Shame on Valve

sappo · 10-05-03, 04:35 PM

At one point in time the staff at Valve should have asked themselves, "If given the opportunity, would someone steal or source code? If so, should we keep it safe?"

Let's not get kid ourselves into being surprised that someone was willing to steal the most anticipated game in years. Instead, might i suggest people focus a little more energy on Valve's failure to protect their property. Of course we dont know ecactly what happened (and probably never will). However, after reading Gabe's forum post, I think It's safe to say Valve didn't protect thier property as well as they should. To make matters worse for Valve, having your source code stolen, isn't exactly the industry norm --espeically in such a close-nit software company. Take the proper precautions and you don't have a problem *cough idsoftware cough* In my mind they were neglegent, so Gabe's sob stories wont work on me.

I will say this tho, I think Valve is a Kick A company, they made one small (yet extremely crucial) mistake. It's unforunate to have it all come crashing down because of it. But such is life.

Gnerma · 10-05-03, 04:49 PM

http://www.overclockers.com/articles843/

sappo · 10-05-03, 09:43 PM

Thats exactly my point. I'm tired of seeing people groveling in the face of Gabe as King Arther did before God in 'Holy Grail' Enough already. For those living under a rock, enjoy:

>Scene 7
>
>GOD: Arthur! Arthur, King of the Britons! Oh, don't grovel! If there's one
>thing I can't stand, it's people groveling.
>ARTHUR: Sorry -
>GOD: And don't apologize. Every time I try to talk to someone it's,
>"sorry this" and "forgive me that" and "I'm not worthy". What are you
>doing now!?
>ARTHUR: I'm averting my eyes, oh Lord.
>GOD: Well, don't. It's like those miserable Psalms - they're so depressing.
>Now knock it off!
>ARTHUR: Yes, Lord.
>GOD: Right! Arthur, King of the Britons - your Knights of the Round Table
>shall have a task to make them an example in these dark times.
>ARTHUR: Good idea, oh Lord!
>GOD: 'Course it's a good idea! Behold! [Holy Music] Arthur, this is
>the Holy Grail. Look well, Arthur, for it is your sacred task to seek this
>Grail. That is your purpose, Arthur - the Quest for the Holy Grail.
>ARTHUR: A blessing!
>LAUNCELOT: A blessing from the Lord!
>GALAHAD: God be praised!

Oni · 10-05-03, 09:49 PM

The source isn't going to do many people good anyways. At most, it'll be an inside as to how the netcode works so cheaters can write cheats, and modders can write mods better.

You can't just compile it and have the game. It's missing essential things like models and textures and maps. Lots of people don't seem to realize this.

ConquereR · 10-05-03, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oni
The source isn't going to do many people good anyways. At most, it'll be an inside as to how the netcode works so cheaters can write cheats, and modders can write mods better.

You can't just compile it and have the game. It's missing essential things like models and textures and maps. Lots of people don't seem to realize this.

Hes really not discussing that though, thats what all the other threads are about(what can the code be used for). Hes just saying that they should have protected it better.

ThePerfectCore · 10-05-03, 10:07 PM

What's to stop people from making models/textures/maps, then selling the game as their own over in Carjackistan or wherever?

(I love that word, "Carjackistan". I found it earlier today.)

ConquereR · 10-05-03, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ThePerfectCore
What's to stop people from making models/textures/maps, then selling the game as their own over in Carjackistan or wherever?

(I love that word, "Carjackistan". I found it earlier today.)

Valve said it would be extremely hard to get a game published using their code.

Lazlo Panaflex · 10-05-03, 10:17 PM

Shame on Valve? Shame on the crazy ass hackers that go through extrodanarly lengths to get info that they shouldnt have... No matter how secure something is someone is going to find a way through especially when its relative to the most anticipated game of the year.

ConquereR · 10-05-03, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazlo Panaflex
Shame on Valve? Shame on the crazy ass hackers that go through extrodanarly lengths to get info that they shouldnt have... No matter how secure something is someone is going to find a way through especially when its relative to the most anticipated game of the year.

