NANOTHERM QUESTIONS REGARDING PCM+ (old and New formula)

OMG

You guys have been talking about visible damage to heatsinks. I have seen greases and oils absorbed into the OGPGA packaging of Athlon XP processors. There is also a possibility of the cores being slightly porous or being rendered porous by slight core scrapes or chips. I wonder what the heck will/is happening to those CPU if they absorb water into the copper interconnects in the core or the connections from the core out to the pins!!!
Not to mention the fact that while the water might be distilled when it goes INTO the compound, what is it like by the time it's had contact with metals and had the opportunity to absorb metallic oxides and salts ??? What it's like is conductive!!!

I'm sorry but IMHO it's the stupidest thing to even consider putting into a TIM without adequate warnings. I would now suggest it should never be used on CPUs with bare cores (i.e. AMDs), "corrosion inhibitor" or not.
I don't suppose it was even considered that this water when evaporating from the compound might not always find it's way harmlessly out of the case. Some people regularly experience 100% humidity in the summer, with high dewpoints. In such cases it might be evaporating out as wet steam and almost immediately condensing on some other component.

hmmmph,

Road Warrior

LOL, I think perhaps you are imagining it to be a bigger deal than it is - or maybe you are being facetious.

I question whether distilled water as a direct ingredient to your TIM is a good idea, but the quantity of water and the speed with which it will evaporate makes it not a big deal in some of the ways you mentioned.

I think the quality of the TIM joint that it leaves behind is what needs to be worried about.

Direct die cooling can last days or months, and maybe in rare cases a year even (I haven't heard any succesful long term accounts, but maybe I am not "in the know"). If that's possible, I don't think a little water in your TIM will be catastrophic for your chip. I'm still not going to say it's a good idea, but lets attempt to not be overdramatic about it's effects if we are going to continue this progressive discussion with Nanotherm. We aren't trying to scare everyone from using PCM+, we are trying to get to the bottom of certain issues and analyze their product/business in the light of recent discoveries.

Do any other TIM manufacturers use plain old distilled water as an ingredient?

Distilled water isn't nonconductive to begin with Road. You have to deionize it for that.

"In such cases it might be evaporating out as wet steam and almost immediately condensing on some other component." There are some mistakes in that assumption.

And directdie testing found I believe that Under relatively high pressure, it still took a good deal of time before water seeped into the core. The water won't be around anywhere near long enough to cause this problem when using a Water-based TIM.

IMOG said:

Do any other TIM manufacturers use plain old distilled water as an ingredient?

Click to expand...

I am on the the phone as I write this inquiring to the big three thermal paste manufacturers getting that exact info. Stay tuned.

Road Warrior,

I appreciate your concern, but the total amount of distilled water we are talking about in a typical application is only a fraction of a small drop. A miniscule amount of water. And that very tiny amount of water evaporates in just a few minutes and wouldn't be enough to raise the humidity inside the PC to any measurable fraction of a percentage. And nothing that might be absorbed into the core, as you suggested

Okay, maybe that was a bit alarmist, but I am still doubtful that I'd want water on my CPU core. I mean if "a fraction of a small drop" can tarnish 2 square inches of heatsink, and maybe take a micron out of it in oxidation, of course I'd worry, the copper in a CPU core doesn't have that many square inches or microns of thickness to spare.

Distilled water is way less conductive than water that has dissolved metals minerals or salts. That's what I meant.

I've heard of direct die cooling though and the implementations I have seen used a laquer on the CPU to be on the safe side.

Heh, and on thinking about it , the situations where that amount of condensation would be a problem, probably already have a condensation problem, doh.

Nanotherm said:

Road Warrior,

I appreciate your concern, but the total amount of distilled water we are talking about in a typical application is only a fraction of a small drop. A miniscule amount of water. And that very tiny amount of water evaporates in just a few minutes and wouldn't be enough to raise the humidity inside the PC to any measurable fraction of a percentage. And nothing that might be absorbed into the core, as you suggested

Click to expand...

