[Frodo Baggins]

I've never given this any thought except right now, but I think I may (or hopefully may not) have a problem dealing with depression right now.

I mean, I had a test today in mathematics, easiest test I've seen for maybe 2 years, and for reaons which I'll tell you later, I really needed to get perfect on this test.

However, like my other blunders, I eventually made a stupid mistake misreading a question and I probably lost 2 points on this test, getting a score of probably 97%.

So I ran home, ****ed beyond words, and after I've calmed down enough, I started thinking and here I am typing this out...

At the beginning of the school year, I decided that I wanted to finish with one of the highest averages in Ontario. This would be around 98--99% average in 6 of my courses. Impossible? I didn't think so (and still don't). One of my friends last year accomplished the same thing and I don't think I'm any different from him. I mean, I know every single math taught in high school (from Grade 9 to 13, even though there is no more grade 13). I actually learnt more than necessary, going on to University level mathematics. Not only that, but I am quite decent in english (I got a 96% last year witha bit of effort), so it's not impossible, right?

3 weeks or so into school, and I'm feeling alot of depression and stress already. I've handed in one test (the one written an hour ago) and 2 assignments in english and statistics.

It's just that, if I ever make any kind of mistake nowadays, I get angrier and angrier. It's no use telling this to any of my classmates. If you begin any sentence with "I'm so mad I got a 96% on my test..." they tend to shut you out. Hell, teachers don't even care that much. Nobody understands that my standards are alot higher than the average joe.

Why would I want to do this? I'm not exactly sure. I want to get one of th best averages in Ontario for the academic attention of course....but just because I feel that I can. I can see myself accomplishing it, and all that is required is a bit of effort over a year.

And it's not a constant thing. It has grown. At the beginning of the grade 11 year, I aimed for a 90% average. By the end, I was aiming for a 97% average and I beat myself up for getting a 96% on the final report.

Will this obessession stop? I wanted a 90% at the begnning of last year and now I want a 99% average. What's wrong with striving for perfection?

I think the biggest concern I have is that nobody gives a damn about my situation. For most other people, 96% averages are high enough. Hell, as the grades go up, the difficulty in getting the grades get harder and harder. The transition from 96 to 97 is huge while the transition from 97 to 98 is even larger.

Especially this year, I'm running out of time. I spend usually 3 times the amount of time anybody else spends on my work from school. I also spend hours studying math not taught in school (University calculus for example). To add to that, I work with a prof at the Unversity of Ottawa on research pertaining to genomics. I also train with a competitive track and field team from my city. This amounts to alot of sleepless nights, and usually 2-3 hours of sleep I can deal with....(I haven't had an 8 hour sleep for more than half a year)

And if anybody tells me it's not important whether I got a 96% average or a 98% average, well, damn, of course it is. There is a unimaginable difference in academic advanatges (Universities, scholarhsips, attention)

I got a hold of this list:

The Pursuit of Excellence vs. Perfectionism
The pursuit of excellence = doing the research necessary for a term paper, working hard on it, turning it in on time, and feeling good about it.
Perfectionism = doing three drafts, staying up two nights in a row, and handing your paper in late because you had to get it right - and still feeling bad about it.
The pursuit of excellence = studying for a test ahead of time, taking it with confidence, and feeling good about your score of 96.
Perfectionism = studying at the last minute (after three days of chronic procrastination), taking the test with sweaty palms, and feeling depressed about your 96 because a friend got a 98.
The pursuit of excellence = choosing to work on group projetcs because you enjoy learning from the varied experiences and approaches of different people.
Perfectionism = always working alone because no one can do as good a job as you and you're not about to let anyone else slide by on your "A".
The pursuit of excellence = accepting an award with pride even though the engraver misspelled your name. (You know that it can be fixed later at the jewelry store).
Perfectionism = accepting the reward resentfully because that dumb engraver didn't get your name right.
The pursuit of excellence = reading the story you wrote for the school paper and noticing that the editor made some changes to the copy that really improved it.
Perfectionism = throwing a near tantrum because the editor dared to tamper with your work.
The pursuit of excellence = going out with people who are interesting, likeable, and fun to be with.
Perfectionism = refusing to go out with people who aren't straight "A" students.
The pursuit of excellence = being willing to try new things, take risks, and learn from your experiences and your mistakes.
Perfectionism = avoiding new experiences because you're terrified of making mistakes.

And maybe I do have a problem. I mean, maybe this list is poking fun, but other than : "Perfectionism = throwing a near tantrum because the editor dared to tamper with your work." and " Perfectionism = accepting the reward resentfully because that dumb engraver didn't get your name right." , I can see each factor describing me (maybe even understating it a bit), especially this one: "doing three drafts, staying up two nights in a row, and handing your paper in late because you had to get it right - and still feeling bad about it."

