Fading Receipts scam....

Hi peeps,

This is usually an issue with "brick and mortar" stores rather than online retailers or mail order vendors, you usually get a nice letter sized laser printed receipt from many the latter two. Register receipts, printed on cash registers however, have been arousing my ire and suspicion lately. Usually affected are the black printed ones, however the dot matrix printed and old skool purpleish ones are unaffected. What has been happening to me is that these receipts I have saved have faded completely blank or enough to be illegible over a period of time.

Now, if some of these were receipts from like 8 years ago, I wouldn't give a hoot, but it seems to have been happening on receipts as young as 6 months old. Bear in mind that retailer warranties are often a year, and you can see the problem here. Even if they faded after a year or 18 months though, this is still unacceptable since you still need them for longer manufacturer warranties.

What brought this to my attention, was that I've got some of those flourescent energy saver bulbs. They have a five year warranty, I bought them about 18 months ago. One died, so I go looking for the receipt and find 3 or 4 blank pieces of paper where I put my receipts. One of them might be the receipt for the bulbs, I don't know, I can't tell. Even angling them to the light shows no sign of printing on the damn things.

Now what makes me mad is the thought that this might be a deliberate ploy. Seems that this problem has been known about for a couple of years and has caused problems for others...
http://www.redleafinstitute.org/Index.cfm?Section=BN&Page=BN14#article2

The suggestion in that article to photocopy your receipts is a very good one. I am going to be doing that myself now where high ticket items are involved.I would suggest stapling the original to the copy as well, since they might be suspicious of the copy. Maybe rip the corner off the original before copying or mark it uniquely in some way so that the feature on the copy can be used to identify the original even though the print faded out.

Also, I think I am going to ask for permanent receipts at stores, I'm just going to stand there and demand a receipt that will not fade. If we all start doing this hopefully the message will get through.

Stores in the Fading Receipt Hall of Shame currently include;
Canadian Tire
Walmart

Others will be added as posted, demand permanent receipts from these stores!

regards,

Road Warrior

Road Warrior, this happens, but it is not a scam, and not done to screw you (or any other customers) in any way.

This is simply a trait of thermal printing machines. They are substantially cheaper to run, and faster than many other methods that could be used, because they do not actually use ink, they use heat to make the image on the receipt.

If you take one of these old receipts and apply heat to it, it will turn black, and stay that way for quite some time. Photocopying your receipts is a good idea, but at least in our store (although I don't know about others), we take names and numbers of all customers who purchase anything over a certain dollar amount, so that if they have any issues with warranty and either lose, or have a faded receipt, we easily find and reprint their receipt for them at a later date.

I hate to burst the conspiricy bubble, but these are the fastest, cheapest ways to print cash register receipts, and that is the reason they are used. If you ran a business that printed hundreds of these things a day, and you had the choice between paying a penny per receipt, or 4-5 cents per receipt, you'd see how quickly this stuff ads up.

Yeah but if you're gonna have to pay 10c at a 7/11 or copy shop to photocopy your receipts all the damn time, then 4c on the price of an item isn't going to hurt. I would think it's in fractions of a penny though, I can print whole letter sized pages for 4-5c.

Just because it's cheaper, doesn't make it the right way to do it. It was probably cheaper to put gas tanks outside the frame in vehicles, before enough people got burned alive for changes to be made.

One could say it's the same conspiracy that plagues all forms of commerce, the conspiracy of cheapness whatever the consequences.

When an item ceases to perform it's function, it can no longer be regarded as equivalent to an item that does. Therefore in failing to perform the function of maintaining a record of a transaction for a reasonable period of time, I say thermally printed receipts that will fade, are unacceptable as receipts. Call them something else if you will, but they are not performing the function of a receipt, no matter how cheap and convenient they are.

If you'd like to argue the fact that an item that doesn't perform it's function is as valid and acceptable as an item that does, I've got some parts here I can sell you at very reasonable prices.....
Road Warrior

I take offence to this:

Fading Receipts scam....

