Why not integrate?

Why aren't there any video cards with integrated sound, i know i would buy one and there would probly be a huge market for it and agp 8x would easily have the bandwidth to do both.

probabily just no demand for it. and it would just make upgrades harder, and churing out new video chipsets that much slower. and with the current tooth and nail race between nvidia and ATI, i don't think either side would want to spend a second on anything that didn't secure their cards as "teh most k-rad video card evar."

pip said:

and agp 8x would easily have the bandwidth to do both.

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I was about to murder this thread until you said this...it's a very good point, however i dont know how long this is going to hold true...

here is my reason NOT to integerate

Lets assume theoratically speaking you have a integerated sound and video card and for xyz reasons sound card is dead and what do you do??? you return it right? but wait you perfectly working video card have to go to .. because its TWO IN ONE

i know it may sound like a wierd logic, but i always tend to stay clear of "integerated" accessories like cdrw+dvd combo's etc

pip said:

agp 8x would easily have the bandwidth to do both.

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Not really actually. (here i go again )

Today's video cards, and even yesterday's, would use 100% of the AGP bus if they had to use it. AGP 8x offers 2GB of bandwidth. The bandwidth between the GPU and onboard video ram on a 9700 Pro is 20GB. When the card needs to use system memory instead, it cuts down to that 2GB. If there was a sound card too, it would be even less...major, major drop in performance.

Re: Re: Why not integrate?

Evnas said:

Not really actually. (here i go again )

Today's video cards, and even yesterday's, would use 100% of the AGP bus if they had to use it. AGP 8x offers 2GB of bandwidth. The bandwidth between the GPU and onboard video ram on a 9700 Pro is 20GB. When the card needs to use system memory instead, it cuts down to that 2GB. If there was a sound card too, it would be even less...major, major drop in performance.

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Evnas there have been many tests done on this subject and modern vid cards don't stress the 4x bus let alone the 8x bus

With so many motherboards having on board sound and even video these days, there would be no market for a video/sound add-in card, regardless of wether it could be done or not.

Ever look at a really good soundcard? Lots and lots of capacitors on a fair sized pcb. If you want to add an "integrated" solution you might as well use mobo sound. You could put it on the AGP buss I suppose, integrated ones are on the PCI buss right?

Then again, maybe slappy pci (I forget the next gen of PCI and it's late so I'm not going to try) will have room for faster soundcards. It wouldn't have to be renamed either (AGP = Advanced Graphics Port) Sorry, past bedtime...

Re: Re: Why not integrate?

Evnas said:

Not really actually. (here i go again )

Today's video cards, and even yesterday's, would use 100% of the AGP bus if they had to use it. AGP 8x offers 2GB of bandwidth. The bandwidth between the GPU and onboard video ram on a 9700 Pro is 20GB. When the card needs to use system memory instead, it cuts down to that 2GB. If there was a sound card too, it would be even less...major, major drop in performance.

Click to expand...

Actually, sound cards use very little bandwidth. The Creative Extigy and m-Audio USB external sound cards are proof of this: running on the USB 1.1 spec, they consume at MAXIMUM 12 mbps, or 1.5 MBps. With AGP 8x running 2.1 GBps, we're talking at around one-half of a percent of the total bandwidth. I actually think that an integrated sound/video card would be very marketable to OEMs as a "high performance multimedia add-in card." Surely it would simplify installation procedure for those less acquainted with computers. Or perhaps a multimedia daughterboard with exchangable GPU, GFX memory, and sound chip? Because in it's current state, we have to pay $4xx for a new board, when almost everything but the GPU is remaining the same. That would be like buying the motherboard with the memory and processor soldered onto it permanently. I have an old ATi Rage from the mid-90s which has an SODIMM slot on it for the user to expand memory. This type of architecture would probably decrease prices as well. Imagine ATi being able to produce one type of PCB for all the different GPUs and memory configs. That would decrease costs, and it would allow users to buy the top of the line that they can afford. Let's say I want a 256mb 9800 Pro. But I can only afford the 128mb version. With interchangable memories, I could buy 128 (or even 64) mb of memory right now, and then save up the cash to exchange for 256mb. WIth the GFX industry running out of hot new technologies, this might be the way for nVidia or ATi to separate themselves and gain market share.

