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Old 09-24-05, 01:28 PM Thread Starter   #1
thegreek
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take a look at this pump


Link: http://www.jackssmallengines.com/oil-pump.cfm

It's very interesting becuase you use an external motor meaning if someone took this and modified to use some motor that'll mean zero heat added into the loop becuase it's all external, right? You could also make it as powerful as you want depending on what kind of motor you place on it.

What do you guys think, good idea or waste of time?

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Old 09-24-05, 02:02 PM   #2
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its designed for oil. so im betting water will corrode it/ unproperly lubricate it. much the same reason we dont use 12v fuel pumps from cars.
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Old 09-25-05, 04:14 PM   #3
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Well that depends on what its made out of. If its aluminum or steel then you're probably not going to want to use it. if its brass, copper, or plastic (my bet) then it won't pose a problem in an all copper loop. If you care to spend the $16.50 to try it out I'm guessing you'd probably get some good performance from it. I wonder how well it would work with a Hammer drill at the highest torque setting .

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Old 09-25-05, 08:33 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by thegreek
that'll mean zero heat added into the loop becuase it's all external, right?
Nope. The act of moving the water itself generates heat.
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Old 09-25-05, 11:15 PM   #5
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Shaft seal+unintened liquid=problems.

Also that may be a type of PD pump with low MTBF times, someone more knowledgeable would have to chime in.

BTW whats up with search function on the forums?
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Old 09-26-05, 12:05 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Graystar
Nope. The act of moving the water itself generates heat.
Surely that is an insignificant amount though.
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Old 09-26-05, 01:28 AM   #7
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Surely that is an insignificant amount though.
No, itís not insignificant. It is the entirety of the Brake Horsepower rating of the pump.

For example, an Iwaki MD-20 requires 50 watts to operate. But according to the specs, you only get 20 watts of output power. 20 watts is the shaft power, or Brake Horsepower (BHP, having been converted to watts, of course.) Those 20 watts will end up as heat in the water. This will be true for any pump. As you can see, the transfer is significant.

If you lift an object off a table you build up energy. If you drop the object the entirety of that energy is released through sound (when the object hits the table) and heat. Conservation of energy...itís not just a good idea, itís the law.

When a pump operates it imparts energy to the water. That water can now do work, like operate a water wheel. But in our systems the water does nothing. It simply returns to its starting point, just like the dropped object returned to the table. Since the system is nearly silent, the energy must be returned in the form of heat.

The better pumps, like the Laing and Iwaki, have more advanced impeller designs that can move water more efficiently than a Mag or many other aquarium pumps, which have very simple impeller designs. So look to the better pumps to give you more water volume for less heat build up.

Last edited by Graystar; 09-26-05 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 09-26-05, 02:13 AM   #8
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That is a low flow, low psi "pump". As I have used one in the past, I would call it a mechanical syphon device if you catch my drift. Don't waster your 16.50 unless you have a corded electric drill and a spare hand to hold the drill when your pc is on.

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Old 09-26-05, 04:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
Those 20 watts will end up as heat in the water.
So if all the output power is used to heat up the water, what is the point of a pump? What moves the water? Where does the kinetic energy come from?

Quote:
If you lift an object off a table you build up energy. If you drop the object the entirety of that energy is released through sound (when the object hits the table) and heat.
It is not 100% sound and heat, the table will deform slightly (absorbing a lot of energy) when the object applies an impulse to it.

