$350 to spend on new CPU/MB/RAM

I posted this budget on the AMD forums and I was going to a Epox nForce2 MB, AMD XP1800+, 256MB Corsair 3200 CS2 RAM. Most people would assume that at least 1900MHz is higly possible on air cooling. Before I throw down, I just wanted to here from Intel owners what your thoughts are.

I'm not into heavy OC'ing, but I'm OK with tinkering a little bit in order to squeeze out a little more performance than what I paid for... (No hardcore OC, cuz I can't afford to fry components). I assume thats the majority of people in here.

Cant' I just buy a P4 2.0GHz 512k CPU and a decent MB to go with it? What about RAM? I haven't done much research into Intel as I've owned this AMD rig for almost a year now...

How much performance difference will there be between the above AMD XP1800+ system vs. a P4 2.0Ghz system (assuming its with value MB/RAM)...??? And since I'm going with a value MB/RAM setup (i.e. ECS MB/Samsung RAM) I won't be able to do much OC'ing anyway... In addition, the P4 (not OC'd should also run a little cooler, right?)

I sleep better with stable performance, not extreme performance.

Your input is much appreciated! I plan on spending $$$ this weekend! Thanks!

First off, if this is a budget rig, get a 1.8A CPU instead of the 2.0A. Overclocking a 1.8a to 2.4 gig (133 FSB) is a no brainer and can be done with low voltage and minimal cooling.

However, the AMD CPU and mobo will still probably be a little cheaper than the P-4, just be aware of that fact. If money is a major concern, you might reconsider AMD. On the other hand, Intel chipset mobos are known to be rock stable and high quality.

DDR RAM will cost the same with either AMD or P-4 system (Samsung PC2700 will probably be adequate for modest overclocking). Obviously, the better your RAM, the better your performance will be and that's one thing that can be carried over during upgrades.

Moral of the story, I think the P-4 system will edge out the AMD system for performance, especially if you can run the memory at the highest settings. It'll cost a little more for the P-4 system. Now it's your choice... cheap or fast and stable.

Like Batboy says, the 1.8A would be your best choice for Intel based system. Chip can be had for around $140 most anywhere and will o/c quite nicely. Mine is at 2610 with no problem at all. I will tell you that getting an XP 1800+ to 1900mhz is close to impossible even on water cooling. Low 1700's maybe but high 1600's is probably as high as you'll get on air.

I ran AMD and my last 2 were 1800's before I built my 1.6A system. Either one will work well. I needed to get the P4 beyound about 2200 to start beating the AMD which unlocked was running at 1650 (11x150).

Which ever way you go make sure to buy GOOD ram and a SOLID motherboard. Skimp on either one and the best cpu in the world will not work well. Good luck

Pntgrd said:

Like Batboy says, the 1.8A would be your best choice for Intel based system. Chip can be had for around $140 most anywhere and will o/c quite nicely. Mine is at 2610 with no problem at all. I will tell you that getting an XP 1800+ to 1900mhz is close to impossible even on water cooling. Low 1700's maybe but high 1600's is probably as high as you'll get on air.

I ran AMD and my last 2 were 1800's before I built my 1.6A system. Either one will work well. I needed to get the P4 beyound about 2200 to start beating the AMD which unlocked was running at 1650 (11x150).

Which ever way you go make sure to buy GOOD ram and a SOLID motherboard. Skimp on either one and the best cpu in the world will not work well. Good luck

Click to expand...

i think he is talking bout getting a tbread

Value on P4 systems has never been higher. My recomendation would be an Abit BD7-II, Kingston Value Ram PC2700, and a retail 1.8a cpu. I have this board and ram with a 1.6a, but 1.6a's are so rare these days you can get the 1.8a cheaper. The BD7-II motherboard will do 175MHz + fsb, and being an 845e board has a 3:4 cpu:memory ratio. The Kingston Value Ram PC2700 is proven to operate at 160-163MHz fsb with the 3:4 ratio selected. This produces 428-436MHz memory clock rates and terrific performance. It even tolerates cas2 at these speeds. If your 1.8a will tolerate 160fsb (most recent ones will) you will be sailing along at nearly 2.9GHz. This system will outperform an Athlon XP running at 1700-1800MHz on all nearly all tasks, with folding being one area where the AMD rig has the advantage.

