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Anyone using Peltiers on their res to chill coolant?

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Cause it doesn't work.

At least not very well for the small scale, limited budget/size/time/... applications we have...


Trying to cool a liquid loop is really hard to do. It'll take two water cooling loops to bring one loop down in temps enough to call it chilling.

TEC # 12715 is about the most powerful TEC you can buy at 40mm or roughly the size of AMD IHS plates. This bad boy you'll have trouble cooling and will take double the rad surface area than you'd expect being capable of producing over 200 watts of heat by itself.

Now lets say you've got a loop chilled with like say 4 or 6 tecs. The only issue with cooling liquid in a loop is that your cooling ALL the other components as well. Meaning your chilling the rads, res pump, tubes and water block at the same time as trying to "chill" or remove the heat from the source IE Cpu. Gotta be the most non effective way I've ever personally tried......

If you do the Math right, anything is possible, but not practical in any way. You'll need a PSU with 20 plus AMPs on a single rail. I can tell you that more than 2 TEC# 12715 will be really hard on any PSU and has the ability to start fires.

Use one TEC right on the heat source and just use the water loop to cool the TEC. Easiest way to go about it and you'll have way less headache. Don't expect to cool any Cpu over 95w effectively. Gotta insulate for condensation just like you would for LN2.

Hope you find TECs as challenging and fun as I do, and don't get discouraged. I've successfully OCed a 6 core FX 6100, http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=731806 but water cooling and even air would produce the same clock speeds, but Not the same temps and voltages used.

There, i fixed it for you :)


Let me add a few things for the readers in general.
We are operating at ambients of 20-25 °C , the thermal throttle of a CPU is what? 80-90 °C ? That is a relative small delta
And we want it to be cheap, silent, light & small

Automotive: lets pick the same ambient 20-25 °C ; operating of coolant: pressurised between 90-130 °C. Thats a bit different delta. But its not the delta making the difference, cause one can argue that one can cross the Nevada desert with an ambient of 40-50 °C. The difference is -besides scale- is that you are moving forward at at least 40-50 to 70 MPH. That is a LOT of air pushed thru the fins. And if you are stationairy, the electric fans kick to overdrive and those are BIG, LOUD fans. And automotive rads are designed for that purpose, not really for "our" purposes.

So, for "our" purposes, if you want to have the same efficiency as automotive, you have to sacrifice : size, sound , money, ....
 
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At least not very well for the small scale, limited budget/size/time/... applications we have...




There, i fixed it for you :)


Let me add a few things for the readers in general.
We are operating at ambients of 20-25 °C , the thermal throttle of a CPU is what? 80-90 °C ? That is a relative small delta
And we want it to be cheap, silent, light & small

Automotive: lets pick the same ambient 20-25 °C ; operating of coolant: pressurised between 90-130 °C. Thats a bit different delta. But its not the delta making the difference, cause one can argue that one can cross the Nevada desert with an ambient of 40-50 °C. The difference is -besides scale- is that you are moving forward at at least 40-50 to 70 MPH. That is a LOT of air pushed thru the fins. And if you are stationairy, the electric fans kick to overdrive and those are BIG, LOUD fans. And automotive rads are designed for that purpose, not really for "our" purposes.

So, for "our" purposes, if you want to have the same efficiency as automotive, you have to sacrifice : size, sound , money, ....

I don't know how automotive relates at all. it is in fact the internal combustion engine uses THREE types of cooling, not one.

OIL - AIR - WATER.

Not only is the scale non comparable, neither is the cooling. This is why you can run an engine at 110F in the summer and it stays at 190F. There's more than one method of cooling.

So unless you can have oil liquid and air cooling on a cpu at the same time, we can start comparing processors and scaling to that of an internal combustion engine.
 
i was just trying to point out - in an overly simplistic manner- why we dont see that many particular applications of automotive heatexhangers (anymore).

Just trying to expand on yr statement "Because it doesn't work " without using the word "false" :)
The statement is not entirily correct, thats all.
 
i was just trying to point out - in an overly simplistic manner- why we dont see that many particular applications of automotive heatexhangers (anymore).