Quote:
When a pump operates it imparts energy to the water. That water can now do work, like operate a water wheel. But in our systems the water does nothing. It simply returns to its starting point, just like the dropped object returned to the table.
I dont know about your loop, but mine is quite restrictve and is not frictionless. The water needs constant kinetic energy applied to it to be able to continue to circulate. The pump must continue to do work to the water, or am i not getting what you are trying to explain?
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Old 09-26-05, 06:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
So if all the output power is used to heat up the water, what is the point of a pump? What moves the water? Where does the kinetic energy come from?
The purpose of the pump is to move the water. The pump doesnít care if youíre watercooling, watering the lawn, or pumping water out of your basement...its job is to load up water with potiential energy, bringing it to a higher energy state. How that water gets back down to a lower energy state is your business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
It is not 100% sound and heat, the table will deform slightly (absorbing a lot of energy) when the object applies an impulse to it.
Actually, itís 100% heat. Sound heats the air, and deforming a solid heats that solid. Take a piece of metal and bend it back and forth for a bit then touch the bend. It will be hot. It all turns into heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
I dont know about your loop, but mine is quite restrictve and is not frictionless. The water needs constant kinetic energy applied to it to be able to continue to circulate. The pump must continue to do work to the water, or am i not getting what you are trying to explain?
Lets say the pump was filling a tub 20 feet in the air. The action of the pump is kinetic. More than simply being in motion, it is transferring energy. So, the Iwaki MD-20RZ is transferring its 20 watts into the water as it pushes it up to the tub. But remember, this pump is rated at 50 watts. So the pump consumed 30 watts of power, turning it into heat, in order to impart 20 watts worth of energy into the water. At this point the pump is done and is out of the picture. If you open a drain in the tub then the water will flow out, returning to its previous state, and being heated on impact. Or, the water can turn a waterwheel, have a nice cool trip down to its previous state, and perform the same type of transfer the pump just made, but to some other device...such as a grindstone. As with the pump, there will be a cost associated with the transfer in terms of friction of the moving parts. So maybe you end up with 10 watts of power at the grindstoneís business end.

As you said, you have a restrictive loop. There is an energy cost associated with pushing water through small holes at a certain speed. That energy is turned into heat through friction. The faster the water, the more heat is generated. The speed of water through your system is determined by the number of watts available to push it, and turn into heat. More watts equals faster flow.

Some time ago where was a discussion as to how much more water a Mag 5 pump will push than a Mag 3. People thought the Mag 5 will push more because it had a zero-head rate of 500 gph, as opposed to the Mag 3 which had a zero-head rate of 350 gph. I, however, said that the two pumps would have the same rate of flow...and when measurements were finally made and charted, the two pumps did indeed have the same flow rate in a watercooling system. Why? Because both pumps had the same head...and the head rating (a measure of fluidic energy) is directly related to the BHP of the pumps.

Last edited by Graystar; 09-26-05 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 09-26-05, 08:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
The purpose of the pump is to move the water. The pump doesnít care if youíre watercooling, watering the lawn, or pumping water out of your basement...its job is to load up water with potiential energy, bringing it to a higher energy state. How that water gets back down to a lower energy state is your business.
I don't beleive you addressed the question.
Quote:
Actually, itís 100% heat. Sound heats the air, and deforming a solid heats that solid.
The object applies a force to the table, it is deformed; something moves - this requires a force, kinetic energy, to do so. It is not 100% heat.
Quote:
Take a piece of metal and bend it back and forth for a bit then touch the bend. It will be hot. It all turns into heat.
The vast majority of the force is used to break the metallic bonds.
Quote:
Lets say the pump was filling a tub 20 feet in the air. The action of the pump is kinetic. More than simply being in motion, it is transferring energy. So, the Iwaki MD-20RZ is transferring its 20 watts into the water as it pushes it up to the tub. But remember, this pump is rated at 50 watts. So the pump consumed 30 watts of power, turning it into heat, in order to impart 20 watts worth of energy into the water.
Yep. I am in agreeance with you here. Pumps are not 100% efficient. My MD-30rz get exceptionally hot.
Quote:
At this point the pump is done and is out of the picture. If you open a drain in the tub then the water will flow out, returning to its previous state, and being heated on impact. Or, the water can turn a waterwheel, have a nice cool trip down to its previous state, and perform the same type of transfer the pump just made, but to some other device...such as a grindstone. As with the pump, there will be a cost associated with the transfer in terms of friction of the moving parts. So maybe you end up with 10 watts of power at the grindstoneís business end.
The water applies a force to the water wheel to make it turn, friction saps some more energy too. Yes, when it impacts there will be heat, but again, not 100%.

Ein = Eout.

Ein = EKpumpoutput

Eout = (mass_of_waterwheel * acceleration_of_waterwheel) + sound (which is really EK) + heat (and so is this if you want to be pedantic).

