Implications of Chinese computer hardware manufacturing

This is a continuation of this thread, as we got a bit off topic there.

So, what is your take on Chinese manufacturing of computer parts? Is it a good thing? A bad thing? Will we be seeing triangular-shaped processors in our future? Check the labels...how many of your parts say "Made in China"?

Woah, everything except for my CPU and RAM was made in China... never looked for that.

TBH(IMO), we're just screwing ourselves over, almost everything I own says "Made in China", and that's where most of my money is going.

Eventually China will have the wealth and power to do anything they want, and when that time comes... well, I expect the next WorldWar to break out.

China vs. Poor-*** me, if things go this way for too long.

On the other hand, cheers to AMD!

I really do not worry about quality, but I of course like to see things I buy made in my own country but that has not been happening lately. Really something needs to be worked out because right now a lot of jobs our being outsourced and in the future based on how technology is developing, even more will be losing their jobs. Either a type of communist/Well Fair plan will have to come into act or some restriction will have to be laid down. (On a side but somewhat related note, a lot of countries are decreasing in population due to it costing to much to raise kids, anyone think that will ever happen to America?)

tenchi86 said:

I really do not worry about quality, but I of course like to see things I buy made in my own country but that has not been happening lately. Really something needs to be worked out because right now a lot of jobs our being outsourced and in the future based on how technology is developing, even more will be losing their jobs. Either a type of communist/Well Fair plan will have to come into act or some restriction will have to be laid down. (On a side but somewhat related note, a lot of countries are decreasing in population due to it costing to much to raise kids, anyone think that will ever happen to America?)

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A couple of things:

Things have been getting outsourced for a long time now. You may or may not remember back in the 80s when Japanese cars took the US market by storm and everyone was certain that we would all be speaking Japanese before the turn of the century; didn't happen just in case you were wondering.

The current trend for manufacturing outsourcing both creates new opportunity and jeopardizes existing industries in "developed" countries. The trick is to be able to see the direction the wind will blow and take advantage of it.

In terms of dropping population rates in some countries; financial issues are only part of the equation. Social, religious and political considerations also come into play. Discussion of population issues, however, is probably outside the scope of the General Computer Related Discussion and definitely off-topic to the thread...

Our economy is post-industrial so the only things that you're going to see manufactured here are specialized, complicated, or goods that cannot be made and redistributed any cheaper from elsewhere.

Assuming that everything "Made in China" is of lesser quality is kind of silly because it's up to the company to establish quality control standards that would apply no matter where the factory is located.
The VAST MAJORITY of everything you buy is made in China. From expensive luggage, to designer bags, to clothing, to appliance parts. If it doesn't say where it was made, in all likelyhood it was made in China.

Computer hardware manufactured exclusively in the United States wouldn't be price competitive because the cost of all of the connectors would be anywhere from three to ten times higher. There's more to consider than just the labor costs in an industry like this one that is so heavily automated.
Shipping items out of China is also extremely inexpensive compared to other locations.

Our economy is post-industrial

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wouldn't be price competitive

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Unfortunately, this is very very true.

I hope china isnt powering up to take over the world and internets.

Eventually I think China's economy can surpass much else of the world's. I honestly would not be surprised at this rate if China's economy could equal the US' within 20 years. I believe too much work is outsourced, and our own country could greatly benefit if at least a little more work was done on our own soil. We depend on so many other countries right now. When WW3 happens (which it will...) I think the US will be in some serious trouble if trade and other communications stop.

Enough with the paranoia. Aside from pestering Taiwan and some of it's other neighbors occasionally it doesn't have any larger aim except to give the vast majority of it's citizens decent paying jobs instead of having them toil in subsistence agriculture. Pretty much the same situation we were in during the second half of the 1800s.

reclaimer122 said:

Eventually I think China's economy can surpass much else of the world's.

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Not entirely likely since they're advancing further than their political and ecological system can keep up AND they don't have the natural resources (both raw materials and agriculture) required to keep up their current pace. They're GOING to hit a ceiling or a dangerous recession if the Chinese government doesn't try to control things more wisely.
China also has some serious problems with local government corruption.

reclaimer122 said:

I believe too much work is outsourced, and our own country could greatly benefit if at least a little more work was done on our own soil.

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Sorry, but I can't see what possible benefit retaining manufacturing jobs would have. All of your clothing, electronics, appliances, light bulbs (the list goes on and on) would cost twice as much as they do now. And foreign competition keeps domestic industries competitive and prevents monopolies. I personally would like to see fewer subsidies and fewer incentives given to crappy domestic companies (like Ford).

reclaimer122 said:

We depend on so many other countries right now.

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It goes both ways. There are plenty of things we cannot obtain cost effectively or reliable from within our borders. Especially certain raw materials needed to make goods, like boxite which gets refined into aluminum.

reclaimer122 said:

When WW3 happens (which it will...)

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Economic interdependence and shared prosperity is what prevents wars, it's not what starts them (research "The Marshall Plan"). China has no legitimate reason to fight us over anything and wouldn't last very long in an armed conflict since it relies heavily on imports for commodities (food and raw material). Nevermind that China isn't really a unified political entity.

^^ brilliant
ill just add a few things

alot of people fail to realise that there is more to outsourcing than just the fact that its cheaper, companies also setup factories over there to gain access to the untapped chinese market. There will ALWAYS be outsourcing.

which is exactly what is in the article, intel setting up the chipset factory to supply that region

also the money isnt just going one way to over there, remember who is setting up the factories or buying chinese made goods...American companies, a portion of that money is going right back to home.

why would they want a war, if the world is war torn who are they going to sell to or who is going to invest there. This is the same reason why you see them trying to "calm" the north korea situation, if there is war in the region its bad for business.

one last thing i think alot of people fail to realise is that china is boosting alot of other countries economies, just look in that region...japan, australia, korea, etc

Doesn't china have more of our money than we do? investment wise...

