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NAS Storage Solution... Help a Newb!

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Convicted1

Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Location
Lake of the Ozarks, Mo
Hey guys...

I've got a bunch of older hardware layin' around here... and I was thinking... Maybe I should build myself a NAS!

The plan is to set this system up in the garage... Wired via Gigabit Ethernet. I'd like for all my wired devices (All on Windows 7 Pro) and any of my Wireless devices such as tablets / cell phones to be able to access it.

Here's what I was considering using for hardware... I'm thinking this should be more than enough CPU power for what I'm looking to do... BUT... You guys are the experts.

1) Gigabyte MA785GM-US2H Motherboard - (Newegg Link)

2) AMD Phenom X4 9550 CPU - (Newegg Link)

3) 4GB DDR2 1066 RAM

Harddisks... I don't have anything right now... But... I'm planning to start with two 2TB drives in a RAID 1 Configuration to prevent data loss.

Sooo... I look to you storage experts to tell me if this hardware will run a decent NAS / Media Server...

Also... What software do I need to have to make all this work?

Thanks in advance guys!

-David
 
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That's plenty for a file server.

I'd go for OpenIndiana due to ZFS for the file server OS. For Media Server duties, if you need UPnP or something like that, I'd use CentOS / Debian / any other Linux you're comfy with. Have you considered ESXi? You could run a couple of VMs, one for ZFS, and another one for the media server or any other requirements you have.

Speaking of HDDs, go RAID 5 if you are focused on the gigabytes, or RAID 10 if you are focused on the speed, and you have plenty drives to use.
 
That's plenty for a file server.

I'd go for OpenIndiana due to ZFS for the file server OS. For Media Server duties, if you need UPnP or something like that, I'd use CentOS / Debian / any other Linux you're comfy with. Have you considered ESXi? You could run a couple of VMs, one for ZFS, and another one for the media server or any other requirements you have.

Speaking of HDDs, go RAID 5 if you are focused on the gigabytes, or RAID 10 if you are focused on the speed, and you have plenty drives to use.

OK... Couple things...

First... Thanks a bunch for the quick reply!

Second... 95% of that went COMPLETELY over my head. :chair: As for Linux... I've used Ubuntu for about 20 minutes... And was completely lost when I did that. I'm definitely not against learning though.

Third... As for HDD's... I want to keep the expense reasonable for now with the maximum amount of redundant storage... Hadn't thought about RAID 5 though. I assume I'd need a RAID card for that?

Again... Thanks a BUNCH for the quick reply... But you may have to start a little slower for me. :)
 
Setting the system in your garage is not a good idea. You have a lot more contaminates in the air, temperature swings, and higher humidity. Not a good combination for something that you need to be reliable. If you have a basement, that would be a much better location.

The hardware you have available will be more than enough to run whatever you need. What you choose to do now is mainly going to be decided on your needs in the future. For example, you aren't going to want to do RAID 1 if you are adding more drives, as that will waste a substantial amount of space and won't integrate well with the existing setup. You will also need to know what type of files are going to be stored on the server (media, backups, databases, virtual machines, etc), what the access patterns are (streaming video, audio, etc), and how much storage you will need.

To help you figure out how much space you will need, here are some averages from my file server:
FLAC (uncompressed) audio file - 32.2 mb
OGG (compressed, like MP3) audio file - 2.82 mb
DVD - 1014 mb (largest is 3.1 gb, smallest is 424 mb)
BluRay - 3654 mb (largest is 9.8 gb, smallest is 1.4 gb)

For RAID, you don't need a RAID card. You could go that route, but it is going to cost a bit more and it isn't necessary. I would highly suggest staying away from cheap RAID cards and on-board RAID solutions, as they are only going to cause you a headache. That leaves you only with (real) hardware and software RAID. NAS-oriented operating systems will have RAID or RAID-like features (ZFS) built into them and their interface is simple. This decision is very important, because once you pick a setup, it is going to be painful (or expensive) to switch. Each option has their pros and cons, but we need more information before we can give suggestions.

