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Nvidia chaeting with #'s on the 7800GTX

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Old 06-30-05, 01:06 PM Thread Starter   #1
WA2
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Nvidia cheating with #'s on the 7800GTX


THought I would share some information Viper John haad about my card.
Dude blows my mind! :P

"I am forcing the card to run at the advertised core clock
speed not the cheat speeds nVidia is running the cores at in 3D mode (about 40Mhz higher that
what bios is programmed for or what you set the core clock at manually ). nVidia is also defaulting
the driver to run at a "Quality" IQ setting instead of "High Quality" as a high end card should be
running at (and what ATI does BTW).

This BFG OC'ed card is advertised as a 450/650 . The bios is programmed for a 460 core clock
in 3D and the that is what both nVidia's an RivaTuner default to on the manual clock sliders (as they
should BUT when the card goes into 3D mode the core actually runs at 501Mhz or 41Mhz higher
than it is supposed to be or what you think the core will be running at.

The 3D core clock is actually set by the drivers. They read the bios to see what the 3D core clock"
is programmed for or what you are manually setting the core clock (which over rides the bios
programmed clock) and then sets that clock when the card goes into 3D mode.

Through either an error in the driver code, or a deliberate act by nVidia, the drivers are taking the
bios programmed 3D clock, or what you over ride it to manually, and adding 40Mhz to that number
and then setting the core clock genrator to the higher speed without you knowing it. I don't it is a
driver code error as NV did this before to make their cards appear faster to reviewers than they
really were at the advertised clock speeds. This behind the scene (read behind your back and
without your knowledge) 3D clock cheating appears to be confined to just the 7800's so that is
another reason to think this is deliberate by nVidia and not an accidental driver code error.

The problem with playing this stupid numbers game is if they correct the drivers to run the core at
what the bios or the manual core clock are actually set for the cards speed will drop and users
will be going "WTF", these new drivers are ****, they killed my card, they killed my computer,
they burnt down my house, they knocked the moon out of orbit, etc, etc, etc.

It will be interesting to see if FutureMark holds there approval of NV drivers that run the core higher
than it is supposed to be running. They have pulled their approval in the past for that very reason."


Hmmmmmmm

Last edited by WA2; 07-01-05 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 06-30-05, 02:25 PM   #2
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why would they pull it for running the core oc/ed...when u can oc it, like everyone does. I guess im not understanding

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Old 06-30-05, 02:26 PM Thread Starter   #3
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No idea bro. Guess they want the card to seem faster then it is.
Just thought I would pass it along.
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Old 06-30-05, 02:57 PM   #4
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Yep - pretty much all the benchies on the top scoring 7800s have shown the same "symptom" clocks always show up around 50mhz higher than what they were manually set
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Old 06-30-05, 05:01 PM   #5
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Is it not slightly lower in 2d mode as not to stress the card too much and generate less heat?
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Old 06-30-05, 06:10 PM Thread Starter   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
Yep - pretty much all the benchies on the top scoring 7800s have shown the same "symptom" clocks always show up around 50mhz higher than what they were manually set
mikeguava:

Curious about your 850 clocks. I have never seen any that high, and the highest 3D05 card is not even clocked that high...maybe a mistake in the clocks??
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Old 06-30-05, 08:31 PM   #7
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i dont think its a mistake cause viperjohn modded it! hes........insane....to say the least :P

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Old 07-01-05, 12:54 AM Thread Starter   #8
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Yes, I know. But I talk to john all of the time. He told me that he did not clock that card that high. He has not even modded one to that speed yet.
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Old 07-01-05, 01:20 AM   #9
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i'm very suprised no one else has reported this, all it takes is rivatuner to see which most of us run to verify there's no throttling and the temps are ok

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Old 07-01-05, 02:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WA2
Yes, I know. But I talk to john all of the time. He told me that he did not clock that card that high. He has not even modded one to that speed yet.


Ooops yes you're right I copied the wrong clocks off another card - but they'll be much higher than that eventually...once Sandman's dual evap cascade arrives...
lol we are right on the subject here- mikeguava cheating with clocks too! Corrected now...but hopefully soon changed to the upper limit

BTW the highest core clocks for X850Xt series card were a tad over 900mhz and over 700 on the mem - top score of around 9600 points in 3DMark05-which is still not enough to beat a fully modded and chilled 7800 - which are over 11k at this point

Last edited by mikeguava; 07-01-05 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 07-01-05, 03:31 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimedog
i'm very suprised no one else has reported this, all it takes is rivatuner to see which most of us run to verify there's no throttling and the temps are ok

Inother forums there have been various reports about the clocks being recorded higher than they were set. Confused already a bunch of peeps.
There is already a modded bios out that doesn't differ between 2D and 3D performance...

But there are 2 ways to look at it - it's beneficial for the "normal" user that when the card is not under full use of power in 2d to be throttled back - and when in need of 3D power the clocks are pumped up...can look at it as cheating in benchmarks if in fact future drivers will not have the throttle included - or - as power management for normal 24/7rigs

Last edited by mikeguava; 07-01-05 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 07-01-05, 08:25 AM Thread Starter   #12
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Oh, I was jsut told that abou tthe 3d05 score. Did not check myself

Quote from Viper :

"753/672 for first place for x850XT's in 3DM05
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=970038
but that card isn't even back to it's owner yet."