BD7-II------------90 bucks
P4-1.8a----------143 bucks
256MB VR2700----70 bucks
--------------------------------
----------------> 303 dollar speed demon

If you have the extra money you can step up to the 512MB Value Ram PC2700 for another 70 dollars. It clocks up just as well as the 256MB version.

I used to recommend Athlon XP's for people on a tight budget (and they are still a bit cheaper), but P4's these days provide such stellar performance, refinement, and value that they really challange AMD on the bang for the buck quotient. Intel chip fabrication technology is vastly better, and as such even the inexpensive P4's have huge clock rate in them. At the 300 dollar level there is no reason to settle for an Athlon XP, you are into P4 territory.

PS-before some kind of a flame war ensues, I am not saying that Athlon XP's are slow or inferior. They just don't have the clock rate needed to truly compete with the above setup unless you step up to a 2200+, or better yet a 2400+. These chips drive the cost up beyond the budget catagory.

Thanks guys! I've decided that I'm going to get a P4 system... Although I was referring to the TBred, I will still have to use moderate-high level of OC to reach 1900-2000 MHz, which will be so-so in about 4 months from now...

I think I'm going to shell out some more money and get the ASUS P4S8X MB. Do you think I should still get the RAM mentioned above? What about P4 2.4GHz 533? Since this MB supports 533, should I get a 533MHz chip or stick with the stock 1.6GHz chip that you mentioned above and wait for the higher P4 533MHz chips to drop in next 4-5 months???

Larva's got some good advice there. I'd read that post twice if I were buying.

guppie said:

I think I'm going to shell out some more money and get the ASUS P4S8X MB. Do you think I should still get the RAM mentioned above? What about P4 2.4GHz 533? Since this MB supports 533, should I get a 533MHz chip or stick with the stock 1.6GHz chip that you mentioned above and wait for the higher P4 533MHz chips to drop in next 4-5 months???

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The P4S8X is a good board, _but_ AFAIK it does not give you the option to lock your PCI/AGP buses. This limits your overclocking potential somewhat. I'd recommend the slightly cheaper P4PE (or even the $90 Albatron PX845PEV Pro) over the P4S8X. The 1.8A will still be your best bet if you plan to OC it -- as batboy said, shouldn't have any trouble hitting 2.4G with a 133Mhz fsb anyways.

cursor said:

Larva's got some good advice there. I'd read that post twice if I were buying.

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agreed. you can even get BD7II's from newegg refurbed for 40 bucks further cutting the cost while still having the same base system as i do. and you can see how well mine performs.

If you see a P4S8X, turn and run

The P4S8X board is very troubled, like all SiS 648 boards. The earlier P4S533 with the SiS 645DX is worlds better, the newer board offers no useful new features (except the PCI/AGP lock) but a lot more problems. Even good SiS 64x boards like the P4S533 are not great overclockers. Although a nice stable board with good features my P4S533 lost it at 151fsb. Perfect at 150, perfectly awful at 151. I put a BD7-II in its place and got 162fsb with the same ram and cpu.

By all means don't make the mistake I did. Buy an Intel 845e or 845pe board. Period. The VIA and SiS alternatives don't measure up. I read the favorable test reports on the P4S533, and it does perform well... unitl you stick a 845 board in its place and all the sudden clock rates and scores go up.