Just trying to expand on yr statement "Because it doesn't work " without using the word "false" :)
The statement is not entirily correct, thats all.

No it's a correct statement. Cooling a loop via TEC to Res does not work. One or even two TECs is not enough to chill a loop in this manor.

I've tried.
 
No it's a correct statement. Cooling a loop via TEC to Res does not work. One or even two TECs is not enough to chill a loop in this manor.

I've tried.

For the record I don't think anyone is suggesting using one or two peltiers. I certainly never did. Also I wasn't asking why we don't see more people using copper automotive heater cores in conjunction with chilled coolant. I was just wondering why, with systems that are needing multiple PC type liquid to air heat exchangers to effectively cool a single machine, we aren't seeing people using a single, large capacity radiator instead of 2 or 3 or 4smaller more expensive PC type radiators. I'm still unclear as to why there aren't more people using automotive heater cores as PC cooling radiators.
 
I'm still unclear as to why there aren't more people using automotive heater cores as PC cooling radiators.
Some of the obvious reasons to me a are looks and the logistics to mount a larger, non 120/140mm sized radiator to things not made to mount. Most people will not modify things to such an extent like that. Most just want a radiator made for the case/benching station we have without drilling or finding/fitting parts to make it work. A larger car/bike heatercore may not fit, can look bad... I can go on. Plenty of reasons why people are not using them.
 
Some of the obvious reasons to me a are looks and the logistics to mount a larger, non 120/140mm sized radiator to things not made to mount. Most people will not modify things to such an extent like that. Most just want a radiator made for the case/benching station we have without drilling or finding/fitting parts to make it work. A larger car/bike heatercore may not fit, can look bad... I can go on. Plenty of reasons why people are not using them.

That does make sense but what about all of the people here who like to modify their stuff and build from scratch? Even on the craziest custom machines I have mostly seen off the shelf PC parts only. The machines that don't even use PC cases are still using PC radiators. I guess it's still easier to use purpose made stuff for those machines but at some point there has to be a guy who needs more heat exchanging capacity than he needs quick compatibility, who decides to step up an order of magnitude and use something that was designed to move a huge amount of heat (relative to a custom PC cooling loop). Where are those guys?
 
That does make sense but what about all of the people here who like to modify their stuff and build from scratch? Even on the craziest custom machines I have mostly seen off the shelf PC parts only. The machines that don't even use PC cases are still using PC radiators. I guess it's still easier to use purpose made stuff for those machines but at some point there has to be a guy who needs more heat exchanging capacity than he needs quick compatibility, who decides to step up an order of magnitude and use something that was designed to move a huge amount of heat (relative to a custom PC cooling loop). Where are those guys?


It has to do with a combination of several things.

For starters, a special "out-of-the-box-thinking" mindset, being able to "see" the potential for other uses of things besides what they are build/created for.
Example, an old (rusted) BBQ grill can still serve as a crude sieve to prevent large objects from entering a drain hole.

You preferably have to be able to "build" the whole thing in your mind.

Most things "evolve" around some idea/object: "I can use this, and add that, so i get that and then i add that; but then i need to resolve the problem this creates"

This builds a whole contraption on top of a (potentially flawed) idea.

You also need to be able to do iterative thinking in that case.
You preferably have to be able to backpedal a bit and improve the previous steps.
At some point you need to go back and say : "i've build all this on that foundation, can i not find a foundation which is better suited for what i want to achieve?"

It means that not only you have to be able to build the whole thing in your head, but also the be able to build the variations in parallel. And cut out the needless convoluted intermediate contraptions.
Not a lot of people can do this, most people start of in one direction and never look back and /or question the path they've chosen. While persistence is a good thing, blind stubborness isn't, as you end up where you didn't want to go.

It helps to know what has been done before, to have some materials knowledge, the limits of those materials & the limits of the laws of physics. It keeps one from galloping straight into the abyss.