Talk about...

sappo · 10-05-03, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazlo Panaflex
Shame on Valve? Shame on the crazy ass hackers that go through extrodanarly lengths to get info that they shouldnt have... No matter how secure something is someone is going to find a way through especially when its relative to the most anticipated game of the year.

Nope. Source code leaks are an exception to the rule. Microsoft Windows and Office are worth an infinite amount more than the source code to halflife2. They've managed to protect it for the most part. What's more is the MS undoubtedly has had many more people with access to it's source code, which is a huge security compromise. I mean really. From what sounds, Gabe's emailing computer contained HL2 source code. I doubt you'd find it on Gate's "social computer".

About halflife2 code not being useful to the masses:
If my memory serves me right, Valve is a company that was born by altering the Quake engine and creating Halflife. Of course there are not a lot of people that could use the code, but the idea that Valve could "father" a company as Idsoftware "fathered" Valve is definitely food for thought.

To me, it seems that the only loser here is Valve. In very general terms, open source is pretty much a good thing for everyone but the writer of the sourse code.

ThePerfectCore · 10-06-03, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Shame on Valve? Shame on the crazy ass hackers that go through extrodanarly lengths to get info that they shouldnt have... No matter how secure something is someone is going to find a way through especially when its relative to the most anticipated game of the year.

*Unplugs LAN cable*

Now try getting into my machine.

filip04 · 10-06-03, 12:07 AM

*sigh* yet another halflife2 thread...

Titan386 · 10-06-03, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sappo
To me, it seems that the only loser here is Valve. In very general terms, open source is pretty much a good thing for everyone but the writer of the sourse code.

This has nothing to do with Open Source Software. This is theft, plain and simple.

I suggest you read the Open Source definition. After reading that document, I think the difference between the two ideas will be clear. Code that is "open source" has been released that way by the developer, not stolen and distributed around the Internet. Referring to this theft as an "open sourcing" of the code is a misuse of the term.

Those who would have you believe that the theft of the Half Life code is in any way related to the open source movement are misguided and are mongering misinformation.

sappo · 10-06-03, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ThePerfectCore

*Unplugs LAN cable*

Now try getting into my machine.

LIAR!... or else how did you post.

sappo · 10-06-03, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Titan386

This has nothing to do with Open Source Software. This is theft, plain and simple.

I suggest you read the Open Source definition. After reading that document, I think the difference between the two ideas will be clear. Code that is "open source" has been released that way by the developer, not stolen and distributed around the Internet. Referring to this theft as an "open sourcing" of the code is a misuse of the term.

Those who would have you believe that the theft of the Half Life code is in any way related to the open source movement are misguided and are mongering misinformation.

I agree, but let's not play the semantics game. Open source, leaked source, whatever. Either way, Valve has inadvertantly released intelectual property onto the internet. Intelectual property is good for everyone. Leaked intelectual property only hurts the party it is leaked from.

OC Noob · 10-06-03, 01:18 AM

You analogy might be a little better had Valve not re-worked the QII engine to the point that it was more then 90% Valve code. If a company was “fathered” using 5% of the source code who really cares, but that was just a bad analogy. I get what you are saying and can only hope another HL caliber game stems from this, but I doubt if someone needs stolen the stolen source code to make their game that they are competent enough to make a decent game anyway. Not to mention with Valves influence, making a game primarily from that code and getting it published would be difficult at best.

The MP hacks will suck, the lack of security sucks, but what sucks most of all is if I were Gabe I'd quit answering all the emails personally and let some $5 an hour customer (no)-service people take care of it for me. Hopefully that won't happen.

Banyan · 10-06-03, 08:24 AM

something like that (especially that source engine) should be nowhere near the net... not anywhere near it. nothing. who knows wtf happened but there was a door and someone opened it. i wouldn't be surprised if it was an inside job.

Michfan · 10-06-03, 09:40 AM

If i remember correctly the reason that Microsoft has done such a good job with their source code is the fact that only a handful of people have access to the full source code for Office and Windows. The majority of their coders only work on pieces at a time rather than the full code itself.

