Noobie Memory Question

I am building a computer and I am stuck on which memory to buy. I want to get one 512mb, and later get another 512mb to total a gig. I would like to stick close to $100 for each.

I prefer to get one from Newegg.

Here is what the rest of the system will consist of:

Abit NF7
AMD Mobile XP 2500+
ATI 9800PRO 128MB 256Bit
120 GB WD 8mb 7200
Air Cooling
Memory ?

I have never OC'ed a system, so this is all new, but I want to learn and try it out with this system and do a little bit, nothing too extreme, just play around a little. I need to know which specific memory would be best for this given my price range. I assume I would want to stick with PC-3200, because I want to obtain the highest possible fsb, but which one?

Thanks for the help

There are several threads over in the AMD CPU, or in the AMD Motherboard Section which are based on overclocking the NF7 and the mobile XP, specifically. I am quite sure that these threads would provide you with ram options/suggestions, as well.

There are several options for you at or near your price range, however, before going any further, I would like to add a word of caution. Whatever stick you buy today should be a current product for which you will be able to get a match later. And at the lower price range, concentrate on the chip used to make the ram, not so much as the ram's brand name.

An alternative to buying one stick now would be to buy 512MB in a 2 x 256 configuration, then later, if you decide you really need the extra 512, pick up a single stick. At that time, on the Abit, you would then place the single stick in DIMM #3 and the other two in DIMMs 1 & 2 for dual-channel operation. This approach allows you to run dual-channel right from the git-go and would also allow you to determine if you really need the extra 512MB of ram. Depending on which way you decide to go (single 512 first or 2 x 256), here are some options in your price range.

On a regular basis, Kingston ValueRam (KVR) can be had at retail vendors either on sale or mostly, with MIR, bringing the net cost somewhere around $80-$100 per a 2 x 256 dual pack. If you take your time and are lucky, you can find this valueram with either the Hynix BT-D43 or the Micron -5B C chips. Both of these work well with the NF7. There is a thread started by Sen in which he details his overclocking experiences with a 35W mobile 2400 using both of these rams at different times. The "catch" with these is (a) they are getting harder to find, depending on where you live and (b) it will be harder to find a single 512 stick later. Some KVR PC2700 has the Hynix chips in the 512MB sticks, as well as some of the PC4000. The Micron chips can be found mostly in the Crucial PC3200 and Buffalo PC3200, but I think that newegg is currently out of stock on both of these. The Buffalo will probably not be restocked as this ram is in short supply. The last time I checked, ZipZoomFly (ZZF) still had the Crucial. The Micron is also used in the OCZ EB series, but that ram is outside of your stated budget. In addition, you would probably do just fine with any of the "value ram" from the major suppliers, but this might be priced just outside the $100 per 512 price.

If you opt to go with the 512 right away, then I would look at the PC3200 Micron based Crucial at ZZF as it is about $90 per stick. This ram runs at relatively low timings, although not at bh-5's 2-2-2-5 standard. It however, is also near the end of its production cycle. For a little more (about $115 per stick), there is still some Kingston HyperX PC3000 which should have Winbond chips. These could be anywhere from bh-5/6 or ch-5 and future availability is in serious questions as not many places have any of this ram left and it is no longer manufactured. The same holds true for the KHX PC2700. Again, most of the major brands have good ram that would meet your goals, these are just some suggestions.

I really would sencourage you to try your best to purchase however much ram you need now, as these products are always coming and (worse) going so availability of a match in the future of today's purchase should not be counted upon.

Below are a couple of links to sites that are NF7 specific and might provide some interesting reading for you.
http://www.logan.eclipse.co.uk/abit...ionfree.com/underclock/index.php?showtopic=53

http://s6.invisionfree.com/underclock/index.php?showtopic=53

This is the second link. I guess I was so long-winded that I exceeded my text/space limit. Sorry about that.

since we are on the topic, am i right in saying that all Corsiar XMS are BH5, if not what ones are?
thanks

Only a few models and revisions are, check this thread.

Great, Thanks for the details. This does help.

so would I good going with this
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-141-413&depa=1

Or should I go for the HyperX? http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-144-113&depa=1 I know it's a little more, but I would be willing to if there is a great enough difference.

Also, if I purchase the two 256 sticks, then get a stick of 512 later, then doesn't the NF7 limit the 400fsb to only two of the slots, not all three? How does that work. I was under the impression that I needed to stick with only using the two slots.