Its engineering genius bordering on insanity, it helps if your name is Leonardo or Panemarenko :)


Add to that Time, Budget & convenience

Example_1: for a heater core, i could look up all nearby scrapyards in the yellow pages. Then visit them one by one bringin my trusty crowbar & screwdriver along, and dismantle each & every car,truck, item which looks promising.
Or, i could just go to an automotive center and order the core i need.
Or, i could go to a watercooling site and order the rad i need.

Example_2: Barbs & fittings: a "specialist" WC website/shop in another part of the world, or you local hardware/plumbing supplies store?

It comes down to what you want to pay in Time or Money
Doing one would save time, but will probably be more expensive. Doing the other costs time, but gives "fun" by rambling through scrapyard or wandering through the aisles of the HW store

So, you can see amazing builds centered around some mundane, common parts and ask yourself why this ordinary plain thing is there.

Its either because of :
-that part serves the purpose so well that it doesn't need to be replaced; even thou it looks "out of place"
-the builder wasn't able to look beyond the purpose or alternatives to the object
-time/budget constrains played a role in that step
-plain laziness :)

or a combination thereoff.




Note, all this weird tinking is not to be confused with the marketing department telling engineering that they've announced they'll start selling product XYZ in 3 months and that surely those 3 extra months are enough for engineering to finally solve the little problem of requiring nuclear fission in a shoebox sized contraption to power product XYZ :)
 
That does make sense but what about all of the people here who like to modify their stuff and build from scratch? Even on the craziest custom machines I have mostly seen off the shelf PC parts only. The machines that don't even use PC cases are still using PC radiators. I guess it's still easier to use purpose made stuff for those machines but at some point there has to be a guy who needs more heat exchanging capacity than he needs quick compatibility, who decides to step up an order of magnitude and use something that was designed to move a huge amount of heat (relative to a custom PC cooling loop). Where are those guys?
BobN linked you to one person already, no?

Its just not common and for the vast majority, the benefits do not outweigh the LOE to do it. For example, you wont get any further on an overclock really as you then run into the ability of the CPU/TIM/IHS/BLOCK to dissipate the heat into the loop effectively.

Seems like you want to do it... make it happen! :) :popcorn:
 
BobN linked you to one person already, no?

Its just not common and for the vast majority, the benefits do not outweigh the LOE to do it. For example, you wont get any further on an overclock really as you then run into the ability of the CPU/TIM/IHS/BLOCK to dissipate the heat into the loop effectively.

Seems like you want to do it... make it happen! :) :popcorn:

Nah I'm not really interested in doing it myself. It certainly is much more convenient to use purpose made parts and I don't have the need to move more heat than a 240 is able to do for now. I just have my CPU liquid cooled at the moment and I'll use a sealed 120MM Corsair deal on my GPU so I certainly have no need to use a part that will take all the time and money that using an automotive heater core would eat. I saw a machine somewhere in the pictures thread that included 4 Titan GPUs, CPU, RAM, VRMs, MB chips, and some other stuff in a liquid loop, and had something like 6 or 8 HDDs, and lots of other extra stuff, and the thing was using multiple off the shelf PC radiators. I'm sure, after spending that much money, the builder had a machine that worked very well but that's one of those situations that makes me wonder why a better solution isn't just as available as the smaller, lower capacity radiators. My basic observation here is that current radiators are smaller than they need to be, being that most of the machines beyond standard are having to use multiples of them.
 
there is no shortage of "big" rads ; its all about choices & surface :)

You could deal with OC i7 + 4 Titans with only one 120.2 if you wanted to;
you would only need 4 Deltas @ 6000 RPM in push-pull @ 70 db

Or you could slap a Silver Kryos onto an undervolted celeron and use a Supernova 1260 as rad; it would not even need fans.

Or use Slant/Fins and do convection cooling so wont even need a pump :)

all choices :)
 
note: a bit of recommended reading about the road that leads to solutions , or not.. its the journey that counts :)


4ryan6 : "Exploring Below Ambient Water Cooling",

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/275185-29-exploring-ambient-water-cooling


I saw the thread title and was coming to post this very link but I see that I was too slow.