Granted the source code for HL2 will yield just cheats, better mods, etc. the main problem is that Valve is going to get sued by a few other companies for inept security and not protecting their licensed portions of the code. It also reveals the inner workings of Steam. I don't feel sorry for Valve but it doesn't excuse the actions of someone illegally stealing it. In the end the gamers lose out by Valve now having to concentrate their efforts on finding out who did it rather than completing the game.

McWarren · 10-06-03, 05:00 PM

The same thing happened with Quake 3 beta code, however it was much more low-key. A few months after the retail version came out, some guys got hold of this old, stolen code and re-packaged it as their own 3d-engine. Needless to say, they were shut down almost immediately by iD. I'm pretty sure that anybody attempting to re-write Valve's source code will meet the same fate.

This really isn't a big deal- except for people like me, who have sacrificed animals to get hold of some kind of SDK for the past couple of months, which is of course with best intentions in mind.

Falcon-K · 10-07-03, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by filip04
*sigh* yet another halflife2 thread...

heh what else are we supposed to talk about in the games forum

10-05-03, 04:35 PM	Thread Starter #1
sappo Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: guam	Shame on Valve At one point in time the staff at Valve should have asked themselves, "If given the opportunity, would someone steal or source code? If so, should we keep it safe?" Let's not get kid ourselves into being surprised that someone was willing to steal the most anticipated game in years. Instead, might i suggest people focus a little more energy on Valve's failure to protect their property. Of course we dont know ecactly what happened (and probably never will). However, after reading Gabe's forum post, I think It's safe to say Valve didn't protect thier property as well as they should. To make matters worse for Valve, having your source code stolen, isn't exactly the industry norm --espeically in such a close-nit software company. Take the proper precautions and you don't have a problem cough idsoftware cough In my mind they were neglegent, so Gabe's sob stories wont work on me. I will say this tho, I think Valve is a Kick A company, they made one small (yet extremely crucial) mistake. It's unforunate to have it all come crashing down because of it. But such is life.
	QUOTE Thanks

10-05-03, 04:49 PM	#2
Gnerma Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Simi Valley, CA - USA	http://www.overclockers.com/articles843/
	QUOTE Thanks

10-05-03, 09:43 PM	Thread Starter #3
sappo Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: guam	Thats exactly my point. I'm tired of seeing people groveling in the face of Gabe as King Arther did before God in 'Holy Grail' Enough already. For those living under a rock, enjoy: >Scene 7 > >GOD: Arthur! Arthur, King of the Britons! Oh, don't grovel! If there's one >thing I can't stand, it's people groveling. >ARTHUR: Sorry - >GOD: And don't apologize. Every time I try to talk to someone it's, >"sorry this" and "forgive me that" and "I'm not worthy". What are you >doing now!? >ARTHUR: I'm averting my eyes, oh Lord. >GOD: Well, don't. It's like those miserable Psalms - they're so depressing. >Now knock it off! >ARTHUR: Yes, Lord. >GOD: Right! Arthur, King of the Britons - your Knights of the Round Table >shall have a task to make them an example in these dark times. >ARTHUR: Good idea, oh Lord! >GOD: 'Course it's a good idea! Behold! [Holy Music] Arthur, this is >the Holy Grail. Look well, Arthur, for it is your sacred task to seek this >Grail. That is your purpose, Arthur - the Quest for the Holy Grail. >ARTHUR: A blessing! >LAUNCELOT: A blessing from the Lord! >GALAHAD: God be praised!
	QUOTE Thanks

10-05-03, 09:49 PM	#4
Oni Oni-ni-Kanabō Ninja Hippo eater Moderator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Canada	The source isn't going to do many people good anyways. At most, it'll be an inside as to how the netcode works so cheaters can write cheats, and modders can write mods better. You can't just compile it and have the game. It's missing essential things like models and textures and maps. Lots of people don't seem to realize this. __________________ Mama, put my guns in the ground. I can't shoot them anymore. On Indefinite Hiatus Asus P6T SE Intel i7 930 @ Stock 12GB Corsair DDR3 9-9-9-24 XFX Radeon 5830 @ Stock Corsair 750 Watt PSU
	QUOTE Thanks