I would not recommend buying the KVR unless you walk into a retail store and do a visual on the chips. Kingston uses MANY different chips to manufacture their valueram and you have no way of knowing what will ship from newegg, nor any way of requesting specific chips. If you wait for a weekend sale and visit Best Buy or Circuit City, you might get lucky and find some of those chips referenced above. If you hit the jackpot, you would visit a store that hasn't sold any in about a year and find bh-5 or bh-6 (forget about it, long gone). My point is that they use good chips and they use not as good chips (for o/c purposes, otherwise, chips are fine). There is no way of telling unless you do a visual.

The Kingston HyperX is the newer "A" in number code which, if I am not mistaken, is CH-5. Lots of people have had good success with these so I think that they should remain on your list of possible choices. I encourage others to chime in here about their experiences with the KHX non A, as I don't have any personal experience. The only problem here is whether or not you will be able to follow up later with a 512MB stick if you decide you want one. That will actually be a problem with all your choices due to the constant change in chips used by manufacturers.

Last item - first, the NF7 doesn't limit the 400fsb to anything, I believe that your question is really whether or not you would be operating is dual-channel mode with more than two sticks. If that is your question, read on, if not, skip the chapter.

The amount of ram in the NF7's DIMM # 3 determines how much ram will be used to run in dual-channel mode. The way the nForce2 chipset works, the single dimm (#3 on the NF7) times 2 equals the max ram that will be accessable by both memory controllers at the same time, therefore, with 2 x 256, a total of 512 is accessable in dual-channel mode. If you put a 512 stick in DIMM #3, then 512 x 2 = 1024 is accessable. However, if you populate all three slots with 256 sticks, then only 512 (256 x2) is accessable by both memory controllers at the same time and the other 256 operates in single-channel mode. Therefore, if you are going to operate with 3 sticks, you always put the largest stick in the single slot, then populate the other two with the other sticks, this way you maximize the amount of ram accessable by both memory channels at the same time (does the repetition drive home the point that it is the ability of the controllers to access the ram simultaneously that is what you are trying to achieve). I hope that answers your question.

Plan a visit this weekend to BB or CC and see what you can find. You never know what is in those little blue boxes from Kingston.

Thanks once more fot the info. This helps.

I'm going to run by Best Buy tomorrow to see what is available. Is there a way I can tell what chips are on them at the store?

Again,
Thanks!

Just look in the package (if it is Kingston Value RAM) although ALL my KVR at my local Best Buy are now remarked Kingston chips!!!

durst said:

... Is there a way I can tell what chips are on them at the store?

Again,
Thanks!

Click to expand...

For Kingston HyperX?
Its on the sticker that you can see in the small cut-out in the box. It should state something like "KHX3200AK2 or K2", then refer to the thread linked above by Tatuya titled "List of chips on recommended modules" to find out which chip you have (BH-5, BH-6 or CH-5). When I bought mine, I brought along a printed out copy of the various chip list so I can easily refer which chip is available at my local store.

excellent help guys.

I'm off tomorrow to bb and CC. Just out of curiousity, do you think they might have some good ram over at Fry's? I might head over there too.

I also have a question about Bus SPeeds for RAm.

I plan to buy exactly what he is buying but plan on a watercooling setup, which bus speeds would u reccomend for me?

And i'm planning on buying the KHX Ram in the link he provided, would that be sufficient for my purposes?

Ok, I ended up going to BestBuy today and got the Kingston Value Ram KVR400AK2/512R kit These are with the Hynix BT-D43 chips. I paid $150.

Forgive my questions, as I'm still learning. What is the comparison to the same priced: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-144-113&depa=1

It looks like the latency is better with the HyperX, but how do you know which chip you will get? Isn't that the main goal getting the good chips?

The Kingston's memory timings are faster and that is because it should be using Winbond CH-5 chips. See the attached link for a listing of (mostly) Winbond chips used in various ram. While the KHX has faster timings, it will usually not clock as high as the Hynix. In order for the Winbond chips to clock higher, you usually have to increase the voltage to the ram beyond the stock levels of your NF7. Flapperhead and some of the other guys with modded boards have shared that the newer Hynix will actually not scale very well with increased voltage, therefore you should be able to hit in the 240 range with an unmodded board, provided it will run at those speeds. You will, however, be doing those speeds at relaxed timings. Only by benchmarking would you actually be able to tell which approach resulted in better performance on YOUR system.

http://pub.lorenz.bei.t-online.de/winbondlist.htm

Now, please don't be offended, but I am going to provide you, and anybody else that is interested, with a quick lesson in how to buy Kingston ValueRam for cheap, or at least cheaper than the $150 asking price at Best Buy. If you have no interest in saving about $50-$70 when buying KVR, then please feel free to skip this section.

