or perhaps suggested it to those lucky ones around the net that have actually gotten their hands on full retail kits?

These chips have been available for a while now in China and a couple of days in Norway, Hollands, Germany etc

[EarthDog]

I dont think anyone is sure as I believe, but not sure, that review samples were all ES. We have a couple days to find out though.

Not sure if a retail one has been delidded.

[wagex]

welp only one way to tell, who has the classified chip? tell them to pop off the lid and attach a heatsink right on the die and see what happens lol

[hokiealumnus]

Just for reference, here is what a soldered die looks like de-lidded.



Image courtesy BlindFreddie @ XS.