Quote:
As you said, you have a restrictive loop. There is an energy cost associated with pushing water through small holes at a certain speed. That energy is turned into heat through friction.
Some of it is, sure. But the system is pressurised (by the pump), and thus exerts a force on the walls of the loop, which because of newtons laws, is applied back to it (by the atmosphere).
Quote:
The faster the water, the more heat is generated.
Friction sucks hey.
Quote:
The speed of water through your system is determined by the number of watts available to push it, and turn into heat. More watts equals faster flow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
So if all the output power is used to heat up the water, what is the point of a pump? What moves the water? Where does the kinetic energy come from?
Quote:
Some time ago where was a discussion as to how much more water a Mag 5 pump will push than a Mag 3. People thought the Mag 5 will push more because it had a zero-head rate of 500 gph, as opposed to the Mag 3 which had a zero-head rate of 350 gph. I, however, said that the two pumps would have the same rate of flow...and when measurements were finally made and charted, the two pumps did indeed have the same flow rate in a watercooling system. Why?
Because the restriction curve of the test system was to steep to take advantage of the MAG5's extra flow capacity and/or the accuracy of the flowmeters was not good enough.
Quote:
Because both pumps had the same head...and the head rating (a measure of fluidic energy) is directly related to the BHP of the pumps.
Explain. I would have thought it would be more due to the impellor design. All the high head pumps i have seen use a closed impellor design, ie Iwaki MD-XXz & RD-XX, panworld PI-XX, laing DDC, D4 & D5 all are considered high head pumps, all have closed impellors.
The Iwaki MD-30 R, RX & RZ all have the same output power, yet their head ratings are vastly different.
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Old 09-26-05, 09:05 AM   #12
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That is a 'siphon' pump. It is not a siphon but is to be used in place of one. My roommate uses them to work on cars. Oil, trans, anti, etc, (Separate one) It works well for short controlled runs but most of them do start to fail after 18 months. That is 18 months of maybe once or twice a day for 10 minutes.
MTBF of 5000 hours or 6 months.
$16.50+tax and shipping + motor + power > DD5 + Power

For the discussion on Friction / heat. The 'good' pump will convert most of the power into kinetic energy but the water flowing thru the tubes causes friction and that becomes heat. yes, there is friction of the blades of the pump thru the water and a pressure change that creates heat but the flow of water is the killer. So design a water cooling system without water flow and that stops that problem
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Old 09-26-05, 09:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
The object applies a force to the table, it is deformed; something moves - this requires a force, kinetic energy, to do so. It is not 100% heat.

The vast majority of the force is used to break the metallic bonds.

Some of it is, sure. But the system is pressurised (by the pump), and thus exerts a force on the walls of the loop, which because of newtons laws, is applied back to it (by the atmosphere).
Please correct me if Iím wrong, but it appears as though you believe that some portion of the energy is consumed by the work thatís being done and then itís gone. I think thatís where the misunderstanding is.

Remember Conservation...energy can neither be created nor destroyed...only converted from one form to another. The MD-20RZ consumes 30 watts to put 20 watts into some water. Those 30 watts are converted to heat. That pump is giving off 30 watts worth of heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
Because the restriction curve of the test system was to steep to take advantage of the MAG5's extra flow capacity and/or the accuracy of the flowmeters was not good enough.
No, thatís not it at all. Iíd guess that your misunderstanding comes from a misunderstanding of what the head rating is. Head does not equal pressure. You can get pressure from head but you have to combine the specific gravity of the liquid involved (if memory serves...) Head is a measure of energy.

The best way to visualize the differences might be to think of a 60mm Delta for heatsinks vs. a 120mm Delta for case cooling. The 60mm fan is small and has far fewer CFM than the 120mm, but it can develop lots of pressure and push air down in between fins that the 120mm Delta, with its greater CFM, couldnít reach. In this case, volume contributes nothing to the task of cooling deep between fins.