The most important part, Durst, you have already done and that is locating the KVR with the specific chips you are looking for. It does not matter what store you find it in, nor does it matter what you pay for it. Most stores have a thirty-day return policy for ram, some only have 14 days, so you need to know which time frame applies to your situation. Once you have made your purchase, SAVE your receipt as you will need it for returns. Spend next Sunday going through the sale ads in your newspaper, looking for the same KVR on sale anywhere. It is seldom that within a two-week period the 2x256 dual pack of KVR does not go on sale at either BB, CC, or Office Depot. KVR comes with all sorts of chips inside the box, but with the same UPC on the outside of the box. When you find it with an MIR, it will usually bring the price down to the 70-90 range, depending on the specific sale (by the way and as a side note, this Kingson dual pack normally sells at Circuit City for 129.99 vs 149.99 at Best Buy). What you do is to buy it again, without concern for the chips, take the ram bought on the second purchase and return it to the original store where you bought the first ram dual-pack with the chips you wanted (remember that receipt I told you to save). You then take the UPC code off the box from the first purchase and use it for your mail-in-rebate request from the vendor where you made your second purchase. This 'technique' allows you to hand pick the chips you want and to get them at the lowest possible prices.

Some have raised the question as to whether there is something illegal in doing this. I do not believe so because you have simply made two purchases of the same (UPC) product and have decided to return one. Since, for purposes of store inventory, they are the same product, it will not matter which box you return to the vendor where you made your first purchase. They are in the same place they were before you made your (first) purchase, which is, with a dual pack of KVR to sell. At the same time, Kingston/second vendor are in the same place because they made a sale and have a rebate claim to honor.

And you? Well, you got the chips you wanted.

It is July 4th this weekend guys, I bet there will be some KVR on sale somewhere

Reefa_Madness said:

While the KHX has faster timings, it will usually not clock as high as the Hynix. In order for the Winbond chips to clock higher, you usually have to increase the voltage to the ram beyond the stock levels of your NF7. Flapperhead and some of the other guys with modded boards have shared that the newer Hynix will actually not scale very well with increased voltage, therefore you should be able to hit in the 240 range with an unmodded board, provided it will run at those speeds. You will, however, be doing those speeds at relaxed timings. Only by benchmarking would you actually be able to tell which approach resulted in better performance on YOUR system.

Click to expand...

the light bulb goes off in my head... Ok, I get it now. I'm going a little slower than normal, but this link finally made sense to me now. Thanks! So, from other posts, and what you say, I would probably be happy with the ram I have now? Your statement above just confuses me a little. The Windbond chips need higher voltage for a higher clock. The Hynix will not scale very well with increased voltage. Is this a good thing, or a bad thing for the Hynix chips. What do you mean by scale. It sounds like not a good thing, but isn't 240 unmodded pretty good?

Reefa_Madness said:

Now, please don't be offended, but I am going to provide you, and anybody else that is interested, with a quick lesson in how to buy Kingston ValueRam for cheap, or at least cheaper than the $150 asking price at Best Buy. If you have no interest in saving about $50-$70 when buying KVR, then please feel free to skip this section.

Click to expand...

First of all, you won't offend me. I'm the student here, and you've already taught me and many others so much. As the matter of fact, this is exactly what I was planning on doing. I just wanted to get some ram quick, and I came across these chips after looking at 3 BB, 1 CC, 1 Frys. From what I remember, this is the best chip for the ValueRam, and I could only find it at this one BB. I do have 30 days and I'm watching the sales for the week for sure. I still have not made up my mind, however. I am still looking and reading. The other ram that appeals to me is the OCZ. ?? Whew, I had no idea how important the ram selection is. It really is the most expensive part I am spending on my system. I just bought a Maxtor 160GB 8Mb 7200 for $69 today, and I'm turning around and spending this much on the ram. But I guess you guys already know all about that, cause some of you spend 3x that for your ram.

