choosing a core 2 duo chip to overclock

threepointone · Oct 1, 2006

Currently, I've gotten most of the parts to my computer. The motherboard is a p5b deluxe, and the ram is 2x 2x 1gb corsair ballistix pc2-6400 (4gb total).

I still haven't decided on whether to get the e6600 or e6300. From what I've been reading, it seems like many people are easily getting 3.4ghz+ OCs on the e6300, while it is considerably more difficult for e6600, for whatever reason, to overclock more than maybe 3.2 ghz or so.

Yet if I look at the records for the fastest OCs on all the c2d processors (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59753) it's clear to me that the e6600 is definitely better than e6300 at OC'ing, if you look at the fastest CPUs.

Is there any "trick" for OC'ing that is necessary to get that fast? Perhaps there is some more advanced cooling necessary? IIRC, someone said that the p5b deluxe (the board used by the fastest c2d OCs above) doesn't like a certain range of fsb speeds with cpu higher multipliers, and going faster supposedly would help. Does that make sense at all, and is it safe?

btw, if I get the e6300, I will definitely spend the extra money saved on making a diy water cooling / peltier cooling rig. However, if I really, really feel that it would be worth it to give the e6600 additional cooling, i might do the same for it, although more likely I'd go with a nice air cooling system.

And a few basic questions about OC'ing I haven't figured out yet:

Is it the heat or the voltage that kills a processor first, typically? For example, if you had an ideal infinite heatsink, could you ever destroy a processor (i mean within like maybe 2 volts or so, obviously putting 1000 volts across anything will probabaly destroy anything no matter how cool it is)

Also, what typically prevents us from getting very high FSB speeds? Is it perhaps some motherboard component becomes too hot, or because you need more voltage across some component on the motherboard? I know eventually (I've got a bit of experience in electronics) stray capacitance or inductance on the board will eventually degrade digital signals to the point of instability, but considering that some people have gotten 500+mhz fsb, I suspect that some other factor comes into play for people who can't get the fsb so high.

rainless · Oct 1, 2006

threepointone said:
Currently, I've gotten most of the parts to my computer. The motherboard is a p5b deluxe, and the ram is 2x 2x 1gb corsair ballistix pc2-6400 (4gb total).

I still haven't decided on whether to get the e6600 or e6300. From what I've been reading, it seems like many people are easily getting 3.4ghz+ OCs on the e6300, while it is considerably more difficult for e6600, for whatever reason, to overclock more than maybe 3.2 ghz or so.

Yet if I look at the records for the fastest OCs on all the c2d processors (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59753) it's clear to me that the e6600 is definitely better than e6300 at OC'ing, if you look at the fastest CPUs.

Is there any "trick" for OC'ing that is necessary to get that fast? Perhaps there is some more advanced cooling necessary? IIRC, someone said that the p5b deluxe (the board used by the fastest c2d OCs above) doesn't like a certain range of fsb speeds with cpu higher multipliers, and going faster supposedly would help. Does that make sense at all, and is it safe?

btw, if I get the e6300, I will definitely spend the extra money saved on making a diy water cooling / peltier cooling rig. However, if I really, really feel that it would be worth it to give the e6600 additional cooling, i might do the same for it, although more likely I'd go with a nice air cooling system.

And a few basic questions about OC'ing I haven't figured out yet:

Is it the heat or the voltage that kills a processor first, typically? For example, if you had an ideal infinite heatsink, could you ever destroy a processor (i mean within like maybe 2 volts or so, obviously putting 1000 volts across anything will probabaly destroy anything no matter how cool it is)

Also, what typically prevents us from getting very high FSB speeds? Is it perhaps some motherboard component becomes too hot, or because you need more voltage across some component on the motherboard? I know eventually (I've got a bit of experience in electronics) stray capacitance or inductance on the board will eventually degrade digital signals to the point of instability, but considering that some people have gotten 500+mhz fsb, I suspect that some other factor comes into play for people who can't get the fsb so high.