This is the case with the pumps. In a free-flow situation, the Mag 5 will push more water. The energy stored in the water doesnít come into play. However, when you start restricting the flow, the water starts to burn through its potential energy to get through the restrictions. Since both pumps put the same amount of energy into the water, the rates of flow are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
Explain. I would have thought it would be more due to the impellor design. All the high head pumps i have seen use a closed impellor design, ie Iwaki MD-XXz & RD-XX, panworld PI-XX, laing DDC, D4 & D5 all are considered high head pumps, all have closed impellors.
The Iwaki MD-30 R, RX & RZ all have the same output power, yet their head ratings are vastly different.
Youíre absolutely right... canít have high head without an impeller designed for it. And yes, the pumps still have nearly the same power rating. But did you notice the change in volume? They are just as dramatic as the change in head. And they are inversely proportional. That is, the more head (energy) the less volume. In the end, the same amount of energy is imparted onto the same volume of water. In a closed watercooling system, all the MD-30s will pump water at the same rate.
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Old 09-26-05, 03:43 PM   #14
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I believe a derivative of that concept is a thermosyphon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skotti
So design a water cooling system without water flow and that stops that problem

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Old 09-27-05, 01:04 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
Please correct me if Iím wrong, but it appears as though you believe that some portion of the energy is consumed by the work thatís being done and then itís gone. I think thatís where the misunderstanding is.
Hmmm...
Quote:
Remember Conservation...energy can neither be created nor destroyed...only converted from one form to another. The MD-20RZ consumes 30 watts to put 20 watts into some water. Those 30 watts are converted to heat. That pump is giving off 30 watts worth of heat.
Perhaps you are right. I will have to think about this. You just blew my mind after all.
Quote:
No, thatís not it at all. ....* Snip.....Since both pumps put the same amount of energy into the water, the rates of flow are the same.
Image
Quote:
Youíre absolutely right... canít have high head without an impeller designed for it. And yes, the pumps still have nearly the same power rating. But did you notice the change in volume? They are just as dramatic as the change in head. And they are inversely proportional. That is, the more head (energy) the less volume. In the end, the same amount of energy is imparted onto the same volume of water.
So if the curves are integrated, the answer will be the same?
Quote:
In a closed watercooling system, all the MD-30s will pump water at the same rate.
image2
I hope you know what i am trying to say by this picture
These are the pump curves of a 30r/z/x done as best i could in paint. Plus two random test 'loops' i made up to illustrate my point.
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Old 09-27-05, 06:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
I hope you know what i am trying to say by this picture
Yes I do. The intersections of the loop with the pumps would indicate that youíll get vastly different flow rates across the three pumps. This is incorrect.

Iíve always felt that the use of the PQ curve has been a problem on this forum because people donít understand what itís really telling you. First, everyone thinks the ďPĒ in PQ means Pressure, but it actually means Power, and these curves are referred to as Power Curves in the pump industry. Second, the flow in the PQ chart is free-flow. When you chart it against a restricted, closed loop, youíre comparing apples to oranges.

As I said, head is a measure of energy. What the PQ chart actually describes is how much energy is being transferred to the water at various free-flow rates. It is a theoretical relationship that doesnít actually relate to any true physical pumping ability of the pump (in terms of gph.) Youíve probably noticed that some manufacturers state the max flow rate at 1ft of head instead of 0ft. The reason is that itís impossible for any pump to operate at 0 head. That would mean that the water coming out of the pump is at the same exact energy level as when it came into the pump. Even if you lay the pump on its side, the water still has energy imparted to it. So 1ft represents a more realistic gph from the pump...but not that much more realistic.

The Mag 3 and Mag 5 pumps are perfect examples of the theoretical nature of the PQ curve. Both pumps are physically identical with the same inlet and outlet sizes. People couldnít understand how one can pump 350 gph as 0 head while the other can pump 500 gph at 0 head, with both pumps having the same max head. The answer is that neither pump can actually pump those amounts of water, and what the curve tells you has nothing to do with the actual pumping of water. It simply describes how much energy is imparted to the water at various rates of free-flow. Thatís all.

Our systems are not free flowing. They are closed. When you close the system then the PQ curve doesnít mean much. This is a pushing match between the pump and the restrictions of the loop. The more horsepower available to push, the faster the water will flow. Output power is really the measure we are looking for.