10-05-03, 10:07 PM	#6
ThePerfectCore Red Raccoon Dojo Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Texas	What's to stop people from making models/textures/maps, then selling the game as their own over in Carjackistan or wherever? (I love that word, "Carjackistan". I found it earlier today.)
	QUOTE Thanks

Shame on Valve

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10-05-03, 10:17 PM	#8
Lazlo Panaflex Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mean Streets Of Orange County CA	Shame on Valve? Shame on the crazy ass hackers that go through extrodanarly lengths to get info that they shouldnt have... No matter how secure something is someone is going to find a way through especially when its relative to the most anticipated game of the year.
	QUOTE Thanks

10-06-03, 12:07 AM	#12
filip04 Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver Canada	sigh yet another halflife2 thread... __________________ E5200 @ 3850mhz i7 2600k @ 4600mhz
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10-06-03, 01:18 AM	#16
OC Noob Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ USA	You analogy might be a little better had Valve not re-worked the QII engine to the point that it was more then 90% Valve code. If a company was “fathered” using 5% of the source code who really cares, but that was just a bad analogy. I get what you are saying and can only hope another HL caliber game stems from this, but I doubt if someone needs stolen the stolen source code to make their game that they are competent enough to make a decent game anyway. Not to mention with Valves influence, making a game primarily from that code and getting it published would be difficult at best. The MP hacks will suck, the lack of security sucks, but what sucks most of all is if I were Gabe I'd quit answering all the emails personally and let some $5 an hour customer (no)-service people take care of it for me. Hopefully that won't happen. __________________ Hail to the King: Opteron 165 w/ DFI Ultra-D w/ BBA 1900XT 512 mb GSkill PC4200 1 GB x 2 74 gb WD Raptor x 2 Raid 0 MSI (ATI550) Tuner w/ Windows XP Media Center Edition & OCZ Powerstream 520 DD TDX H2O block w/ Maze4 GPA block DD D4 pump single 120mm Fan Heater core w/ shroud In Lian-Li fish tank window case RIP (Rest In Pieces): P4 3.0 ghz @ 3.75 ghz Aerocool HT-101 IC7-G Radeon 9800 Pro 430 W Antec True Power
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10-06-03, 08:24 AM	#17
Banyan Member Join Date: Sep 2002	something like that (especially that source engine) should be nowhere near the net... not anywhere near it. nothing. who knows wtf happened but there was a door and someone opened it. i wouldn't be surprised if it was an inside job. __________________ circleofsharks.bandcamp.com
	QUOTE Thanks

10-06-03, 09:40 AM	#18
Michfan Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Alabama	If i remember correctly the reason that Microsoft has done such a good job with their source code is the fact that only a handful of people have access to the full source code for Office and Windows. The majority of their coders only work on pieces at a time rather than the full code itself. Granted the source code for HL2 will yield just cheats, better mods, etc. the main problem is that Valve is going to get sued by a few other companies for inept security and not protecting their licensed portions of the code. It also reveals the inner workings of Steam. I don't feel sorry for Valve but it doesn't excuse the actions of someone illegally stealing it. In the end the gamers lose out by Valve now having to concentrate their efforts on finding out who did it rather than completing the game. __________________ AMD Athlon 64 Opteron CAB2E Week 0548 2805 mhz (255x11) Geforce 6800 GS @ 528/1175 1GB Mushkin Level I Black PC 3500 DFI LanParty NF4 Ultra-D Thermalright XP 120 w/ Panaflo HighFlo 120mm Fan WD 320gb 16mb Cache Lite-On 16x Dual Layer DVDR/RW w/ Lightscribe
	QUOTE Thanks

10-06-03, 05:00 PM	#19
McWarren Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London, UK	The same thing happened with Quake 3 beta code, however it was much more low-key. A few months after the retail version came out, some guys got hold of this old, stolen code and re-packaged it as their own 3d-engine. Needless to say, they were shut down almost immediately by iD. I'm pretty sure that anybody attempting to re-write Valve's source code will meet the same fate. This really isn't a big deal- except for people like me, who have sacrificed animals to get hold of some kind of SDK for the past couple of months, which is of course with best intentions in mind.
	QUOTE Thanks

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