That linked thread is a pretty good read and it covers his journey from the use of frozen gallon jugs inserted into an insulated cooler thru his current set up of using a pair of TECs to cool the water in his CPU loop.

There is also a second thread devoted strickly to the use of the peltier with an insulated reservoir (the insulated reservoir, along with insulated loop tubing is basically the "trick" to making this work). The two threads have links to each other, but the posts are not copied from one to the other. This second thread was started after the system was operational for something in the range of 8-9 months, so it is not a "hypothetical" system...it is a functioning daily driver / gaming machine with a pair of GTX 580s (these are on a separate non-peltier water cooled loop).

Link to the second thread:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/282844-29-peltier-water-cooling#t2033960

The way Ryan has worked it up, he is using it strictly for cooling his CPU at temps just above the dew point (in his air conditioned office) so that he doesn't have to insulate the components...this is by design as he did not want to deal with condensation concerns.

He has two independent 50mm peltier units (each rated at Qmax of around 245W), each air cooled by a TRUE with a single fan in a pull configuration. These TECs are located just before the insulated reservoir and are sandwiched between a water block with a modified housing (to improve flow in order to reduce icing concerns) and the TRUE. One unit runs at start up and the second unit can be toggled on/off as his cooling needs change. The water in the block picks up the cold and dumps the chilled water into the reservoir which is approximately 2-liters in size. This cold water is then pumped via a D5 thru insulated tubing leading to the water block on the CPU. His system does not use the TEC to cool the CPU, but instead uses it to chill water stored in an insulated reservoir, but instead of cooling the TEC with a second loop and radiators, he cools them with air. Here he differs from most TEC chillers, both by the use of air cooling and the use of the insulated reservoir.

Again, let me state this again that this is a functioning system, not a "will this work?" concept. So while not exactly a TEC on the Reservoir (although I think that Ryan did attempt something like that at one point), it in at least in the ballpark, right? :)

Seriously guys, go read those linked thread...it makes for some interesting reading.
 
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I saw the thread title and was coming to post this very link but I see that I was too slow.

That linked thread is a pretty good read and it covers his journey from the use of frozen gallon jugs inserted into an insulated cooler thru his current set up of using a pair of TECs to cool the water in his CPU loop.

There is also a second thread devoted strickly to the use of the peltier with an insulated reservoir (the insulated reservoir, along with insulated loop tubing is basically the "trick" to making this work). The two threads have links to each other, but the posts are not copied from one to the other. This second thread was started after the system was operational for something in the range of 8-9 months, so it is not a "hypothetical" system...it is a functioning daily driver / gaming machine with a pair of GTX 580s (these are on a separate non-peltier water cooled loop).

Link to the second thread:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/282844-29-peltier-water-cooling#t2033960

The way Ryan has worked it up, he is using it strictly for cooling his CPU at temps just above the dew point (in his air conditioned office) so that he doesn't have to insulate the components...this is by design as he did not want to deal with condensation concerns.

He has two independent 50mm peltier units (each rated at Qmax of around 245W), each air cooled by a TRUE with a single fan in a pull configuration. These TECs are located just before the insulated reservoir and are sandwiched between a water block with a modified housing (to improve flow in order to reduce icing concerns) and the TRUE. One unit runs at start up and the second unit can be toggled on/off as his cooling needs change. The water in the block picks up the cold and dumps the chilled water into the reservoir which is approximately 2-liters in size. This cold water is then pumped via a D5 thru insulated tubing leading to the water block on the CPU. His system does not use the TEC to cool the CPU, but instead uses it to chill water stored in an insulated reservoir, but instead of cooling the TEC with a second loop and radiators, he cools them with air. Here he differs from most TEC chillers, both by the use of air cooling and the use of the insulated reservoir.