Questions that you should think about and answer if you can:
What clients will you be using (Windows, XBox, PS3, etc)?
What software will you be using to play audio/video (XMBC, etc)?
Would you rather pay money for a Windows license or save money by going with a free option*?
How important are the files on the server?
What is your budget?
Besides file sharing, do you need this server to do anything else? That could include being a web server, a virtual machine host, etc.

*A "free option" could include a full blown operating system, such as CentOS or Ubuntu, but I would advise using a NAS-oriented operating system, such as FreeNAS, OpenIndiana, etc.
 
First off... Thanks a bunch Thiddy!

I will say... I'm still sort of lost on alot of the "jargon" in this post. I'm a complete noob to mass storage, server type stuff, and obviously NAS.

And now.... My responses in Red.

Setting the system in your garage is not a good idea. You have a lot more contaminates in the air, temperature swings, and higher humidity. Not a good combination for something that you need to be reliable. If you have a basement, that would be a much better location.

I tend to agree... But... I do spend ALOT more time in the garage than most people, and I tend to keep it more climate controlled and cleaner as such. My garage is also my workshop / benching room. So I'm usually out there a minimum of 4 hours a day with customer stuff or my own tinkering. If you STILL don't think it'll work I'll have to make room for it next to the Home Theatre System or in my Office.

The hardware you have available will be more than enough to run whatever you need. What you choose to do now is mainly going to be decided on your needs in the future. For example, you aren't going to want to do RAID 1 if you are adding more drives, as that will waste a substantial amount of space and won't integrate well with the existing setup. You will also need to know what type of files are going to be stored on the server (media, backups, databases, virtual machines, etc), what the access patterns are (streaming video, audio, etc), and how much storage you will need.

The plan is to have something where I can start with a minimum investment in storage... Say 2x 2TB's for now... But have the ability to add later as budget permits.

As for what type of files will be stored on the NAS... EVERYTHING. I want to get to the point where I'm running a 256GB SSD in each of my machines for OS and Applications / Games... And then have everything else stored on the NAS. Essentially... Anything that isn't an application or application related file I'd love to have on the NAS instead of having them scattered all over all of my different machines.

I suppose this is almost more of a fileserver now that I think about it isn't it?


To help you figure out how much space you will need, here are some averages from my file server:
FLAC (uncompressed) audio file - 32.2 mb
OGG (compressed, like MP3) audio file - 2.82 mb
DVD - 1014 mb (largest is 3.1 gb, smallest is 424 mb)
BluRay - 3654 mb (largest is 9.8 gb, smallest is 1.4 gb)

Wow... Thats ALOT more space than I was figuring on. Good to know.

Eventually... When I can justify adding the storage... I would LOVE to have my wifes entire DVD Collection of over 500 DVD's on the NAS. Probably 75 or 100 Blu-Rays so far.

10-20GB of Audio MP3's... BUT Eventually I want to look into a higher quality solution that will obviously take up more space.

50GB or so of photos and home video.

Lots of downloaded show series... (Completely legally... I swear! :chair: )

Lots of downloaded applications such as benchmarking software installers, etc.

Backups of each machine would be a plus. 4x Desktops, an HTPC, and 2 laptops.



For RAID, you don't need a RAID card. You could go that route, but it is going to cost a bit more and it isn't necessary. I would highly suggest staying away from cheap RAID cards and on-board RAID solutions, as they are only going to cause you a headache. That leaves you only with (real) hardware and software RAID. NAS-oriented operating systems will have RAID or RAID-like features (ZFS) built into them and their interface is simple. This decision is very important, because once you pick a setup, it is going to be painful (or expensive) to switch. Each option has their pros and cons, but we need more information before we can give suggestions.

I want to do the job "right"... If that means spending some extra cash... So be it.

Questions that you should think about and answer if you can:

What clients will you be using (Windows, XBox, PS3, etc)?

All of the Above, Plus Tablets and Cells.

