An idea

JoT · Dec 16, 2002

Dunno if this should be in Extreme or not, but it seems to fit in both places.

Would it be so hard to, instead of using a refrigerator, use a small vat (tub, pool, whatever you want to call it) of LN2? Stick your rad in the LN2 and insulate your system and voila--instant sub-zero cooling.

If the issue of the LN2 making everything too cold is brought up, can't you dilute it somehow? Or maybe use something similar to LN2, but not quite as cold?

Just an idea, which sounds really easy to carry out

Edit: Forgot to mention that the water/coolant would of course be set up to withstand the sub-zero temps without freezing (obvious, but worth mentioning in case anyone tries to point it out)

Bender · Dec 16, 2002

Sounds like fun but the hardest part would be getting a liquid that does not freeze. Most LN2 projects simply use a copper cup on top of the cpu to keep the LN2 in place. Neither solution is very permanent but it would be great fun to play around with.

NeoMoses · Dec 16, 2002

being a paintball player, I have thought of similar idea. I thought of using a 68 C.I. 3500 psi tank filled with CO2 and expanding it through a couple of small channels in the WB directly over the die. The CO2 would never be in direct contact with the water, just the WB. i abandoned this idea since it is not a long term solution, and would probably last only a few hours.

JoT · Dec 16, 2002

I'm going to ask a science teacher about this tomorrow, he should be able to tell me what sort of liquid can go to -30F(or somewhere thereabout) and not destroy everything

BTW guys, what sort of tubing would you recommend for such low temps, would tygon be able to handle it? (I'm still a newbie to WCing, so I don't know this sort of stuff off the top of my head)

I'm going to try and make this a permanent setup; seal the rad in a res of whatever I'm cooling with, and never worry about fans on the rad or high temps again

(this is going to be interesting to explain to him: "how low does LN2 go in temperature?" "---, why?" "I'm liquid-cooling my computer" "you're joking, right?" I actually have had many people stare at me for a while when I explained it to them

)

frostmeister · Dec 16, 2002

Hmm; CO2 goes directly from a gas to a solid - dry ice - and so wouldn't be any good for a coolant on a waterblock. Your paintball tank would probably only work for about 15mins tops, as I've discharged a CO2 fire extinguisher for fire marshall training in about that time. It's damn noisy, and then you've got to vent the gas somewhere so you don't suffocate...
As for tygon for liquid nitrogen, have you seen roses dipped into liquid nitrogen? you can crumble them in your hands - wearing gloves of course, as they become so brittle. You'd need metal tubing to pipe coolant that cold. Probably a special metal alloy too, as the brittleness affects even metals at that temperature.

Skulemate · Dec 16, 2002

Jo T, I think that there are quite a few aspects of this that you haven't thought through. For instance, suppose you do solve the coolant and tubing problems... you do realise that the liquid nitrogen is still going to boil off as you dump the heat into it via your radiator, don't you? Insulating it will help reduce the amount of liquid nitrogen that boils off due to the ambient temperature, but it's not going to help you violate any laws of thermodynamics.

[Edit] It took less than 30 seconds of Googling to find the answer to your "how low does LN2 go in temperature" question: nitrogen boils at a temperature of 77 kelvin (-320°F).

aenigma · Dec 16, 2002

Yeah LN2 is too cold for waterchilling, this also belongs in extreme cooling.
If you want a good cheap solution to chilling using a total waste system, propane is the way to go.Boils at -42f and it is cheap.Much much better to make a waterchiller that is long term though.Not that hard either if your willing to do it.

If you just wan't a total loss propane system, heres what you do.Goto a store that sells adapters, get one that adapts a 3/8" flare fitting to the propane tank.Flare a long piece of copper pipe.Bend it to a spiral, run it through your insulated resivour, and let it exit somewhere(preferrably outside as propane smells horrible)then turn it upside down, connect it to the propane tank and open the valve to whatever setting you want.Voila, total waste water chiller that will get to maybe -42f, but it wont last too long...But the 20lb tanks are pretty cheap.

Have fun

PS If you plan on doing some real waterchilling, feel free to drop by the http://www.phase-change.com forums.