You may be the Only Thermal paste manufacturer to be using distilled water for high performance thermal pastes, the only exception to using water in a thermal conduit product would be a thermal gap filler, this is primarily for Flame retardness and is not a product for CPU use.

I have spoken to AOC and they simple said that water, even if it's distilled is not a good idea and they would not even consider using it. Non of their thermal products use h20.


I have also spoken to Thermagon and they do not use h20 in their high performance thermal products. Although I did learn of a new product called T-Grease 2500 which is supposed to be on par with Shin Etsu G751, and I will be testing that shortly.

Arctic Silver also does not use h20 and they go through a refining process (Proprietary) to make sure that there is no h20 present. http://www.arcticsilver.com/PDF/as5msds.pdf

Due to the fact that it's Friday I can't call Thermal grease manufacturers in Japan due to it being 9pm there, but Monday I will be making a few more calls.

But it appears using Distilled water, even in small amounts is detrimental and not an additive the major thermal grease manufacturers use. For obvious reasons, Why PCM+ uses it is beyond me, and after talking to a few MAJOR thermal manufacturers, it's also beyond them as well.....

wow, been gone for a long while and i come back to find This!

lol

u guys all come over too my place and have a beer or 6, k?

rok on getleman!

I have to Ask Scott another question. (PS your copyright at your site annoys me to no end btw, it's a bit harsh don't you think, you make it VERY difficult to discuss your products when I can't cut and paste text from your site, I'd cut and paste the warning but I could be sued just for cutting and pasting the damn warning, and at the rate your deleting material at your site there won't be much to cut and paste)

Anyway,
On your site Here You explain Phase change materials and PCM+ and how PCM was developed for satellite use. (In the FAQ regarding your ICE, WATER, AND STEAM comments, How the heck can PCM+ be used in a satellite if water is used, space is cold and apparently PCM+ would have issues with satellites due to h20 being a component, No?


Do you have any actual PCM+ in use in any satellites in Orbit? I know Arctic Silver has contracts with NASA, but seriously are there any satellites with PCM+ in orbit? That concerns me if so. Let's forget about possible heatsinks having corrosion issues, If a satellite falls out of orbit due to PCM+ problems and lands on my noggin I'll be a bit upset.

Ummm if we're regarding PCM+ as a short term enthusiast TIM, what the heck would it be doing on satellites when they have like 10 year service intervals? It doesn't seem to me that any Nanotherm product has made it's name on long term stability, not that that is a bad thing for those of us who swap heatsinks and CPUs around regularly, but that would surely be a major consideration for any deployment in a satellite. Unless we're talking the "Throw it up on an Atlas one week, bring it down the next, to get the stained sheet pictures from Saddams love nest" type satellites.

Road Warrior

RoadWarrior said:

Ummm if we're regarding PCM+ as a short term enthusiast TIM, what the heck would it be doing on satellites when they have like 10 year service intervals? It doesn't seem to me that any Nanotherm product has made it's name on long term stability, not that that is a bad thing for those of us who swap heatsinks and CPUs around regularly, but that would surely be a major consideration for any deployment in a satellite. Unless we're talking the "Throw it up on an Atlas one week, bring it down the next, to get the stained sheet pictures from Saddams love nest" type satellites.

Road Warrior

Click to expand...

If you go to Nanotherms site they mention PCM was developed for satelite use http://www.nanotherm.com/faq My question was regarding PCM+ and satellite current usage

Silversinksam said:

I have to Ask Scott another question. (PS your copyright at your site annoys me to no end btw, it's a bit harsh don't you think, you make it VERY difficult to discuss your products when I can't cut and paste text from your site, I'd cut and paste the warning but I could be sued just for cutting and pasting the damn warning, and at the rate your deleting material at your site there won't be much to cut and paste)

Anyway,
On your site Here You explain Phase change materials and PCM+ and how PCM was developed for satellite use. (In the FAQ regarding your ICE, WATER, AND STEAM comments, How the heck can PCM+ be used in a satellite if water is used, space is cold and apparently PCM+ would have issues with satellites due to h20 being a component, No?