What software will you be using to play audio/video (XMBC, etc)?

I myself usually stick to VLC, but my wife uses iTunes, Never tried XMBC... Actually need to look into that and see what it is! LOL

Would you rather pay money for a Windows license or save money by going with a free option*?

I don't mind paying for a Windows license... Hopefully we won't need one of the massively expensive server options though.

Windows actually appeals to me since thats what I already know, as opposed to learning Linux in a hurry.


How important are the files on the server?

MOST aren't allllll that important. Very few are SUPER important... As in... My wife would have my manhood if I lost them... Such as the wedding pics I thought I lost when I fried my current storage drive. Luckily... Mother in law had a copy still.

What is your budget?

My budget is whatever it needs to be to do the job "right". Would prefer to keep it under 1K with the first round of storage. However... I do have 2 WD Western Digital Blacks already here that are being used for storage now... Those could be moved to the NAS.

Besides file sharing, do you need this server to do anything else? That could include being a web server, a virtual machine host, etc.

I've never done anything with VM's... So I don't really know what the benefit would be. I wouldn't mind having the ability to access the NAS from anywhere in the world should I need one of the files. Wouldn't mind being able to host some games or a teamspeak server either... BUT... I think a measly 9550 Phenom X4 may not be up to that task. I'm working on a deal for a 955BE that would eventually be able to go in this though.

*A "free option" could include a full blown operating system, such as CentOS or Ubuntu, but I would advise using a NAS-oriented operating system, such as FreeNAS, OpenIndiana, etc.

Free is great... BUT... Only if it's a great solution. As long as it does the job I need it to with little or no compromise... I'm happy.

Thanks again for the response Thiddy... Sorry for the need of "hand holding" but this is all very fresh territory for me.

I do learn quick though!

-David
 
I still stand by my suggestion to not put it in the garage. I'm not sure what type of work you are doing, but I'm guessing that there is the possibility of small particles (wood dust, metal shavings, etc) in combination with the normal dirt and grime that comes from using a garage. Simply sweeping the floor is going to kick up a lot of crud, which is going to be easily pulled into the server case. This is a very bad thing. I've seen computers that car repair facilities use after a few years, and they are absolutely disgusting and caked with crap.

I suppose this is almost more of a fileserver now that I think about it isn't it?
It is still a file server as long as it is storing and sharing files. For your starting point, you are going to want three drives, no matter which way you go. Otherwise, you are going to be stuck with RAID 1 and switching that to a RAID 5 in the future is going to be difficult as you'd need to offload the data from the drives, rebuild the array as RAID 5, and then put the data back. If the disks were near full, that isn't going to be fun. Starting with three allows you to run RAID 5 or the RAID 5 equivalent in ZFS. From there, expansion is easy. In mdadm (Linux software RAID), you simply add the new hard drive(s) to the array and tell it to expand; that is literally it. ZFS is a bit more picky as you'd need to add in sets of three hard drives. This is the only downside to ZFS that I see: to expand the array, you have to add a new "set" of drives, not individual ones.

I want to do the job "right"... If that means spending some extra cash... So be it.
Here is the thing though, for what you are going to use it for, a RAID card is going to be worthless. Think of it like a video card in a desktop. If you were doing nothing but browsing the internet and checking your email, you wouldn't buy a 7970. That would be wasteful and unnecessary. A RAID card will help in very high performance situations, or when you need to really be able to have a lot of hard drives.

I'll use my server as an example, because I'm actually using a full blown hardware RAID card. Link 1. Link 2. With as many drives as I'm running (19, case fits ~21), it would be difficult and expensive to get a SATA controller to run them. This also offloads all parity, read-ahead, and write-back cache to the RAID controller, which gives a considerable boost in speed in addition to creating no load on the main processors/RAM. Real RAID cards have a processor and memory on board. These drives see substantially different load than what you will see. When streaming a Bluray video, you will peak around 1 megabyte a second. I'm doing not only that, but I'm running a plethora of virtual machines (I believe that seven or so are running at the moment and more than that are off). When one of those virtual machines starts working, I don't want my movie to start skipping or grind to a halt, so I took every precaution to make sure that doesn't happen (and I was a bit surprised how difficult it was to cause it to stutter). You don't need this, but you are welcome to join me in my insanity of overkill.