NeoMoses · Dec 16, 2002

frostmeister said:
Hmm; CO2 goes directly from a gas to a solid - dry ice - and so wouldn't be any good for a coolant on a waterblock. Your paintball tank would probably only work for about 15mins tops, as I've discharged a CO2 fire extinguisher for fire marshall training in about that time. It's damn noisy, and then you've got to vent the gas somewhere so you don't suffocate...

I've actually thought about this quite a bit. Yes, suffocation would suck. The C02 stored in PB gun tanks is in liquid form, not solid. My idea would consist of piping the liqid CO2 directly to the block, then expanding or boiling the liquid into a vapor. From experience, a 68 C.I. tank full of CO2 will shoot around 4000 shots from a paintball gun (different for all PB guns). When doing this, the entire gun will be iced over if shot continuously for about 15 minutes.

My idea was to regulate the amount of liquid allowed to evaporate in the Waterblock to much less than that allowed through a PB gun. It should last at least an hour or two if done properly, and because of the limited amount evaporated, it would not be nearly as noisy as a fire extinguisher. Although I quickly realized that this idea had little merit for everyday use, it would be handy for those wanting to make some impressive benchmarks to show off their brand new chips, just like LN2 cooling.

My hopes for posting ideas like this are to inspire new ideas in other people. Many of my ideas that work well were inspired by other people's ideas that were "unfeasible" or "impossible."

aenigma · Dec 16, 2002

NeoMoses said:
I've actually thought about this quite a bit. Yes, suffocation would suck. The C02 stored in PB gun tanks is in liquid form, not solid. My idea would consist of piping the liqid CO2 directly to the block, then expanding or boiling the liquid into a vapor. From experience, a 68 C.I. tank full of CO2 will shoot around 4000 shots from a paintball gun (different for all PB guns). When doing this, the entire gun will be iced over if shot continuously for about 15 minutes.

My idea was to regulate the amount of liquid allowed to evaporate in the Waterblock to much less than that allowed through a PB gun. It should last at least an hour or two if done properly, and because of the limited amount evaporated, it would not be nearly as noisy as a fire extinguisher. Although I quickly realized that this idea had little merit for everyday use, it would be handy for those wanting to make some impressive benchmarks to show off their brand new chips, just like LN2 cooling.

My hopes for posting ideas like this are to inspire new ideas in other people. Many of my ideas that work well were inspired by other people's ideas that were "unfeasible" or "impossible."

Exactly, that is definately possible, I forgot to address the CO2.It only sublimates if it is frozen.It has a freezing point really close to its boiling point too.

JoT · Dec 16, 2002

As I said, if LN2 is too cold, then some sort of alternate shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Please note, though, this was posted at 12AM (my time, at least), so I was sleeping as I typed

I saw a post somewhere else on these forums saying that liquid oxygen or something else could be used as the alternate to LN2.

I asked that science teacher, and discovered that we have no chemistry teachers in this school, so a biology/anatomy teacher was all I had to ask

He told me just what you said, Skulemat

It is now my life's goal to get to sub-zero quickly and efficiently

JoT · Dec 16, 2002

An addition, just so that the coolant couldn't get to the extreme temps of LN2, couldn't you just have a very small bit of the rad in LN2, and it'd still cool to a significant temperature? Soaking more or less of the rad in LN2 should raise and lower the temp, because you get more or less time for the coolant to go through the LN2 and decrease in temperature.

I've become redundant, shoot me

Edit: mods, go ahead and move this to Extreme if you like

Edit II: crap on a stick, I forgot to mention the boiling point of LN2, feh; you can't prevent the LN2 from boiling away, but you could use a substitute which has a much higher boiling point

aenigma · Dec 16, 2002

JoT said:
An addition, just so that the coolant couldn't get to the extreme temps of LN2, couldn't you just have a very small bit of the rad in LN2, and it'd still cool to a significant temperature? Soaking more or less of the rad in LN2 should raise and lower the temp, because you get more or less time for the coolant to go through the LN2 and decrease in temperature.