Again, let me state this again that this is a functioning system, not a "will this work?" concept. So while not exactly a TEC on the Reservoir (although I think that Ryan did attempt something like that at one point), it in at least in the ballpark, right? :)

Seriously guys, go read those linked thread...it makes for some interesting reading.

This pretty well proves that my idea works in real life. His setup is the same as the one I'm thinking of except for the difference of having a TEC on a water block rather than a reservoir. I think my planned configuration even has some efficiency over that one. So where are the naysayers and guys who were sure it couldn't work?
 
Haven't studied your idea so I won't comment one way, or another, other than to reply to your comment about your approach having efficiencies over Ryans. You are proposing a copper, or other metalic reservoir. It would have to be of sufficient size to avoid having the water inside the unit freeze. Have you priced copper lately? Ryan's approach is to use a water block to pick up the cold and then storing a sufficiently large enough volume of water inside an insulated reservoir made out of substantially cheaper PVC. Not saying your approach wouldn't work, but you have to custom fabricate a metal reservoir with flat sides for the peltiers to contact and you have to have mounting mechanisms to be able to clamp those peltier units to that reservoir with something in the range of 300 PSI. Even if it were to work better, accomplishing all that becomes somewhat complicated in real life.

The one thing that Ryan's adventures did reveal is that in the end you can put all the theories aside, only actual implementation and testing will reveal whether something will "work", but also whether or not it is practical and if it will accomplish your stated goals.

As for the naysayers...there were those that chimed in saying it wouldn't work AFTER Ryan had his system up and running for about 9 months! Those were the same type of people that couldn't accept the world wasn't flat and that not all thinking has to be done from within the confines of the box.

Good luck with your project, should you decide to pursue it...but if you don't, then don't be too critical of the naysayers, because unless you actually get it up and running then all you have are your theories and opinions vs. theirs.

I will tell you that Ryan made an attempt at putting a TEC on a reservoir and he did not have very much success with his, so I'm telling you this not to discourage you, but to point you to his thread to see what he did and how it might differ from what you're proposing, etc. so that you could benefit from his experiences. He did not use a metallic box, so there are enough basic differences that might make your approach better.

Edit:
Going back to the size of the reservoir. Some type of antifreeze could be used to circumvent the water freezing, but what you are suggesting would appear to be to turn the reservoir into the equivalent of the chiller block. Give consideration to the purpose / design of a chiller block which is to expose all of the un-cooled water to the cooling effects of the TEC's cold side. With that reasoning in mind, long channels are cut thru the blocks with the purpose of allowing all of the water to pass thru these cooling channels so that all of it is cooled equally (see link below). If you dump your water from the return line directly into a reservoir not all of it will be subjected to the same contact with the TEC's cold plate so that is something that you would need to address. A heat exchanger inside the reservoir perhaps? Lots of considerations, but when you strip it all down, your proposal is really very similar to what Ryan was doing to begin with...sticking a pair of frozen gallon jugs into a Rubbermaid cooler that he used as a reservoir...you just replace the ice jugs with peltier units attached to the outside. You can see this in the first few pages of the link provided at post #53 above.

Sample chiller block:
http://thermo-electric-cooling.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=17

And please don't overlook that fact that a key ingredient of what makes Ryan's design work is the use of the insulated reservoir to hold the chilled water and keep it cold, even after the system has been shut off for hours.
 
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I did run a reservoir cooling attempt myself but it was an internal/external mounting situation using an XSPC dual bay acrylic reservoir and was not directly attaching the peltier to the side of a metal reservoir.

I'm pretty sure that won't work anyway because to gain useable cold, the cold pickup has to be concentrated and confined to a certain area, the area of the reservoir that is outside the direct cold will tend to heat the cold area coming from the peltier and diminish the cold buildup.

That's why 4Ryan6 used the water blocks to capture the cold from a confined area, (the water blocks themselves), then the buildup of cold could be stored in the reservoir and used to cool the CPU.

By the way, I am 4Ryan6 from Toms Hardware, so I can speak for what he was thinking at the time, I've been a member here since may of 2011, but have not been active here.
 
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