What do you think? To be perfectly honest, I don't even know if I'll listen to any of the advice provided because I'm so closed-minded towards my goal, you know? The worst thing I can hear is: "It's not important. Your pushing yourseld for nothing", or even worse, the sympathetic: "You're fine, you're smart enough"

But on the other hand, I just feel like I can't take much more of this punishment. After a minor thing as losing 2 or 3 points on a 50+ point test, I'm feeling incredibly depressed, lost, and just plain empty.

[Frodo Baggins]

Perfectionism = doing three drafts, staying up two nights in a row, and handing your paper in late because you had to get it right - and still feeling bad about it.

For example, last week, I had to write an english essay. I started well back, giving me enough time to finish well before the date. I got my paper edited and commented on by two teachers from my school including my own teacher. It was also edited by 2 friends. I stayed up to 6 in the morning editing it monday, and was late to school, handing it to my teacher at the end of the period.

Perfectionism = studying at the last minute (after three days of chronic procrastination), taking the test with sweaty palms, and feeling depressed about your 96 because a friend got a 98.

The friend comment realy strikes home. I guess when I see anybody with a better mark (maye not even in the same semester), I beat myself up, because I know I can do better

Perfectionism = always working alone because no one can do as good a job as you and you're not about to let anyone else slide by on your "A".

Especially this comment. My friends know that if they choose to work with me, I work them like dogs. But it gets the job done. Instead of handing in 5 page reports, we hand in 15 pages reports with all the bells and whistles. On several occasions, I know I can do better working alone because I don't have to deal with anybody else's bad work (which I always end up editing and writing myself anyways)

Perfectionism = avoiding new experiences because you're terrified of making mistakes.

Maybe, though I don't think that's a problem with me. But I always like to be prepared before going into anything

I feel that the worst thing I can do is graduate with a paltry 96 or 97% average. Then I'll have to read about and look at whoever got the higher averages in Ontario, and then I'll feel like crap cuz I know I could have done it

[sandman001]

ermmm...wow.....I'd say you have a problem with that. Hell, I'm glad if I get everything done, let alone doing 3 drafts or something.

Or maybe I'm just really lazy...meh.

[Frodo Baggins]

or maybe it's all my imagination and I need some jello

[sandman001]

Originally posted by Frodo Baggins
or maybe it's all my imagination and I need some jello

did someone mention pudding?

[Penguin4x4]

hey d00d, I'm on IRC right now if you want to talk it over,

[RED Hot Machine]

Frodo,

I think the way you seek to set yourself high standards is awesome, and I commend you for doing that. I wish I could have had your drive at your age.

I say that it is good that you want to achieve your best grades possible. As long as you don't burn yourself out, and do take some time out for other things in life, I think you will be fine.

You have my IM contacts if you want to talk



Andy

[Jeff Bolton]

yeah man i wish i had the determination to try to get such good grades. as long as i pass with a C i'm not too upset, but thats just me. sure i'd like to do better but i just have so much stuff that i want to do, and studying is at the bottom of the list unfortunately (unless its a computer related class). of course we could say 'wow, 97 is really good, i wouldn't complain', but that wouldn't help any. you've done a good job describing your situation and i know that those three points are very important to you.

my only advice is to accept that you can't change what happened, and learn to live with it, and just take that anger from the mistake you made and do your best to turn it into positive energy and just study harder for your next test. if that 97 is the lowest grade you get all semester, your average will still be obscenely high and you'll be the most 1337 math ninja of them all

cheer up!

jeff

[Titan386]

Frodo:

I can understand your situation ( I've felt similarily myself many times). It is good to see that you are concerned about your school work, and that you are looking towards your future.

However, it is also important that one can find a balance in one's life. Grades do not necessarily accurately describe your knowledge in any particular area of study. I know that this can be difficult to admit, especially if one strives to get excellent grades. However, do not confuse striving to do well with getting a perfect score on every test: the later is simply not possible. It is only human to make the occasional error.

One "low" grade does not mean your average will be low. You have many chances to get it as high as you want.

That said, it is fine, and even admirable to strive for a high average, but I suggest doing so with moderation. Beating yourself up when you make mistakes is not the answer! Do your personal best, and do not waste your time hoping to get a higher grade than the next person. That person's grade is relevant to only one person: the person who recieved it. It means nothing to you.

Probably the thing I should stress the most is that one should not judge oneself by their grades. For example, just recently I got a 90% on a Computer Science test I had thought I would have gotten a perfect score on. Apparently, my teacher was not satisfied with the definition of a variable I gave. Yet, (and I'm hoping I don't sound too arrogant here), I think I can program circles around my teacher. For a moment, I was rather disgruntled about this getting this grade.