I don't mind paying for a Windows license... Hopefully we won't need one of the massively expensive server options though.

Windows actually appeals to me since thats what I already know, as opposed to learning Linux in a hurry.
You may want to think about this and maybe even try it out in a virtual machine. Linux is going to be more headache inducing, but remember that we have a lot of knowledgeable folks here on the forums ready to help you out and there is a lot of information online. I don't want to force you into this option, but it really is better if you are willing to put the time into it. You will get more flexibility, less limitations, and it is free. Not only that, if you've wanted to learn Linux, this is a great opportunity. If you do go this route, I'm will to help you out via chat if you want/need it. My MSN/AIM information is in my profile, and my Gmail is my username.

MOST aren't allllll that important. Very few are SUPER important... As in... My wife would have my manhood if I lost them... Such as the wedding pics I thought I lost when I fried my current storage drive. Luckily... Mother in law had a copy still.
For your important files, I would suggest using an offline storage service, such as CrashPlan or BackBlaze. I use the former and it runs on my Linux (CentOS 6.x) server.

My budget is whatever it needs to be to do the job "right".
Minus the hard drives, that is very easily done. The hard part now is always the drives. I would suggest against buying new, and instead scouring online forums for gently used ones. I managed to pick up ten 750gb drives at $30 each and eight 1.5tb drives at $40 each after the flooding in Thailand. You just need to keep a look out for them.

I've never done anything with VM's... So I don't really know what the benefit would be. I wouldn't mind having the ability to access the NAS from anywhere in the world should I need one of the files. Wouldn't mind being able to host some games or a teamspeak server either... BUT... I think a measly 9550 Phenom X4 may not be up to that task. I'm working on a deal for a 955BE that would eventually be able to go in this though.
I ran a Phenom I x4 for the longest time in my server and only upgraded because there was a cheap dual socket G34 setup in the classifieds. It was responsible for everything that my current one does (same number of virtual machines) and the only downside was the memory capacity. It should be able to run whatever you want. I'm not sure how much you know about virtual machines, so I'll start from scratch. A VM is a contained computer within a host system. You can think of it like a computer within a computer. So, for example, if you were running Windows, you could install virtual machine software (VMWare, VirtualBox, etc) and run VMs on your system. Even though your host OS is Windows, the virtual machines are completely self-contained, so you could be running Windows, Linux, Mac, or whatever you want. In addition to being completely contained, they are portable, so they aren't tied to hardware. I have a Windows 7 virtual machine on my laptop (host OS is Arch Linux) that I use for any classes at school that require it. I can copy it to my desktop if I need a bit more power behind it or leave it on my laptop if I need it to be portable. They are extremely flexible and useful.

Free is great... BUT... Only if it's a great solution. As long as it does the job I need it to with little or no compromise... I'm happy.
The only compromise for you is going to be time since you need to learn. For me, I can setup a Linux server faster in my home environment than I can setup a Windows server. That makes the option very obvious to me: Why pay for something that is offered for free and does more? I can't make this decision for you, I can only show you the options, offer advice, and offer help. :)
 
The only thing I would add to what Corey has already posted.

FreeNAS, OpenIndiana, or similar you can add raid1 "vdev's" to an existing storage pool. The only caveat is that you're limited to space. Let me explain:

Let's say you start with 2x 2tb drives

You create a "mirrored" (RAID1) pool (group of drives). You would have 2tb of total storage (realistically 1.8x tb)

Now with ZFS, you cannot add a single drive. But you can add another "mirrored" "vdev".

So it would then be a RAID10 with 4x 2tb drives. 4tb total storage. Now if you had purchased 4x 2tb drives initially, this could be a 6tb RAID5. Once advantage (which you wouldn't need from the sounds of it), is that two mirrored vdev's in a pool would be substantially faster than one raid5.