Do you have any actual PCM+ in use in any satellites in Orbit? I know Arctic Silver has contracts with NASA, but seriously are there any satellites with PCM+ in orbit? That concerns me if so. Let's forget about possible heatsinks having corrosion issues, If a satellite falls out of orbit due to PCM+ problems and lands on my noggin I'll be a bit upset.

Click to expand...

SSS,

LOL PCM+ used in satellites?? That's the funniest thing I've heard today. =)

There's not a chance anyone would use PCM+ on satellites, not by a long shot. Nanotherm is an enthusiast's boutique toy grease, not even industrial-grade. I wouldn't even think of putting it in a satellite...

If you read the page Nanotherm really doesn't claim the PCM+ to be used in satellites... If you're trying to micro-analyze (that's Nevin's term) their site you better have a point.

And please, respect Nanotherm's copyRIGHT...

As for water being a component in PCM+ I think it's very inappropriate. It's corrosive and volatile. Shrinkage of the material can be expected when the water evaporates, possibly creating air gaps.

I think that the whole concept of PCM+ is flawed, but it's marketing is aimed at naive overclockers who may falsely associate the "PC" in PCM+ to be similar to the vapor phase change ref cooling systems. People, I'm sure, will fall for this. Ever noticed how many people have those "signal booster" stickers on their cell phones??? In the same way Arctic Silver evokes images of frigid arctic temps for your processor...

Nanotherm, perhaps you could show us pictures of your test equipment, would be interesting to scrutinize... =)

PS. AS Inc. supplies materials for NASA? Really? Proof would be appreciated... I can't imagine something rejected by AMD to be used by NASA...

RonnieG said:

SSS,

LOL PCM+ used in satellites?? That's the funniest thing I've heard today. =)

There's not a chance anyone would use PCM+ on satellites, not by a long shot. Nanotherm is an enthusiast's boutique toy grease, not even industrial-grade. I wouldn't even think of putting it in a satellite...

If you read the page Nanotherm really doesn't claim the PCM+ to be used in satellites... If you're trying to micro-analyze (that's Nevin's term) their site you better have a point.

And please, respect Nanotherm's copyRIGHT...

As for water being a component in PCM+ I think it's very inappropriate. It's corrosive and volatile. Shrinkage of the material can be expected when the water evaporates, possibly creating air gaps.

I think that the whole concept of PCM+ is flawed, but it's marketing is aimed at naive overclockers who may falsely associate the "PC" in PCM+ to be similar to the vapor phase change ref cooling systems. People, I'm sure, will fall for this. Ever noticed how many people have those "signal booster" stickers on their cell phones??? In the same way Arctic Silver evokes images of frigid arctic temps for your processor...

Nanotherm, perhaps you could show us pictures of your test equipment, would be interesting to scrutinize... =)

PS. AS Inc. supplies materials for NASA? Really? Proof would be appreciated... I can't imagine something rejected by AMD to be used by NASA...

Click to expand...

Ronnie, I'm not micro-analyzing anything, I was reading Nanotherms FAQ and read about how PCM was originally developed for Satellite use, and I immediately feared that satellites would start falling out of orbit if PCM+ was possibly starting to freeze up there. I didn't create Nanotherm's website nor content, the inferences regarding satellites were of Nanotherms reference and not mine. Hey I made you laugh didn't I?

I spent a couple hours today researching thermal pastes and making calls so cut me a break.

On a side-note if you would stop barking up the Arctic Silver Tree for 5 seconds you would have read this in the thread you started

(I highlighted the NASA portion so you won't miss it this time)

Nevin said:

Ronnie,

Arctic Silver 5 will outperform Arctic Silver 3.