However, I quickly realized that just because my teacher chose to mark one of my answers wrong does not mean I am any lesser of a programmer, or any lesser of a person. Grades are only so accurate: sometimes you simply don't perform as well on a test as you do normally. The only thing you can do in that case is just accept it and move on. The test is over, you can't change the grade.

Anyway, I hope I didn't ramble on too long. Hit me up on AIM if you would like to talk

[fiji]

dont put so much pressure on yourself

a 97% is practically perfect

be happy that you got a 97%!



relax, and think about it -- is it that important that you get the highest grades in ontario?

will the rest of your life be affected if you make a 96% instead of a 98% ? probably not


its not the grade that counts , its what you learn

[Thelemac]

Just something to think about...

Perhaps you're pushing yourself too hard for that last bit. I'm not saying that you shouldn't strive for it, but perhaps dedicating your life to it makes it so important to you that you make mistakes simply because of that.

That might not have come out well, my point is that after a certain point you put too much pressure on yourself. Maybe you need to relax a little bit to let youself recover from the pressure that you put on yourself.

Just something for ya to think about.

[Frodo Baggins]

do you think something like this is important in the future? Will it matter in 5 years?

[CrashOveride]

I think that if you are stressed to the point that you worry constantly and are not ever able to relax because of standards that you set for your self you have a problem. Maybe not big, and it might even, in some ways, bea good problem but its deffiantly not good and maybe you should loosen up a little, or learn to not worry quite so much about stuff that is done or and can't be changed.

IMO being perfect would be finding the perfect balance point for everything in life. In my life I always seem to sway between differnt things. Working in school, not working in school. Playing FPS's and RPG's. Doing stuff with friends, doing stuff on my computer (including more time on the forums). Working, Playing. etc. I have never been able to get a good balance. Perfect for me would be having that balance, maybe having a better balance for you would help. But who knows, everyone is differnt.

I think that doing pretty well (A's for American's but I guess there its differnt so maybe 95%ish?) is diffinatly important, however, I think, there comes a point at wich all that extra work will begin to pay off less and less. It five years it may matter but I think once you get out of college it will hardly matter at all. But lots of things turn out like that. However just because it won't matte doesn't neccisarily mean you shouldn't do it, though that is kinda what happend to me (lol I don't follow my own advice). With me, in middle and elementry school I did REALLY well and then I get to highschool and find out it didn't really mean anything at all and I kinda stopped caring, its hard to care now... I just kinda do HW if I find it intresting now... not because I am worried about grades. This is kidna good and kinda bad I suppose but I deffinatly don't worry much. Maybe I should worry more though, since now I get C's mostly... :/ Ok, I drifted... sigh (The sigh is at me, no one else.)

[JigPu]

*geez... this is taking a while to come up with a descent post *

It is good to see that you have drive and are willing to do what it takes to become the best that you (or anyone) can be. However, you must ask yourself what cost you are willing to pay to achieve your goals.

You have steadily increased your bar over the years, rasing your expectations of yourself ever higher. You've coped fairly well with lower expectations, but you are now seeing that you are begining to reach a limit. Even with this limit though, you still are pushing on to break through and become better.

The problem though is that you are very quickly hitting a point of diminishing returns. When your expectations were lower, you're potential was higher, and required less work to achive what you did. Now though, it is taking disproportionatly more and more effort to increase the return.

The workload/payoff is rather like the equation Y=X/1. Assume that Y is a measure of perfection (less is better.... like golf!), and that X is the measure of work you do. As you can see, initially a small increase in the work you do to achive your goals pays off quite a bit. When you begin to near perfection though, it becomes increasingly more work to improve by the same ammount.

You are very close to perfection already. This means that in order to become better still, you must increase the work you do by quite a bit to make any significant difference. You must ask yourself though wether you are really willing to make the sacrifices nesscary to achieve this slightly higher perfection.

Sure it's a great thing to become #1, or finish 'up there', but sometimes you just have to realize that enough is enough. In the end, nobody cares wether you get a 99% average. Yes, it will be of great note in the present and short future, but when you're dead and gone, nobody will remember you for that. They may remeber you for something great you did, or perhaps even forget about you. But either way, they will not remember you simply for that average.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't strive for that 99%. Only that the returns IMHO are NOT worth the work and sacrifices nesscary to achive it. Your views may (and probably do) vary, but remember that you are hitting diminishing returns.

There's so much more I'd like to say, but for brevity's sake, and slight lack of relavance, I'll skip over it
JigPu

[Frodo Baggins]

The workload/payoff is rather like the equation Y=X/1. Assume that Y is a measure of perfection (less is better.... like golf!), and that X is the measure of work you do. As you can see, initially a small increase in the work you do to achive your goals pays off quite a bit. When you begin to near perfection though, it becomes increasingly more work to improve by the same ammount.