I've heard things about them buying so many federal bonds or something that they could collapse the dollar. However, considering how much we buy from them I don't see who that is in the best interests of, nor do I entirely believe that it's the case in the first place, just the musings of one of my professors.

I've found when paying attention to items I used over a four day period that 16% of the items I used were made in China, second only to the US. Only half of those items "made in China" were electronics-related. As far as Chinese-manufactured or assembled electronics go I've been pleased with the quality, with the exception of that capacitor fiasco from four years ago.

My first Lanparty Ultra-B motherboard was made in Taiwan and worked great, my second was made in China and it's been working great for years.

Western society is paying for the rise of the next super power. IMO China is stratigically causing a trade deficite to bankrupt western society. When China is rich, they will use thier wealth, and Russian expertise to wage war.

Oroka Sempai said:

Western society is paying for the rise of the next super power. IMO China is stratigically (sic) causing a trade deficite (sic) to bankrupt western society. When China is rich, they will use thier (sic) wealth, and Russian expertise to wage war.

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That would be contrary to the ideology, alliances, and self-interests of all parties and is thus highly unlikely.

Captain Slug hit the nail on the head. China has no interest in "killing the golden goose". Sustained economic and cultural development is more aligned with the current party policy these days. If they can just straighten out their environmental issues...

Captain Slug said:

Enough with the paranoia. Aside from pestering Taiwan and some of it's other neighbours occasionally it doesn't have any larger aim except to give the vast majority of it's citizens decent paying jobs instead of having them toil in subsistence agriculture. Pretty much the same situation we were in during the second half of the 1800s.

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I think a certain measure of paranoia is justified, during the 1800s the United
States was determined to expand economically at all costs, there was a great deal of government sanctioned industrial espionage going on in Europe at the time, and the goal was not simply a benevolent desire to raise the quality of life of US citizens. While I don't believe for one moment that they are spoiling to invade the west, I think it is is naive to credit China with anything less than ruthless economic expansionism. If the goal was raising the quality of life, then why is their economic miracle killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of workers?

Captain Slug said:

Not entirely likely since they're advancing further than their political and ecological system can keep up AND they don't have the natural resources (both raw materials and agriculture) required to keep up their current pace. They're GOING to hit a ceiling or a dangerous recession if the Chinese government doesn't try to control things more wisely.
China also has some serious problems with local government corruption.

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I agree, and I think the ceiling is inextricably linked to the very basis of China's wealth. AFAIK The bulk of their economy is based upon the export of cheap mass manufactured goods sold at vast markup. However there are real limits on the market for such products, and particularly if too much outsourcing of jobs leads to an economic downturn in the west. Another issue is rising fuel costs, presumably it is going to become increasingly less cost effective to ship goods over vast distances as the fuel overheads rise.

Captain Slug said:

Sorry, but I can't see what possible benefit retaining manufacturing jobs would have. All of your clothing, electronics, appliances, light bulbs (the list goes on and on) would cost twice as much as they do now.

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As I see it there are two benefits, the first is that it keeps employment up.
There are always those who will never be useful for any employment other than unskilled or semi skilled labour and many of those jobs are being outsourced. Higher employment means more people paying tax, and fewer dependant upon any welfare system there is.

Retaining manufacturing capacity is also strategically important. While war is unlikely, we don't know what our future relationship with China will hold. Russia is currently holding a number of more natural gas dependant European countries to ransom as it is their main or only supplier.
I
agree that economic interdepandance is a positive thing, but to be so totally dependant upon a single potentially hostile nation's manufacturing capability is a dangerous mistake.

China has no problem with stealing technology from other countries. I just read a article about how China bought a Airbus A320 airliner, and it dissappeared, and shortly afterwards announced they plan to build thier own airliner by 2012 (IIRC). They dissasembled the plane, and will proably copy it as close as they can. They are doing it with the MD-80 airliner right now, they did it with the Boeing 707 in the late 70s but did such a bad job they didnt continue out of safety concerns.

How about the GM Spark.



In factorys that make brand name electronics for the Western world, they create copycats IN THE SAME FACTORY under domestic chinese names. They block sales of western movies in the name of 'preserving Chinese culture', but promote pirated DVDs. They flood western markets with junk products, while block nearly all imports into China.

The USSR learned they can not out military the USA and her allies, we have too much money, so China is going to try to out Money the USA. Could you imagine a country with the economy of the USA, with 4x the population? That is ALOT of money. China is making crazy money, while the USA is going $1.5 BILLION in the hole EVERY DAY. Hard to wage war (in defence) if you got no money.

On reflection my last post was probably a bit too political, though it was on the economic and historical side.

This is turning into a really interesting discussion, so lets all try and keep this either economic or abstract enough that it doesn't get locked.

It used to be a lot of talks like this thread when people read "Made in Japan" during 60s to early 80s, prolly by baby boomers (post WWII) generation or our dads. And even worst when it came to my grand dad, I remember he hated so much anything that smell "Japs", since he lived thru the WWII era & lost couple relatives killed by Japs and thinking of using the product made by his enemy that he used to fight was really difficult at that time.

mobo China, RAM Taiwan, rest I have no clue.

Also: how much of the stuff in your daily life says made in China. I mean come on...