There you have it from the horse's mouth.

Since we were trying to produce a new compound and completely update our web site at the same time, we concentrated on getting the product right and copied as much text from the old site pages as possible to minimize the time there. We will be updating the site as time allows.

First project is the silver instructions. We added some new info and not all of it reads quite right yet.

I appreciate that you have a vendetta and seem intent at micro-analyzing our site in an attempt to discredit us, but it is time to give it a rest.

If you really want to know how our products perform, talk to some of our customers...

Boeing, NASA, U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force, U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Intel, White Sands Missile Range, JPL, General Dynamics, Satcon, and dozens of others.

Nevin House
Arctic Silver, Inc.

Click to expand...

Now i gotta run and see if I can locate a surplus Kevlar Army Helmut in case satellites start falling out of orbit

Intel uses Arctic silver? In what application? My retail 2.4c Came with the usual PCM pad (Not to be confused with PCM+).

Actually SSS, I believe he read that, and that is where he got the "micro-analyze" and Nasa from, he wants proof, and hearing it fron Nevin isnt proof enough I guess.

Intel uses several different Arctic Silver products with both current and future processors in their various devepmental labs. They purchase directly from us as needed.

Nevin House
Arctic Silver, Inc.

"...For the short and long term testing of prototype materials, batch-to-batch testing of production materials and comparitive testing of competitive compounds, we use a Thermal Equilibrium / Steady State testing rig that we designed and built internally. The test rig is fixtured to use standard AMD HSFs as the cooling device to best simulate the heat transfer mechanism in a PC.

Basically, the HSF is attached to a potted heat source (simulated CPU Die) after application of the thermal compound to be tested. The rig employs 2 K-type thermocouples - one measures Die Temperature and the other measures Ambient Temperature at the intake of the HSF fan. The thermocouples are input to a premium Omega 4 Channel Data Logging / Printing Digital Thermometer..." quoted from Nanotherm

Therefore might one extrapolate from the excerpt/description above; Nanotherm has limited it's thermal testing, to be based on Delta-T measurement using only two K-type thermocoupler (probes), one, on-die (or heatsource) and one, at the Fan-intake? And therefore Nanotherm has expended all of $1500 (including a PC) on it's "cutting edge" (my words) Lab equipment? This to test a potentially water-based product, designed to phase-change? That make the Omega Data Logger the most expensive peice of test equipment they own? Unless you count the PC used to run the software. $599 for the Omega 4-Channel Data Logger Thermocouplers, K-type are relatively inexpensive.

The problem with using Thermocouplers is that the thermocoupler extension cable can itself be excited by temperature. The result is an "artificially" increased reading. The opposite might even be true. Here is a discussion on just this subject.

Does Nanotherm use any of the following testing hardware/ methods, and if not, why?
1.) High Temperature Dilatometer, measuring sintering, phase changes, annealing, and other chemical and/or physical characteristics.
2.) Thermal Properties Analyser (pulse laser)

Below is a photo taken of a 3.0C (lapped) which was sent to me. The previous owner used PCM+ in conjunction with several different coolers. I asked him not to clean it. This photo exemplifies the condition in which I received it after approximately two months of use with PCM+.