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Your complaint may be valid, but calling it a scam is not.

Fading Receipt Hall of Shame

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There is nothing shameful in using receipts printed on thermal papers, especially since 99% of retail stores can easily call up records, and re-print a receipt for a large ticket item, since most companies record customer information on large purchases.

demand permanent receipts from these stores

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This is something most CSR's can't provide to you, since the only option they have for printing a receipt is through the standard thermal printer. If I have a customer come in and demand this of me, I'll get pissed, because I can't help it, and it's a very small point to nit-pick on.

This is a slippery slope argument. You're comparing a saftey issue to a warranty issue. The two things are not the same.

Just because it's cheaper, doesn't make it the right way to do it. It was probably cheaper to put gas tanks outside the frame in vehicles, before enough people got burned alive for changes to be made.

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Nobody is going to lose their life over what kind of receipt you get.

One could say it's the same conspiracy that plagues all forms of commerce, the conspiracy of cheapness whatever the consequences.

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If one were to say that, they would be wrong. There is a difference between a conspricy and an attitude. Keep in mind that this attitude also applies to customers, and I don't know how many people have complained about a difference in price of 4-5 cents verus our competition.

Once again, I take offence to this:

If you'd like to argue the fact that an item that doesn't perform it's function is as valid and acceptable as an item that does

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That's not what I've argued at all, you have twisted my words. What I have argued is that this is not a conspiricy, this is not a scam, and there is no reason for you to "demand permanant receipts" from retailers, or for you to add them to your "Hall of Shame".

I think you're picking on a very small, almost insignifigant shortfalling of some retail stores. You're making an issue out of nothing.

And anything else I want to say would be considered flaming I'm sure.

RoadWarrior said:

Yeah but if you're gonna have to pay 10c at a 7/11 or copy shop to photocopy your receipts all the damn time, then 4c on the price of an item isn't going to hurt. I would think it's in fractions of a penny though, I can print whole letter sized pages for 4-5c.

Just because it's cheaper, doesn't make it the right way to do it. It was probably cheaper to put gas tanks outside the frame in vehicles, before enough people got burned alive for changes to be made.

One could say it's the same conspiracy that plagues all forms of commerce, the conspiracy of cheapness whatever the consequences.

When an item ceases to perform it's function, it can no longer be regarded as equivalent to an item that does. Therefore in failing to perform the function of maintaining a record of a transaction for a reasonable period of time, I say thermally printed receipts that will fade, are unacceptable as receipts. Call them something else if you will, but they are not performing the function of a receipt, no matter how cheap and convenient they are.

If you'd like to argue the fact that an item that doesn't perform it's function is as valid and acceptable as an item that does, I've got some parts here I can sell you at very reasonable prices.....
Road Warrior

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While on the surface it seems like going cheap for cheapness sake that is really not the case. I work in a point of sale industry, and the other benefits of thermal printers all add up. Here are just some of the benefits to the store by using a thermal printer instead of dot matrix....

1. The receipt being printed prints faster, typically at least 2 seconds faster. This means less labor time being paid out for dealing with the same customer. A few seconds doesn't sound like much, until you add up each cashiering employee for the entire day, then combine the totals from all cashiers. This can equal a substantial amount of money saved in labor costs over all.

2. Thermal printers typically have fewer moving parts. This means that they will likely break less often and have a longer lifespan. The average POS printer that we sell goes for about $700.

3. Related to number 2, the printer does not take a ribbon. Ribbons cost extra money (from us it is roughly $40 for a package of 12) and when being used they put off debris. The debris can build up in a printer over time and help to wear it out, causing more and higher repair costs.

4. It takes less time for an average employee to change paper in a thermal printer since most of them use a "drop in loading" system where you just open a door and drop the roll of paper into it then close the door. Voila! You are done. With a dot matrix printer, you typically have to thread the paper through a track. This means even more wasted labor hours being paid out, and also more chances of things such as paper jams which leads to higher maintenance costs (we charge $125 an hour for on site repairs). Also, if a system unit is down while needing repairs, this leads to backups in the checkout lines which leads to possibly irate customers that may leave the store.