That said, a high head rating is preferred for us because it means that the pump will operate closer to its most efficient operating point (BEP.) And thatís a good thing.
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Old 09-27-05, 07:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
Iíve always felt that the use of the PQ curve has been a problem on this forum because people donít understand what itís really telling you. First, everyone thinks the ďPĒ in PQ means Pressure, but it actually means Power, and these curves are referred to as Power Curves in the pump industry.
What do you call this then? (taken from the .pdf for the laing DX) Also why are the units listed as MH2O or Pa?
Quote:
Second, the flow in the PQ chart is free-flow. When you chart it against a restricted, closed loop, youíre comparing apples to oranges.
It is a graph of the flow vs dP. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please enlighten me.
Quote:
As I said, head is a measure of energy. What the PQ chart actually describes is how much energy is being transferred to the water at various free-flow rates.
Are you sure you are not refering to a hydraulic power vs dP chart?
Quote:
The reason is that itís impossible for any pump to operate at 0 head.
This is wrong. My MD-30RZ has a head of 8m. If i attach a length of tubing that is <8m long on the output the pump will be at dead head and no water will flow.
Quote:
The Mag 3 and Mag 5 pumps are perfect examples of the theoretical nature of the PQ curve. Both pumps are physically identical with the same inlet and outlet sizes. People couldnít understand how one can pump 350 gph as 0 head while the other can pump 500 gph at 0 head, with both pumps having the same max head. The answer is that neither pump can actually pump those amounts of water, and what the curve tells you has nothing to do with the actual pumping of water.
The curve describes the theoretical flow chracteristics of the pump. You cannot reach the maximum flow cos the pump housing itself makes a restriction on the water. pic at system cooling

Quote:
Our systems are not free flowing. They are closed. When you close the system then the PQ curve doesnít mean much.
Yes it does. As it relates the instantanious backpressure differential across the pump to the flow.
Quote:
This is a pushing match between the pump and the restrictions of the loop. The more horsepower available to push, the faster the water will flow. Output power is really the measure we are looking for.
Yes hydraulic power vs flow charts are much nicer.
Quote:
That said, a high head rating is preferred for us because it means that the pump will operate closer to its most efficient operating point (BEP.) And thatís a good thing.
High head is better cos our loops are more restrictive these days, more availiable pressure means more flow is possible.
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Old 09-27-05, 09:09 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
What do you call this then?(taken from the .pdf for the laing DX) Also why are the units listed as MH2O or Pa?
Like I said, once you have a specific liquid you can calculate a specific pressure. A pump that can pump water, alcohol, and light oil will develop different PSIs, but the head rating remains the same. Thatís why head is used...it applies to all liquids.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
It is a graph of the flow vs dP. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please enlighten me.
What Iím trying to say is that back pressure values are pitted against a free-flow calculation. Our systems arenít free-flowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
Are you sure you are not refering to a hydraulic power vs dP chart?
Well, thereís so such thing as ďhead pressureĒ, but I think that chart is trying to show the BEP(?) Thatís where you want to be operating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
This is wrong. My MD-30RZ has a head of 8m. If i attach a length of tubing that is <8m long on the output the pump will be at dead head and no water will flow.
Um...I think zero flow means youíre operating at max head...right? And I think you mean ď>8mĒ. And have you tried this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phextwin
The curve describes the theoretical flow chracteristics of the pump. You cannot reach the maximum flow cos the pump housing itself makes a restriction on the water.
Are you saying that a Mag 5 canít physically pump 400 gallons of water? And if it can, then why canít a Mag 3 pump 350?
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Old 09-27-05, 03:38 PM   #19
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I sold those when I worked at NAPA autoparts last year. For like $8.00. They are ment to be used for either gas or oil, and are only for small transfers of fluid, not continuing use. Like emptying a 2 gallon container into another, or removing fluid from an oil pan/fuel tank in a car.

They are cool though in the fact that all of them are self priming, unlike the pumps we use for pc use.

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Old 09-27-05, 05:31 PM   #20
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i was going to reply to graystar, but realized that the only thing i was doing was flaming.

please don't preach about thermodynamics unless you understand it yourself.

sound is kinetic energy. dropping a box doesn't creat mainly heat energy....

i need to stop... i'm getting angry at you
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