I could care less personally about my grades (sounds weird) but I think that grades don't measure at all how smart you are. Unfortunately, it's what University's and people look at as soon as you finish high school. It's just that moment, hell, it'll last something like half a year to a year when people are franticaly searching you're school records.

I feel perfect grades aren't a measure of how smart you are, but how meticulous and careful you are. By my nature, I can work like a dog on a project and hand it in, receiving a perfetc marks. However, when crunch time comes and I have to write a test, I can never achieve a mark. By my nature, I just make tiny errors that amount to tiny points. (Misreading, miswriting, etc.)

But I can't change that at all, grades are how you are measured and so be it.

I think that even in the present, even if I decided that enough is enough, and I'm going to lower my standards a bit and let nature take it's toll, I'm not even sure if I can do such a thing.

It's like if you're a soccer fanatic and someone hands you a soccer ball. You just have to play with it. My current mentality revolves around perfection. If I have to write an essay, I push and prod it until I have no longer any time to push and prod.

I just lack the ability to say no when it comes to my work. For example, I just can't say to myself, "Oh well, that's the best I can do". I've never told myself those words for more than a year. Either I edit my work to be the best possible, or I persuade my teachers to let me hand it in the next day.

You have steadily increased your bar over the years, rasing your expectations of yourself ever higher. You've coped fairly well with lower expectations, but you are now seeing that you are begining to reach a limit. Even with this limit though, you still are pushing on to break through and become better.

Don't know why I'd mention it, but did did you know I had an 86% average in grade 9? Midterm grade 10, I actually had a 80.1% average, but it went up to 87% at end of the year.

I just decided that it might be a good idea to turn off the tv and stop going out and get a 90% average in grade 11.

But when I started school, I started realizing the importance of work. I started falling in love of math, and my standards of a 90 average went up to 95, then to 97 at the end of the year.

In the end, nobody cares wether you get a 99% average. Yes, it will be of great note in the present and short future, but when you're dead and gone, nobody will remember you for that. They may remeber you for something great you did, or perhaps even forget about you. But either way, they will not remember you simply for that average.

I think you hit dead on with this....I'm gonna think about it tonight

[macklin01]

Hello.

I don't have a lot of time for a long, perfect post, but I'll try to add some input here.

When I was in high school, I also pushed myself in the same way you did. I wanted to be Valedictorian at my school, and because our grades were based on a weighted, cummulative average system (e.g, 98.x% cummulative average) rather than on a gradepoint system (e.g., 4.0 for all A's), I had to not only get A's at 93% or above, but shoot for very high A's. I also experienced the pressure of needing to get a 98-99% average in each class whenever possible, just to stay ahead of the Salutorian with a comfortable safety margin. I remember having been proud when my dad would say, "Don't work too hard," and I'd reply, "There's no such thing."

On the other hand, I didn't beat myself up when things didn't work out that way. I tried my best and was happy with that.

At the end of the day, being Valedictorian of a small school didn't impress Yale and Princeton. I ended up attending the University of Nebraska at Lincoln along with many of my classmates. Was it worth it? Yes and no ...

YES:
1) It got me a Regent's Scholarship, which paid full tuition.
2) It got me an Eastman scholarship, which roughly paid my room and board.
3) It got me into the Honors program, which paid for my books.
4) It prepared me well for classes.

NO:
1) Being in the top 2 was sufficient for the Regent's. And not being in the top two would have probably been fine, too, because my standardized test scores were high enough.
2) Probably didn't need such high averages for that, either.
3) Ditto.
4) I probably didn't need a 98.x% cummulative average to be prepared.
5) A high-stress lifestyle led to the eventuality that my dad needed open-heart surgery in his mid-40's. I can only assume that genetically, I'm heading the same direction, and perfectionism in high school probably didn't help.

Now I'm coming up towards ten years out of high school. I'm still in school, and my cummulative average back then is so far off the radar screen, it's beyond invisible. It got me where I wanted to be, but it was probably unnecessary, at the end of the day.

I suppose my advice, having traversed the same path, would be to shoot for the high-90's as you are, score as well as you can on the items you can completely control (e.g., take-home exams, papers, and homework), do the available extra credit, study hard for tests, and then accept the best that comes.

Don't forget to enjoy what you're learning. I've found that a combination of working hard and enjoying what you learn is usually enough to get you the high grades.

Remember: the point of school is learning, not attaining a super-high cummulative average. Grades are a measurement of what you learn (or more precisely, of your ability to reproduce material presented by your teachers), not the end-all goal.

Just a few cents. Best of luck! -- Paul