All of these things add up. If you just look at it on the surface, yeah, it looks like they are just trying to save an extra couple cents per transaction, but when you consider all of the other aspects, plus that this is a few cents per transaction with millions upon millions of transactions per day (at least in larger chain stores) then all of this stuff adds up.

Okay, you've demonstrated that this is not a problem in your store because YOU HAVE TAKEN MEASURES TO PREVENT THE CUSTOMER ENDING UP RIPPED OFF.

Obviously ALL stores do not take these measures because otherwise I would not be complaining. I dispute your figure that 99% of retail stores can call up records on what I bought on an unknown date at an unknown time when I was an unknown person to them. My guess is at best 10% can do that because they take addresses. Seriously, I didn't get my name taken at Best Buy for example when I bought a DVD player, I'm going to go back and say, "Hi, I bought a DVD player from you sometime in January" And they're going to tap on the keyboard for 30 secs and say "Oh yes, it was on 8th of January at 3:32pm on register 4, you paid in cash with bill numbers XJX972..." Sure they are.... Even if you remember the date you're probably going to be met with a completely blank look.

I can't actually remember anyone other than Radio Shack taking my name and address at point of sale.

The fact that some companies are aware of the problems with fading receipts and take steps that correct these problems, seems to indicate to me that this is a known issue within the retail industry. If it is a known problem and nothing is done to correct it, it becomes a case of knowingly supplying a defective item or service, and that my friend is a scam.

I found a gas station that recognises the problem, at least if you need a permanent receipt for tax purposes or for expense claims etc, they will write you one out. What a concept, providing what the customer wants, instead of trying to shout him down saying he's wrong.

Aside from that you arguments have taken the tone of "It happens to everyone " and "Everybody does it" the same arguments that are often used to defend inconvenient to change social injustices.

I also think your thin air figure of 4-5c a copy for an alternative to thermal reciepts is inflated and misleading, you wave it at me again, when I've already pointed out I can print letter sized sheets for that money, and I'm not buying my supplies in packs of ten or more. There appears to be misleading info from thermal printer manufacturers on total cost of thermal printers also because they emphasise the savings in ink costs. Well yeah, not buying any ink is all very nice, but what when the paper costs 50% more...
http://www.posdirect.com/proddetail.php?prod=ThermalPaper3
http://www.posdirect.com/proddetail.php?prod=1-PlyPaper
I know there are perceived advantages to thermal printers. However the person they are sold to, the retailer doesn't give a hoot about their one big disadvantage, because unless enough people complain about it, it's going to save him money big time on returns. It may have at first been an unintentional fringe benefit, but you can bet after a year of seeing a result it is now something that is a prized and treasured fringe benefit.

Economics of thermal printers aside, if it takes a minute to take a customers address, and the employee is paid only $7 an hour. That's 11 2/3 cents to do that. Damn, you could get a photo-lithographed frameable receipt printed on 10x8 glossy paper with an embossed holographic seal of authenticity to hang on your wall for that.

And then we have the example of e-tailers, the kings of low margin, high turnover discount prices these days, most likely cheaper that retail stores, maybe they do it by skimping on receipt costs. Ummmm no. Like I noted before you most often get a full sheet laser printed receipt from these guys.

The technology will never evolve to give us the perfect, durable and cheap receipt unless we demand it. There's probably a way to print attractive receipts for half the cost of thermal, but we'll never know while retailers are too giddy with delight at the extra edge thermal ones give them in avoiding returns. Of course, charged with that, they'll just respond "But everybody does it" That's the problem folks, everybody is doing it and it's the little guy getting screwed.

Road Warrior

RoadWarrior said:

I dispute your figure that 99% of retail stores can call up records on what I bought on an unknown date at an unknown time when I was an unknown person to them.