What I meant by my statement about the voltage is this. Ram will run at xxx speed at programmed timings and voltage. As you attempt to run it faster, you start changing the variables, which are the timings and the voltage (and at higher voltage, then cooling, as well). The timings you relax and the voltage you increase in order to maintain system stability. Ram will respond to these changes, but not all will respond in the same way, with some, it is a linear thing. If your ram's response is linear, as you increase voltage, you are able to run it stable at faster speeds, in other words, there is a corresponding increase in Mhz for every increase in voltage, although not exactly a straight one-to-one thing, but increases any way. To clarify a point, the inceased voltage does not MAKE the ram run faster, it just allows it to run faster at stable speeds, all ram, at some point, will max out at xxx speed. This process of increasing voltage goes on until you get to the ram's max speed or the boards max voltage capabilities. If you mod your board to provide more voltage to the ram, then a ram with this type of response to voltage, would again continue to stabilize at higher speeds, hence the phrase that it "scales" well...increases in voltage are met with increases in stable speeds. Winbond chips are considered to scale well and would be prime candidates for using in a board with higher vdimm limits, or modded, or for the soon to be released DDR Booster from OCZ. The newer Hynix, on the other hand, does not have such a linear response and will reach its max stable speeds at lower voltage, then its stability will not be impacted at all by increasing the voltage. This type of ram is preferable if your board has lower vdimm limits or you are not planning any kind of mods in this area. I hope that clarifies what I meant by "scales".

As I stated earlier, I think you did the right thing by snagging the kvr with the Hynix chips as it and the kvr with the Micron chips are the two best options available in valueram at this time. The consensus is that the Micron is able to run at faster timings, but either one of these is a good choice. And you have simply kept your options open by grabbing the Hynix while you could. Good move.

And yes, ram is important and yes, it is expensive. One motherboard, one cpu and throw in a couple of fans = 1 gig of 'big boys' ram.

Another ram to look at might be the KHX PC2700 which, according to that list of ram and chips, should have Winbond BH-6 chips. I have been trying to find some reviews on it, I seem to remember having seen one, but can't locate it. The OCZ stuff is good, especially either the PC3500/PC3700 EB series with the Micron chips. It is, as I'm sure you noticed, pricier than valueram. You will have to decide for yourself what is your personal price/performance point, P/P/P/P, as I call it.

Good luck and hope you enjoy your weekend.

ok my only problem is that i'm buying RAM online from USA (it's cheaper when converted into Aussie dollars) and my cousin will bring it down to australia when he comes next month.

What is the best way to buy RAM online as i obviously cant see the chips on it.

Michael_antoi said:

ok my only problem is that i'm buying RAM online from USA (it's cheaper when converted into Aussie dollars) and my cousin will bring it down to australia when he comes next month.

What is the best way to buy RAM online as i obviously cant see the chips on it.

Click to expand...

Since you can not go and do a visual, I would suggest buying ram with known chips. You referred to the KHX, that would probably be a decent choice. I can't recall if that was the PC3200 or another one. The PC2700 KHX (newegg) is supposed to be bh-6, and the PC3000 (available at ZipZoomFly) can be bh-5, bh-6 or ch-5. All good stuff so those would be good choices at the lower end of the price range. The new stuff that is coming out from Corsair, OCZ and Mushkin with the Samsung chips has received good reviews. It clocks well and runs tight timings. And, of course, you can just about do no wrong going with OCZ's EB series (PC3200-PC3700), although they are a little pricier and harder to find sometimes. These have the Micron -5B C chips.

Hope that helps.

Newegg has the OCZ EB for just $22 more than what I paid for the KVR at BB. So this might be worth going for since it is just a little more ??


Also, on my search for the Hynix chips, I did see see some Micron chips on some of them. I didn't realize that they were a better choice though.

Which speed rating for the EB?

The OCZ EB is highly regarded ram and has the Micron chips, with a little dose of OCZ 'tweakin', which is a good thing. They're just a little bit removed from your $100/512MB budget, as stated at the beginning of your thread. It is easy to blow your budget when it comes to ram these days, as the hi-end stuff is very seductive.

The KVR with the Micron chips (same as the EB) will run tighter timings than the Hynix, so it probably would be a better choice, overall, for an NF7/mobile 2500 set up. Just be sure that it is the chip with the 'MT -5B C' coding for the second line. Flapperhead started a thread on this ram a while back and there have been some recent postings in it about performance results with what may possibly be the new revision. Read this, start to finish, to get a feel for the Micron based KVR.

The Hynix is still a good choice.

As always, keep in mind that while a certain brand of ram, or a certain chip may perform generally at certain levels, there are always exception to the rules, good and bad, so you can never be assured that your results will mirror those of the next guy. All you can do is improve your chances of achieving certain levels of performance by buying products known to have achieved those results under similar situations as yours.

Man, doesn't some of that sound like a disclaimer you might find on a box of overclocker's memory?