In a nutshell: 965 is an Allendale chipset. Some people (dominick32 comes to mind) have done very well on the P5B-Deluxe with an E6600 (think he was using phase, but he got 4ghz out of it). But as a general rule of thumb you want a 975 chipset of the Conroes and a 965 for the allendales. Also I'd say get an E6400 over an E6300. You'll have a lot more headroom with the 8x Multi.

jcll2002 · Oct 1, 2006

rainless said:
In a nutshell: 965 is an Allendale chipset. But as a general rule of thumb you want a 975 chipset of the Conroes and a 965 for the allendales.

why?

rainless · Oct 1, 2006

jcll2002 said:
why?

Oh I'm sure all the ocforums experts will be able to answer that better than I, but basically it has something to do with the timing on the 4mb cache of the Conroe. The lower cache of the Allendales makes them overclock better. The chipset itself is pretty friggin' loose. Most of the time, at similar FSB a 975 chipset will bench better than a 965. Of course that's almost immediately offset once the 965 then goes PAST the 975 into the realm of 520+ FSB. But then again sometimes no, sometimes the slower clocked 975 is still faster. That's the difference in chipset.

threepointone · Oct 1, 2006

So what does it take, then, to get to this magical 520fsb?

is it more fidddling around with the bios settings, or cooling, or sheer luck with what chips you get?

rainless · Oct 1, 2006

Q

threepointone said:
So what does it take, then, to get to this magical 520fsb? is it more fidddling around with the bios settings, or cooling, or sheer luck with what chips you get?

Well I got around 520, HumanBeatBox got 520, some dude from Virginia got 529... I don't think it's really a question of cooling. I have one of the worst water cooling systems on the market. Overclocking is almost ALWAYS the result of bios fiddling. You up the MCH you up the Vcore, you up the DMM volts and then you just start upping the FSB. Any of the big Allendale boards (DS3, P5B Deluxe, P5B-E, DS4, DQ6...) Should be able to hit 520 no problem. I recommend getting an E6400 and dropping the Multi to 7. Instant 500mhz (with the latest bios of course.) With an E6400 you'll be able to do it with fewer volts and at a lower temperature than just about any other Core 2 Duo I've seen. I've seen E6600s that took up to 1.5 volts just to get to 3.6ghz. I forget how high HumanBeatBox is running his E6300, but you don't want to base anything off of him because he has a MAGICAL E6300. I think the E6400 is the perfect budget chip.

Otherwise, if you're going to get an E6600, get one of the Conroe boards: The P5W DH, The P5WDS 64, the Intel badaxe revision 302 I believe. Those will get you to 4 ghz.

Class dismissed!

hUMANbEATbOX · Oct 1, 2006

first of all, i don't think i have a magical e6300. actually, i kinda want a newer one.

(get back to this in a moment) i only put 24/7 settings in my sig.

basically, a successful OC is the sum of all its parts. if you have ram or a psu that is going to let you down, it doesn't matter what cpu you have.

the week of the cpu is very important IMO. newer week cpu's tend to oc higher at lower volts from what i've seen. of course there is always an exception to the rule. my e6300 is a week 26. week 27 and 28 chips are already out in the wild, and i've read that as new as week 31 have shipped from Intel (maybe even newer). most of the brand new chips are still going to OEM's i would imagine, so it might take a couple weeks for newegg or the like to get them. i would like to sell my e6300 and get a new one, depending on what the newer weeks results look like.

rainless, your watercooling is still better than 99.5% of the aircooling setups out there, maybe with the exception of my ghetto duct

if you are going to buy a e6400 just to drop the multi, then save a few bucks and buy a e6300.

the main reason to buy a e6600 is for the extra cache. 965 will oc a e6600 just as good as a 975 board, in capable hands. AFAIK, the extra cache is not a hinderance when ocing on 965. look at Ross, with 570fsb on his p5b-dlx + e6600.

oh and one more thing, its rev 304 of the badaxe that supports C2D. the other rev's need to be modded.