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As someone with retail management experience, I also dispute that figure; it's ridiculously high, especially considering the vast amount of cash transactions that take place. Even credit card transactions are difficult to recall at the retail store because the only information retailers usually keep is the amount of the transaction and the fact that it happened. Once the inventory is cleared and the accounting period is closed, retailers are not going to have any way to backtrack to find out what it is they bought - even if that information could be extracted from existing inventory and sales lists in the first place.

I remember once I had this exact faded receipt problem with a Rite Aid after a credit card purchase and a rebate mailing that the processing company claims they never got. The receipt still had the Rite Aid logo on it but all the type was illegible, and it'd only been a couple months since the purchase. Of course Rite Aid no longer had any record of the acutal items in the transaction, so couldn't help me out - but I did file a complaint with their district corporate office just because of the ludicrousness of using receipts that fade so quickly.

I know that Fry's, for one, also recognizes the problems with fading receipts; any manager in the cashier area will happily get a laser printout documenting your purchase if you request. I've also heard that in some of their stores, for more-expensive items, the salespeople are told to print out this stuff on every purchase. This is especially handy for rebates.

I wouldn't necessarily term it a scam and generalize all retailers, but it demonstrates a tremendous and flamboyant lack of caring for customers (which I experienced firsthand during my management days for sure). Normally retailers want to make sure all bases are covered with regard to customers and their potential situations, but clearly in the corporate world some customers can be sacrificed if it means increasing the bottom line.

The receipt being printed prints faster, typically at least 2 seconds faster.

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Haha, at LEAST 2 seconds faster. Thermal printers whip those things out. We just upgraded at our Office max store where I work part time. Printing larger receipts, especially when orders have 1+ rebate receipts. Amen for thermal...get the customers out of my face faster. People in line get irritated so quickly nowadays if they have to wait 30sec. for the person in front of them. Sorry, maybe some people still like using checks...

I dispute your figure that 99% of retail stores can call up records on what I bought on an unknown date at an unknown time when I was an unknown person to them

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You've twisted my words again, if you note what I posted, I said Large Ticket Items. And I don't consider a package of light bulbs to be a large ticket item.

What a concept, providing what the customer wants, instead of trying to shout him down saying he's wrong.

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I have never said you should not get what you want. I have said your conspiricy theories are wrong. Plain and simple, and they are.

However the person they are sold to, the retailer doesn't give a hoot about their one big disadvantage, because unless enough people complain about it, it's going to save him money big time on returns. It may have at first been an unintentional fringe benefit, but you can bet after a year of seeing a result it is now something that is a prized and treasured fringe benefit.

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This statement really offends me. Retailers do not benifit from customers being unhappy. In fact, most of them do everything they can to keep their customers happy.

We make about $100 on a $1500 computer sale, and our customer still complains our prices are too high. This doesn't even include employee wages, shipping costs or other costs that go into a sale.

We give very clear instructions, and even go so far as to circle the proper upc code for the customers, and they still complain that it's our fault when they don't send the UPC code and have their rebate rejected.

retailers are too giddy with delight at the extra edge thermal ones give them in avoiding returns.

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You have offended me greatly. Yes, thermal papers are not perfect. I have never said anything that would state that they are great.

I work hard, day in and day out, doing everything I can to make customers happy. So does everyone else I work with. That is what we do in the retail world, is try to make people happy, so that they will come back and shop from us again.

When you come around, twisting everything I say, spouting conspiricy theories, and saying that us retailers "are too giddy with delight at the extra edge thermal ones give them in avoiding returns", I take offence.

Everyone hates the retailer, and I have worked in a few different retail outlets, and the one thing that is stressed more than anything else is, to do everything you can to make the customer happy.

And yet still, you give conspiricy theories, and twist my words, and attempt to belittle my point with statements like "retailers are too giddy with delight", and "the retailer doesn't give a hoot about their one big disadvantage", I take offence.