As I said before, the 1.6a is a done deal. They do still exist in the channel but cost more than 1.8a's. The 1.8a and the 2.4b are the same cpu, just with different fsb encoded in the chip parameters. 2.4b's may give you a little more clock rate potential, but there is no guarantee of it. The only real reason to get a 2.4b over the 1.8a is that C1 stepping 2.4b's are available, while 1.8a C1's are still very rare. But both chips are the same 18 multiplier northwood, and we will set the fsb manually so it doesn't really matter whether the chip is a 100 or 133 fsb model.

Let me give you a list of boards that are known to excel in an overclocked environment:

845e boards
----------------
1) Abit BD7-II
2) Asus P4B533
3) Abit IT7 Max
4) Abit IT7 Max2

845pe boards
-----------------
1) Abit BE7
2) Albatron 845pe board (whatever they call it)
3) Asus P4PE
4) Abit IT7 Max2 v2

Any of these board will do the job fine. The cheapest of the lot is the BD7-II, and it definately overclocks well. But if you must spend more, get one of the Asus 845 boards, or the Abit IT7 Max2 v2. Avoid all non 845 boards like the P4S533 and P4S8X.

Use the Kingston Value Ram PC2700. It may prove wise to get a C1 2.4b, but of course it does drive the cost up. If you can afford the board of your choice, 512MB of value ram, and the 2.4b then go for it. If you wish to cut costs the first move is to use the BD7-II, the second would be to step down to the 1.8a, and the third would be to use only 256MB.

The only caveat to the above setup is that the ram will only tolerate 430MHz so 160-163MHz fsb is the max we want to run. With my 1.6a, this is 2.6GHz, with a 1.8a or 2.4b, it is 2.9GHz. I recently tested a B0 2.4b, and it did 3004MHz with little drama on my BD7-II. This is a 166fsb, and the ram wouldn't take it at 3:4. Running 166fsb with the 1:1 memory setting was slower than my 1.6a at 2600MHz with the 3:4. I backed the fsb back down to 162MHz, set it back to 3:4, for 2.9GHz. Since 2.9GHz is the most we want to run with this combo getting a C1 chip isn't as crucial, as most late model 1.8a's will do this, and virtually all late model 2.4b's will. What would really be best would be a C1 2.0a, but who knows when we will see such a thing. It would yield 3200MHz from the 160fsb, a realistic expectation for C1 core chips.

We can make a faster system than this if spend more money. The above setup is very good, but ram limited. If we want to really blow the budget we can use Corsair XMS 3200C2 ram or the new Kingston HyperX PC3500 and hope to push the fsb past 160MHz. But this almost doubles the ram cost, and requires some luck for the cpu to stand the resultant clock rate. The performance doesn't increase as much as the cost does.

Re: If you see a P4S8X, turn and run

larva said:

The 1.8a and the 2.4b are the same cpu, just with different fsb encoded in the chip parameters. 2.4b's may give you a little more clock rate potential, but there is no guarantee of it. The only real reason to get a 2.4b over the 1.8a is that C1 stepping 2.4b's are available, while 1.8a C1's are still very rare. But both chips are the same 18 multiplier northwood, and we will set the fsb manually so it doesn't really matter whether the chip is a 100 or 133 fsb model.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the in-depth info! Definitely cleared up the MB choices. I just thought the P4S8X would give me some room for future upgrades. I thought about it more and I don't think I'm actually going to buy 2 new serial ATA drives and the latest 8X AGP card since I just bought this GF4 Ti4200 last month...

This may sound stupid, but I obviously don't know alot: the 2.4b is marketed as 533MHz, whereas the 1.8a is not, doesn't that make for a better chip and like you said, C1 1.8a chips are rare, so there a good possiblity that I'll get stuck with a chip that won't OC? Damn, if I can hit 2.7GHz (18@150) with 1.8a on air, then thats pretty sweet and its economical...

By saving some money, I was thinking of buying Corsair XMS C2 RAM - you think thats a better choice for obtaining 160+ fsb?

Oh yeah, I don't see any refurb BD7-II MBs. Where can I get it cheapest?