MadMan007 · Oct 1, 2006

rainless said:
In a nutshell: 965 is an Allendale chipset. Some people (dominick32 comes to mind) have done very well on the P5B-Deluxe with an E6600 (think he was using phase, but he got 4ghz out of it). But as a general rule of thumb you want a 975 chipset of the Conroes and a 965 for the allendales. Also I'd say get an E6400 over an E6300. You'll have a lot more headroom with the 8x Multi.

I think this is a bit of a misconception still being held over from the earliest C2D overclocking when the chipset options and BIOSes were limited. For an e6400 or e6300 you want the 965 chipset for the higher FSB options, but there's nothing wrong with using 965 motherboards for e6600s if one doesn't want the features or cost of a 975 board. Heck if someone wanted to they could even use an e6300 or e6400 in a 975 board if they want the features it has like better Crossfire they are just less likely to get the max oc out of the CPU. In other words, there's nothing in the hardware itself that dictates 'x CPU is only good on y chipset.'

So it's not:
e6300/e6400 = 965
e6600+ = 975
but more like:
e6300/e6400: 965 much preferred for max CPU oc and because the total price is lower with 975 a distant second.
e6600 and up: 965 or 975 are equally valid, depending on motherboard features one wants.

threepointone · Oct 1, 2006

hUMANbEATbOX said:
the week of the cpu is very important IMO. newer week cpu's tend to oc higher at lower volts from what i've seen. of course there is always an exception to the rule. my e6300 is a week 26. week 27 and 28 chips are already out in the wild, and i've read that as new as week 31 have shipped from Intel (maybe even newer). most of the brand new chips are still going to OEM's i would imagine, so it might take a couple weeks for newegg or the like to get them. i would like to sell my e6300 and get a new one, depending on what the newer weeks results look like.

that's good--I'll probably wait a while as c2d prices inch down a bit more and more recent batches come out. I'm still a bit undecided on this, so it also gives me some more time to think--

And one question on the PSU, how much more power does a system with an OC'd CPU usually use? I've got a seasonic s12 500w, which I hope should provide enough power for everything.

hUMANbEATbOX · Oct 1, 2006

threepointone said:
And one question on the PSU, how much more power does a system with an OC'd CPU usually use? I've got a seasonic s12 500w, which I hope should provide enough power for everything.

not all 500w psu's are created equal, it would come down to the specs of the PSU. IMO, the ideal would be a single rail psu with a +12v rated at 30a or more. again, there are exceptions..some people have had good experiences with dual rail psu's...i don't think i would ever buy one though.

rainless · Oct 1, 2006

hUMANbEATbOX said:
not all 500w psu's are created equal, it would come down to the specs of the PSU. IMO, the ideal would be a single rail psu with a +12v rated at 30a or more. again, there are exceptions..some people have had good experiences with dual rail psu's...i don't think i would ever buy one though.

My old PSU was a single rail with 20A on the 12v. But it was an LC Power. My NEW PSU has 2 12v rails... but it's the Fortron Bluestorm. The new power supply blows away the old one and anything else in its price range. If you have like 4 18A 12v rails it's pretty much going to annihilate any 40A single rail (unless it's a Power PC and Cooling or Zippy brand...) on the market. So I don't really buy into the whole single vs. dual thing.

And the Seasonic power supplies are pretty good anyway, so he should be fine.

The quality of the components and the company that made the thing (not the brand on it, but the OEM) is more important than whether it's single or dual.

hUMANbEATbOX · Oct 1, 2006

rainless said:
If you have like 4 18A 12v rails it's pretty much going to annihilate any 40A single rail (unless it's a Power PC and Cooling or Zippy brand...) on the market.

pretty much the only people who make psu's with 40a on the +12v ARE PP&C and Zippy, and other high end brands. only very high end power supplies come with ratings like this.

the lesser psu's use multiple rails to boost the overall wattage to make it sound better.

what do you think is more powerful, a 700w psu with one rail, or a 700w psu with 4 rails?

*edit* here is a nice post i just found about dual/quad-rail psu's: http://www.ocforums.com/showpost.php?p=4602069&postcount=218

choosing a core 2 duo chip to overclock

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