With ZFS, if you start with a raid5 (3 drives), you can only add groups of 3 drives. So 3, 6, 9, etc... if you start with a raid1, you can add groups of two drives. same for raid6 on ZFS.

I would highly, highly recommend openindiana. You install it, install napp-it addon, and it's all web managed. Simple to do, very fast. Supports iscsi and NFS as well if you want to get some experience with those technologies. I even have a walkthrough to build an openindiana NAS in an ESXi environment.
 
Wow guys!

LOTS of great information there!

I just saw the post... and as you can tell by the timestamp... It's a bit early (or late?) and most of it is kind of jibberish right now.

I'm gonna check this out when I get up later and do some research... Then reply.

Just wanted to say a huge "Thanks!"...

I really feel that with your help I'll get exactly what I need!

Till tomorrow....

-David
 
I will be doing the same thing in another month when I get my house ( only your server is nicer than mine will be ) with a 4400+ . I havnt picked what OS I will be using but if I had to guess it will be WHS. For me Linux is a massive pain in the *** ( I have got it to do a few things that I want but it always seams like it takes Hours and Hours to figure out the smallest thing . IF you get this first WHS it has drive pooling like some of the *nix distros ( the newesr verson of WHS doesn't)
 
I don't know if thideras has played around with it yet in his file system tests, but so far I'm loving my FlexRaid setup. No need for keeping drives all the same size, or any problems with removing or adding in drives of any size, at any time (I just had a 1.5TB drive appear to have a head crash so I removed it from the drive pool for now). Best of all, like RAID 5, I can have a dedicated parity drive (or 2, or 3, or..) for protection incase one of the data drives gives up the ghost.

Only caveats are that it's not free, parity drive(s) must be as large or larger then the largest drive (or pool), and that it's not real-time raid, as it only calculates the parity once a day (or more depending on if you change the scheduling).

I choose this mainly because of my needs. I needed something software RAID like for data protection, but without all the restriction of normal hardware (tied to specific hardware) and even most software RAID implements (all drives must be of same size), as well as easy to expand or shrink the drive pool at any time without requiring a rebuild, since I plan on changing/expanding my storage needs as the need arises and funds dictate. Most file systems I looked into, even ZFS, did not offer what I was looking for, mainly the ease of expansion/reduction, that I needed.

If money isn't a problem, I'd say go with a ZFS file system and get what you can afford hardware wise, but plan ahead. Think that only 4TB is enough for now? Might as well go for a 10TB build and not worry about expansion problems later on.
 
I will be doing the same thing in another month when I get my house ( only your server is nicer than mine will be ) with a 4400+ . I havnt picked what OS I will be using but if I had to guess it will be WHS. For me Linux is a massive pain in the *** ( I have got it to do a few things that I want but it always seams like it takes Hours and Hours to figure out the smallest thing . IF you get this first WHS it has drive pooling like some of the *nix distros ( the newesr verson of WHS doesn't)

WHS = suck, at least the new version. And you're running RAID1, so if you have 10tb of data and need redundancy, that's 20tb of storage. Openindiana + napp-it is all web-based, and it is SIMPLE.

I don't know if thideras has played around with it yet in his file system tests, but so far I'm loving my FlexRaid setup. No need for keeping drives all the same size, or any problems with removing or adding in drives of any size, at any time (I just had a 1.5TB drive appear to have a head crash so I removed it from the drive pool for now). Best of all, like RAID 5, I can have a dedicated parity drive (or 2, or 3, or..) for protection incase one of the data drives gives up the ghost.

Only caveats are that it's not free, parity drive(s) must be as large or larger then the largest drive (or pool), and that it's not real-time raid, as it only calculates the parity once a day (or more depending on if you change the scheduling).