Hehehe, he went from saying this in the first post "I'm not into heavy OC'ing", but he's now drooling and wishing for a 2.7 gig overclock from a 1.8A. Hey boys, looks like he's hooked. These awesome Northwoods will do it to a guy.

Just about every 1.8A CPUs nowadays will do an easy 2.4 gig. With some modest cooling mods, 2.5 to 2.6 gig is a good probability. Certainly there are several that will do 2.7 to 2.8, but there's no guarantees. The higher you try to go, the more cooling you'll need.

Larva is right, basically the 1.8A and the 2.4B is the same CPU and the same multiplier, except the 1.8A is lots cheaper. Run a 1.8A at 133 FSB (533 MHz with the quad pumped bus) and "tada" you have a 2.4B.

You want a basic inexpensive, stable mobo that overclocks good? Go for the Abit BD7. You want a awesome mobo with all the bells and whistles and serial ATA and on-board LAN and 4 channel RAID and 6 channel sound, etc, etc.? Go for the Abit IT7 Max2 version 2.0.

Personally, I like the Corsair XMS PC3200, but it's a little more expensive. It's better to get the best RAM you can afford though, since you can use it in your next system.

Re: Re: If you see a P4S8X, turn and run

Originally posted by guppie

Thanks for the in-depth info! Definitely cleared up the MB choices. I just thought the P4S8X would give me some room for future upgrades. I thought about it more and I don't think I'm actually going to buy 2 new serial ATA drives and the latest 8X AGP card since I just bought this GF4 Ti4200 last month...

Click to expand...

Understand that AGP 8X is pointless. There is enough ram on modern cards to where AGP texturing barely exists. And if you do run into a situation where the onboard memory is insufficient and AGP texturing does enter the picture the frame rate drops to basically useless levels. The true benefit of AGP is that it provides a much faster bus for the video card, but the 4X rate is fast enough for the current crop of cards, and the next generation as well. AGP 8X is a bit of hype designed to spur upgrades. And on the P4 platform, all of the AGP 8X supporting chipsets are junk, making it a costly mistake to pursue 8X on a P4.
Intel's dual channel DDR chipset, Granite Bay, does support 8X, but is apparantly not ready for sale. Personally I would wait for Granite Bay to prove to be any real advantage before commiting to one, as it appears its life will be very short as Intel pushes the FSB higher than what it is designed for. Once you get the ram on a 845 machine running well past 400MHz, the bandwidth is great enough to give Granite Bay a really hard time.

Originally posted by guppie
This may sound stupid, but I obviously don't know alot: the 2.4b is marketed as 533MHz, whereas the 1.8a is not, doesn't that make for a better chip and like you said, C1 1.8a chips are rare, so there a good possiblity that I'll get stuck with a chip that won't OC? Damn, if I can hit 2.7GHz (18@150) with 1.8a on air, then thats pretty sweet and its economical...

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The fact that it is marketed as 533fsb means absolutely nothing, except it will run faster than it's 400fsb siblings at stock settings. Since modern P4 chips have so much clock in them than they are rated for stock settings are somewhat irrelevent. My 1.6a is a 400fsb device, but runs at 640MHz fsb.

It is true that when 2.4GHz was a challange for P4's that clock speed potential would be greater than a 1.8a. But in reality 2.6GHz has been no sweat for virtually any P4 made in the last 8-9 months. My 1.6a had a pack date in March, and does 2.6GHz. All the 1.8a's 2.0a's, and 2.4b's I've tried in the last 3 months have run 2.7GHz and up. The BO 2.4b was the best, at 3004MHz on 1.65V. It is true that buying a C1 2.4b will probably give you 3.2GHz capability, but it is somewhat problematic to get the 3:4 multiplier stable at the extremely high fsb needed to get a 2.4b there. You can run an 845pe board and use the 4:5 multiplier and get more fsb if you must try for an extreme overclock.