Even if the formula can be "saved" I beleive all who purchased the original batch/version, whom are experiencing such "tarnishing" should be able to exchange their un-used portion for the new formula. And considering it's most likely a result of poor quality-control, which might have contributed to some experiencing severe "side-effects," while some experienced none, Nanotherm in good faith should offer to replace unused portions with "New Improved Formula" and provide a complimentary "lapping kit." Since Scott states this is "only a few" peopple, it really wouldn't even be a recall, as he's alluding to everyone else being content.
After all any legitimate business would have "Recall Insurance" and this shouldn't be a huge financial burden. If Recall Insurance wasn't purchased as Nanotherm released what is perhaps one of the most unique, now infamous TIM formula's ever, I would purport they shouldn't even remain in marketing, let alone chemistry. If it's as few cases as Scott purports recallling, repacement, and a complimentary lapping kit shouldn't be any problem. After all Modsynergy seems to be convinced this would certainly be in character. What may be the best, can be eclipsed by it's proprietor's interigity. When introducing such a radical product, one should ensure their character, methodological soundeness, as well as credentials are impeccable. By the by, Nano therm never did answer questions asked about his formal training. As Nanotherm himself, has been answering most of the technical questions, one would pressume he knows more about his product then anyone. If I had my PhD, I'd be more then delighted to share this. In fact if I had my Master's I'd be happy to (be that much closer to my PhD hehe).

I purchased a Krup's cappucino maker, and a year later learned the company may have been responsible for industrializing mass extermination equipment. I never felt the same about that company.

Albeit a far-fetched example, it's no more insultive then Nanotherm's patronizing lexicon example;
in·teg·ri·ty n.
\In*teg"ri*ty\, n. [L. integritas: cf. F. int['e]grit['e]. See Integer, and cf. Entirety.] 1. The state or quality of being entire or complete; wholeness; entireness; unbroken state; as, the integrity of an empire or territory. --Sir T. More.

2. Moral soundness; honesty; freedom from corrupting influence or motive; -- used especially with reference to the fulfillment of contracts, the discharge of agencies, trusts, and the like; uprightness; rectitude.

Before Nevin responded, I was going to mention that it would be plain silly if a company like Intel didn't use AS somewhere in their research or development... It likely isn't the only TIM they play with either.

Ronnie, let me explain to you why AS products are, in your terms "rejected by AMD but used by NASA". Possibly to your surprise, it is very reasonable.

AMD doesn't approve of the use of AS by every pathetic moron and 1337 halfwit that could possibly get their grubby little hands on a warrantied AMD processor - they don't want that fiscal responsibility so they limit their warranty to cover no thermal grease long term. (If I remember correctly, AMD approves one grease for short term testing, but other than that only the stock retail heatsink with phase change material pad is approved.)

Nasa approves of the use of AS products by certain educated employees for certain applications. They perform their own testing for the pastes suitability and they use it themselves - in the same way in which they tested it. Overall, this is a very controllable and observable process.

By accepting AS NASA doesn't have to worry about some 1337 10 year old getting their hands on the stuff and going willy-nilly all over the space shuttle.

Do you still desire proof or are the differences obvious enough to explain sufficiently? I would have expected you to come to this conclusion by yourself... It's fairly obvious. It doesn't make me wonder at all; it just makes sense.

On a seperate note, I posted, basically, this over at the [H] while the forums were down last night:

I wish we could make a head count of PCM users with and without this problem.

Scott is continually claiming this is limited to a handful of people... But I wonder what a handful of people is? And how is he sure that everyone experiencing the problem has reported it to him, so that he is correct in minimalizing the problem? I think it is possible that he could be terribly wrong in claiming the problem is limited to a "handful of people".

There is nothing unique about the setups in which this has been reported - except that PCM+ was used.

This leads me to believe a couple things:

1) This isn't being noticed by a vast majority of people who are using it - they aren't removing their HS or reapplying their grease since application.

2) When this is being noticed, it isn't always being reported.

This reminds me of that semi-famous article dansdata did on thermal goops which still gets tossed around the forums every now and then - it included tooth paste in it's thermal paste test and it faired fine... If you were the right kind of business man, after reading that, the PC enthusiast thermal paste market would look quite attractive. It's not hard to mock good performance if you sacrifice longevity and stability.

Click to expand...

IMOG said:

On a seperate note, I posted, basically, this over at the [H] while the forums were down last night:

Click to expand...

In case your wondering what IMOG is refering to heres a link

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?postid=1025439273#post1025439273

Although the title should read Another vote of Non-confidence for Nanotherm PCM+