#1 reason this will never happen (or be successful like solitary stand-alone solutions):

People upgrade video cards MUCH more frequenctly than sound cards.

However, I bet merely mentioning this has got the good folks from Compaq all in a tizzy about their 'next big idea.'

Re: Re: Re: Why not integrate?

pip said:

Evnas there have been many tests done on this subject and modern vid cards don't stress the 4x bus let alone the 8x bus

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It has absolutly nothing to do with the video card itself stressing the AGP bus. With todays games and video cards, how often does the video card need to use the system memory? Not very often. Even then, its not for very much memory that it uses, so it will seem like there is little to no performance at no matter what AGP speed. However, fill the video memory up (Doom 3 at 1600x1200 and high details would be a good example), and use a "large" amount of system memory, and u will see different results

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why not integrate?

Evnas said:

It has absolutly nothing to do with the video card itself stressing the AGP bus. With todays games and video cards, how often does the video card need to use the system memory? Not very often. Even then, its not for very much memory that it uses, so it will seem like there is little to no performance at no matter what AGP speed. However, fill the video memory up (Doom 3 at 1600x1200 and high details would be a good example), and use a "large" amount of system memory, and u will see different results

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but still it uses so little bandwidth it doesn't even require pci not even with doom 3 at 1600x1200 would it stress it enough for it to hurt performance unless there's something about doom 3 that you know and i don't

lol 4 re:s

Power etc......AGP = Advanced Graphics port....not a PCI port....

It would be silly as the card will be very big....and produce more heat etc.....

However, I bet merely mentioning this has got the good folks from Compaq all in a tizzy about their 'next big idea.'

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lol, shhhh....lets not give them anymore ideas...

ya and if it's using 12mb max then that says to me it has no use for the AGP bandwidth. Integration is usually considered bad, so what we're really discussing is probably moving an integrated solution from the mobo to the video card and there's not much reason for that since it's almost impossible to find a mobo that doesn't include integrated sound and cheap soundcards are -in a word- cheap. The only use I can think of is for AIW type cards, shich could then include an rf modulator for output to older TVs.

Instead of a tech reason, let me give another more logic orientated reason:

More stuff to break.

Think about it, sure, a company could spend the time to put a soundcard on a video card, but that's just more stuff on the videocard to go wrong. If the sound-processing part of the card went bad, the company would have to replace the whole card. And with video cards running upwards of 400 bucks nowadays, I don't think ATI or nvidia would be too anxious to replace a 400 dollar video card just because one of the sound processing chips went bad.

Also, there isn't any space! The I/O ports of video card (2 DVI outs and a S-video out) take up all of the space of the back of the card. Take a look at your average sound card, and take a look at a video card. There just isn't any way to get all of that stuff on the back of one AGP slot! Sure, you could have a dongle for the sound stuff and have that take up a PCI slot, but dosn't that just defeat the purpose of a combo card?

Another logical reason. No company would put a sound card on a mid-to-high end video card. Why not? PC enthuasists have no love for onboard sound. That's why so many of us get seprate sound cards, even when our mobos have "okay" on-board sound.

Also, why even use ANY of the AGP bandwidth when you have all that PCI bandwidth just aching to be used?

All in all, putting a sound card on a video card could just create more problems (many) that it would solve (none).

From the looks of things right now, I think that onboard sound is really going to be where the soundcard gets integrated.
I've read numerous posts saying that the onboard sound of the 8RDA is very good. Integrating it into the video card doesn't seem like a good idea to me because of how quickly the technology of video cards is advancing. I think the techniological improvements of sound technology has leveled off for now.
So in the near future motherboards might come standard with sound features that are better than the speakers most people can afford to buy to listen with. Probably bad news for the manufacturers of soundcards. Though there may always be a market for really high end cards.