Originally posted by guppie
By saving some money, I was thinking of buying Corsair XMS C2 RAM - you think thats a better choice for obtaining 160+ fsb?

Oh yeah, I don't see any refurb BD7-II MBs. Where can I get it cheapest?

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Well, this started out as a 350 dollar purchase. I gave my recipe for that price range. Give me more money, I will give you more speed. Here's what I would do with a little more cash:

Asus P4PE/L 845pe-------130 bucks
P4-2.4b------------------189 bucks
512MB Kingston VR2700---149 bucks
---------------------------------------------
------------------------->468 for a shot at 3GHz (maybe 3.2 if you can get a C1 chip)

For this scenario a 845pe board is useful because the ram will limit us pretty severly at 3:4. I suggest the Asus rather than the BE7 Abit because the Asus will put more voltage on the cpu and ram, which is important if we expect to exceed 160fsb by any useful amount. 845e's only have 1:1 and 3:4, so we would have to buy ram that would 450+ MHz, and this varies between expensive and impossible, depending on luck. Assuming we get a C1 chip and it has 3200MHz in it, this requires a 178MHz fsb. The 4:5 multiplier of the pe chipset would produce 445MHz on the ram at 178fsb. The Value Ram should do this much with the extra voltage the Asus board can put on the ram versus the BD7/BE7. If we want 3:4 at 178, this means the ram runs at 475MHz, and I feel this is impossible with the Value Ram PC2700. This necessitates moving to expensive ram, and even so it may not get all the way to 475.

Asus P4PE/L 845pe-------------130 bucks
P4-2.4b------------------------189 bucks
512MB Corsair XMS PC3200C2---182 bucks
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------->501 dollars

Many of the extreme fsb 845 guys swear the Corsair 3200C2 is actually better than the the 3500. Fortunately the price on the 3200C2 has dropped to $182. The 3500 is $223. I also think the Kingston Hyper X PC3500 has potential, it is $225, bringing the total to 544, a long way from 350...

All of these prices are from www.newegg.com, the premier online parts seller at present. But bear in mind they will not guarantee a C1 chip, you may have to go elsewhere to get a guaranteed C1 example until the B0's are all gone.

Newegg has the BD7-II brand new for 90 bucks. With a 1.8a and a 512MB Kingston VR PC2700, this is a 382 dollar setup at newegg prices, a lot closer to the spirit of your original post. You can pretty much count on 2.7GHz, meaning 150fsb and 3:4 induced 400MHz on the ram. If you are lucky the chip will have 2.9 in it, allowing 162 fsb, putting the ram at 432MHz. The absolute worst case is the cpu only does 2.6GHz, which would be a 145 fsb, meaning the ram speed would be at 387MHz. Personally I feel certain 2.7GHz would result, with 2.8 likely and perhaps 2.9 if the cpu gods smile on you.

So there are the choices in excruciating detail. From 300 bucks to 550 we can put together P4 rigs of 2.7-3.2GHz. Also bear in mind a good heatsink would be advisable if you want to push the chips this hard, I recommend the Thermalright AX-478 and a 40-50cfm 80mm fan. This would run about 40 bucks shipped. So there you go, the choice is yours. Just bear in mind that there will be very little difference in application performance between the various combinations, as we are fairly video card limited with anything past 2.6GHz. I ran my BD7-II back to back with my 1.6a at 2.6GHz and the 2.4b at 2.9GHz. the difference was only about 15fps in Q3 and about 600 points on 3DMark. Stronger video cards like the 9700 ATI or NV30 will allow the extra cpu power to pay off more handsomely though.

phew! Thanks so much guys... This is exactly what I wanted to hear. I'll let you guys know what I get and how my MODERATE/HUMBLE OC goes. I was getting kinda carried away with the OC'ing and started to stray off from my original plan.

Yeah, these darn P4's can make you drool!

One last question: I was looking at either the Asus P4B533 or Abit BD7-II. Is there any difference between these? Seems like they are identical. The Asus refurb can be had for $40 less, hence I'm within budget still!