I choose this mainly because of my needs. I needed something software RAID like for data protection, but without all the restriction of normal hardware (tied to specific hardware) and even most software RAID implements (all drives must be of same size), as well as easy to expand or shrink the drive pool at any time without requiring a rebuild, since I plan on changing/expanding my storage needs as the need arises and funds dictate. Most file systems I looked into, even ZFS, did not offer what I was looking for, mainly the ease of expansion/reduction, that I needed.

If money isn't a problem, I'd say go with a ZFS file system and get what you can afford hardware wise, but plan ahead. Think that only 4TB is enough for now? Might as well go for a 10TB build and not worry about expansion problems later on.

With FreeNAS and/or OpenIndiana (and others, I'm sure), expansion isn't that difficult. You could take a 2-drive mirror and add a raid5 configuration to the same pool. IE if you have a 2x2tb mirror, you should be able to add a 3x2tb raidz (raid5) to the same pool and see the additional 4tb (added to your original 2tb).

ZFS through ubuntu can be easily added to, or even subtracted from, if you need to increase/decrease storage.
 
this is exactly what i did convicted :) it works just tossed some older 775 hardware in an old dell dimension 3000 case and started stacking in hard drives lol, only problem so far is the dell fan is starting to get anoying clicking sound probably just needs oiled :p
 
I gotta say I just installed napp-it and it just really cool. Anyway, I will keep defining the vdev's attributes using the command line, zfs is super simple (two commands only!), but the web interface, it looks great.
 
I gotta say I just installed napp-it and it just really cool. Anyway, I will keep defining the vdev's attributes using the command line, zfs is super simple (two commands only!), but the web interface, it looks great.

I prefer the command-line since I know it at this point, but napp-it really simplifies it for new users. I should probably donate to napp-it. :-/
 
I just watched some vids on freeNas 8.2 looks pretty good and easy to use

The one thing I really loved about FreeNAS was booting from a flash drive. The one thing I did not love about FreeNAS was the slow samba shares, but then I want to max gigabit which is more than the average bear wants to do with a home-based NAS.
 
The one thing I really loved about FreeNAS was booting from a flash drive. The one thing I did not love about FreeNAS was the slow samba shares, but then I want to max gigabit which is more than the average bear wants to do with a home-based NAS.
Since it uses the same Samba as other flavors of Linux, this shouldn't be a problem. It might be more of a function of software RAID or something else. Once I get a few more reviews done, it should hopefully narrow down the "problem" if there is one.

Here are unofficial results of FreeNAS (ZFS) against my CentOS 6.2 (hardware RAID) server:
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7257483#post7257483
 
With FreeNAS and/or OpenIndiana (and others, I'm sure), expansion isn't that difficult. You could take a 2-drive mirror and add a raid5 configuration to the same pool. IE if you have a 2x2tb mirror, you should be able to add a 3x2tb raidz (raid5) to the same pool and see the additional 4tb (added to your original 2tb).

ZFS through ubuntu can be easily added to, or even subtracted from, if you need to increase/decrease storage.

Expansion isn't a problem, I've seen that and it was one of the things I liked about ZFS. However, being able to throw any drive into the machine, regardless of size and still using RAIDz, isn't possible (afaik, has that changed?). Easily reducing the pool isn't "easy" on ZFS either, and it's something I would need to contend with if/when a drive dies.

Right now, I have more then enough free space that a lost drive would not warrant a immediate replacement, just like my 1.5TB drive and its recent head strike (although the sectors have been remapped and its coming up 100% health, I still don't trust it). Took it out of my current drive pool in FlexRaid without any issues. Simple couple of clicks and was done within minutes, and that's with a RAIDz2 setup of 2TB, 1TB, and that 1.5TB drive(s).

Trust me, I would LOVE to use ZFS. Hell, I'm still looking into building a ESXi system just to have a ZFS controlled pool for all the VMs I currently run and storage space for the whole home. But because of those limitations which I can't easily get around because of my budget (good 2TB drives are still expensive), I just can't use it (for now) and hence my recommendation of FlexRaid. :beer:
 
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