There are single 7800's @ 11k???

Last edited by WA2; 07-01-05 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 07-01-05, 10:56 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WA2
Oh, I was jsut told that abou tthe 3d05 score. Did not check myself

Quote from Viper :

"753/672 for first place for x850XT's in 3DM05
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=970038
but that card isn't even back to it's owner yet."


There are single 7800's @ 11k???

yes - #1 Shamino watercooled @ 11300pts, #2 Oppainter watercooled @ 10930pts

X850 #1 :Macci ln2 9600pts
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Old 07-01-05, 11:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
Inother forums there have been various reports about the clocks being recorded higher than they were set. Confused already a bunch of peeps.
There is already a modded bios out that doesn't differ between 2D and 3D performance...

But there are 2 ways to look at it - it's beneficial for the "normal" user that when the card is not under full use of power in 2d to be throttled back - and when in need of 3D power the clocks are pumped up...can look at it as cheating in benchmarks if in fact future drivers will not have the throttle included - or - as power management for normal 24/7rigs
The 7800 core running 40Mzh higher in 3D mode than set in bios or using manual OC control is not a bios issue. It is a driver issue. The drivers are what acutally programs the core clock generator when entering 3D mode after reading the the 3D clock set in bios or the manually set 3D clock which takes precedence over the bios 3D clock.

The drivers are just setting the core clock generator 40Mhz higher when entering 3D mode than it should. That could simple be a accidental coding error in the drivers (yeah right lol).

The only issue is the core will be running 40Mhz faster than users think it is unless they use RivaTuner's graph to check it or look at 3dMark results. If NV fixes that whoop's in a later driver release that will open another can of worms.

The card would of course bench lower with core clock set correctly in the "fixed" drivers and you would see the typical "WTF", "These new drivers suck", These new driver hurt my card", These new drivers hurt my system, "These new drivers knocked the moon out of orbit", etc, etc ,etc lol.

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Old 07-01-05, 11:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperJohn
The 7800 core running 40Mzh higher in 3D mode than set in bios or using manual OC control is not a bios issue. It is a driver issue. The drivers are what acutally programs the core clock generator when entering 3D mode after reading the the 3D clock set in bios or the manually set 3D clock which takes precedence over the bios 3D clock.

The drivers are just setting the core clock generator 40Mhz higher when entering 3D mode than it should. That could simple be a accidental coding error in the drivers (yeah right lol).

The only issue is the core will be running 40Mhz faster than users think it is unless they use RivaTuner's graph to check it or look at 3dMark results. If NV fixes that whoop's in a later driver release that will open another can of worms.

The card would of course bench lower with core clock set correctly in the "fixed" drivers and you would see the typical "WTF", "These new drivers suck", These new driver hurt my card", These new drivers hurt my system, "These new drivers knocked the moon out of orbit", etc, etc ,etc lol.

Viper
VictorShen posted a bios that supposedly takes care of 2D/3D throtteling and takes out thermal monitoring to prevent a coldbug.
Prob. the bios allows and disallows the driver to change the clocks.
Attached Files
File Type: zip 7800-noPB-noTM.zip (86.0 KB, 114 views)
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Old 07-01-05, 11:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeguava
VictorShen posted a bios that supposedly takes care of 2D/3D throtteling and takes out thermal monitoring to prevent a coldbug.
Prob. the bios allows and disallows the driver to change the clocks.
The 2D and Low Power 3D (commonly refered to as the throttle clock) clocks are easily changed on the 7800's with a bios edit using with NiBiTor V.22a. No rocket science there lol.

I just want to see the core VID programming enable for 7800's in NiBiTor ASAP lol.

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Old 07-01-05, 12:11 PM   #17
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Very interesting indeed. Downright dubious if you ask me! 40MHz will have a profound impact on the benchmarks if it is throttled back...the hairline victories in the reviews we have all read will no longer exist. Also, is nvidia so confident with it's yields that they expect every single 7800GTX to handle a 40MHz overclock?
Why they simply wouldn't advertise the chips at the higher speed is an odd move. Unless they are trying to portray a "more efficient" product (look what we can do with on XXX # of MHz) they are foolish if this is in fact a deliberate move and not some unforseen anomaly.

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Old 07-01-05, 12:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by consumer9000
Very interesting indeed. Downright dubious if you ask me! 40MHz will have a profound impact on the benchmarks if it is throttled back...the hairline victories in the reviews we have all read will no longer exist. Also, is nvidia so confident with it's yields that they expect every single 7800GTX to handle a 40MHz overclock?
Why they simply wouldn't advertise the chips at the higher speed is an odd move. Unless they are trying to portray a "more efficient" product (look what we can do with on XXX # of MHz) they are foolish if this is in fact a deliberate move and not some unforseen anomaly.
I agree completely. If this was a deliberate move to manipulate reviewers benches and the appearance of efficiency, it would be misguided, and in fact, regressive.

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Old 07-01-05, 12:38 PM   #19
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i was initially impressed with how low the idle power consumption was, but this kinda explains it. It might just be a bug in the driver, but for some reason I doubt it is.

edit: thanks for the info viperjohn

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Old 07-01-05, 12:42 PM   #20
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god darn u NVIDIA, why not just say we run @ X speed - now your little behind our back trick has been found out and now there will be another FX fiasco! I think NVIDIA marketing department should be fired.

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