P4B533 - Supports all socket 478 P4 processors, Intel® i845E and ICH4 chipset, 3 DIMMS slots for up to 2GB of PC2100/PC1600 DDR SDRAM, AGP 4X slot, 6 PCI slots, 2 ATA100 supports up to 4 IDE, ATX

BD7II - Supports Intel Pentium® 4 Socket478 processor, Intel 845E (ICH4) chipset,Supports AGP 4X 1.5V, Supports 3 184 pin DDR DIMM, 1 AGP4X slot,5 PCI slots, ATX

As they said, get a motherboard with Intel chipset.
Albatron's cheapo 845PE is what people have recommended to me and I have ordered one.
I would even say that from what I've heard this board is on par or better than the BD7-II while still costing less.

guppie said:

One last question: I was looking at either the Asus P4B533 or Abit BD7-II. Is there any difference between these? Seems like they are identical. The Asus refurb can be had for $40 less, hence I'm within budget still!

Click to expand...

The P4B533 is a great board. It generally overclocks just as well as the BD7-II, and has much more accurate voltage and temperature monitoring. It will also put more voltage on the cpu and ram. These two of the most successful overclocking boards out there, with the more expensive Abit IT7Max being the other.

Myself I would not buy a refurb motherboard. Anytime I have RMA'd a motherboard, if the replacement was not brand new I had trouble with it. From my experience troubled boards are still troubled, even if sent back to the manufacturer. The only hope for these "refurb" boards to be successful is that there was nothing wrong with them in the first place, but simply returned to the vendor. If they are troubled enough to have ever been sent back to the manufacturer, you don't want them.

A lot of people have had good luck with refurbs, but it does take luck. If any important accessories are missing or the board doesn't work right the cost of returning it or getting the accessory will eat up most of the possible savings. On the other hand many get perfectly working boards that are complete at a great price, but there certainly is a risk involved.

The Albatron PE board does look enticing, with most users of it very happy. It certainly is priced right. Being PE, it does bring a 4:5 cpu:memory ratio to the ball game, but this will not be needed if you go with a 1.8a (unless C1) and the Value Ram PC2700.

Sorry, Larva, one last question:

The P4 1.8A Northwood C1 chips are hard to find... So did you say that I could get any P4 1.8A Northwood chip (478 512K) chip and be OK with a modest OC (i.e. 2.4GHz)? You were just pointing out that the C1 stepping is the bomb, but good luck finding it...???

Any 1.8A from a high volume retailer will be fine (so you can get one will a fairly recent pack date). The C1 stepping is a little better, but there is nothing wrong with the older B0 stepping. A friend of mine that only does modest overclocking bought two 1.8A CPUs and two Abit BD7 mobos last August on my recomendation and both would easily do a rock stable 2.5 gig with 1.6v using the stock retail heatsink and Arctic Silver. The newer cores are even better on average. I'll give you a 99% guarantee it'll do 2.4 gig with low voltage.

batboy said:

Any 1.8A from a high volume retailer will be fine (so you can get one will a fairly recent pack date). The C1 stepping is a little better, but there is nothing wrong with the older B0 stepping. A friend of mine that only does modest overclocking bought two 1.8A CPUs and two Abit BD7 mobos last August on my recomendation and both would easily do a rock stable 2.5 gig with 1.6v using the stock retail heatsink and Arctic Silver. The newer cores are even better on average. I'll give you a 99% guarantee it'll do 2.4 gig with low voltage.

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I just got a 1.8a from newegg.....it's crappy.

146fsb at 1.8v real is not what I would call nice.

I've seen much better from the 1.8a's....

mica

What exactly should I be looking for printed on the chip that denotes it as a C1 stepping CPU? There is a computer expo here in Ft. Lauderdale and I may try to check it out and see if any of those guys have one laying around. I just don't know what I'm looking for...