I've become redundant, shoot me

Edit: mods, go ahead and move this to Extreme if you like

Edit II: crap on a stick, I forgot to mention the boiling point of LN2, feh; you can't prevent the LN2 from boiling away, but you could use a substitute which has a much higher boiling point

Like....PROPANE?

JoT · Dec 16, 2002

aenigma said:
Like....PROPANE?

1: I know nothing about it

2: It's incredible flammable, so that's horrible for cooling a 150 degree CPU

Skulemate · Dec 16, 2002

JoT... you need to read the things that people are posting here for your benefit if you're to get anything from this thread. aenigma told you that propane boils at a temperature of -42°F, which means that it would do the same thing as your liquid nitrogen, but at a significantly higher temperature.

aenigma · Dec 17, 2002

Yes, thank you Skulemate

By the way, propane is not that flammible.Just duct it outside or something.I use it all the time, its not bad.

Skulemate · Dec 17, 2002

No problem. It really irks me when people have high hopes for a project but then aren't ready to put any effort into pulling it off... especially when they ask for (and ignore) advice.

JoT · Dec 17, 2002

aenigma said:
Yeah LN2 is too cold for waterchilling, this also belongs in extreme cooling.
If you want a good cheap solution to chilling using a total waste system, propane is the way to go.Boils at -42f and it is cheap.Much much better to make a waterchiller that is long term though.Not that hard either if your willing to do it.

If you just wan't a total loss propane system, heres what you do.Goto a store that sells adapters, get one that adapts a 3/8" flare fitting to the propane tank.Flare a long piece of copper pipe.Bend it to a spiral, run it through your insulated resivour, and let it exit somewhere(preferrably outside as propane smells horrible)then turn it upside down, connect it to the propane tank and open the valve to whatever setting you want.Voila, total waste water chiller that will get to maybe -42f, but it wont last too long...But the 20lb tanks are pretty cheap.

I read this post, and basically ignored it because a total waste system seems to be exactly that, a total waste, it's just less temporary than LN2, and phase-change sounds like a really big pain in the butt.

aenigma · Dec 17, 2002

JoT said:
I read this post, and basically ignored it because a total waste system seems to be exactly that, a total waste, it's just less temporary than LN2, and phase-change sounds like a really big pain in the butt.

What the hell do you think LN2 is?TOTAL WASTE SYSTEM, do some reading.Jeeze, propane is cheap and easy to get, and it doesnt get as cold as ln2 so you can ACTUALLY PUMP THE LIQUID.
Please do yourself a favor, and do some reading.

Thank you

JoT · Dec 17, 2002

aenigma said:
What the hell do you think LN2 is?TOTAL WASTE SYSTEM, do some reading.Jeeze, propane is cheap and easy to get, and it doesnt get as cold as ln2 so you can ACTUALLY PUMP THE LIQUID.
Please do yourself a favor, and do some reading.

Thank you

I knew near nothing about LN2 when I started this post, just that it's really cold

I'm not trying to insult you by saying what I said (yay, confusing wording), I was just saying that that seemed like a horrible alternative to me, but think though, I know nothing about it, so what you told me is all I know, so it just sounds like a bad idea to someone who knows nothing about it, you kinda understand my situation now?

If you'd point me to some links concerning propane, I'd happily read them.

Sorry for sounding like a total ***.

aenigma · Dec 17, 2002

JoT said:
I knew near nothing about LN2 when I started this post, just that it's really cold

I'm not trying to insult you by saying what I said (yay, confusing wording), I was just saying that that seemed like a horrible alternative to me, but think though, I know nothing about it, so what you told me is all I know, so it just sounds like a bad idea to someone who knows nothing about it, you kinda understand my situation now?

If you'd point me to some links concerning propane, I'd happily read them.

Sorry for sounding like a total ***.

Ah ok I see.
Well LN2 will actually boil(which is how it takes so much heat away and is so cold, because it boils much much MUCH lower than water) off more than propane, so it wont last as long as propane.Plus I wouldn't know where to get LN2, but you can get propane everywhere.And it would last quite awhile probably.

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