I'm tired and annoyed at FAH

I just need to vent for a second. I have been folding for over 6 years now - I finally took the lead in WU's (TIA) but it kind of irks me that 48 CPU's is doing 80K/PPD and me with 130 CPU's is at barely 10K PPD. Are my WU's so worthless? Cause if they are Ima stop folding. I don't fold for the points, never have but, why should I keep 130 machines folding? Am I missing something? The Win SMP client sux dung and I won't run it - I can't have it barfing up every 2 seconds. Meh, I'm just a bit peeved and feel like my contributions are pretty worthless and I may seriously switch projects (don't ask me what I dont know).

Sorry for the rant, I'm just not seeing how this is worthwhile anymore.

You're right Nik, it's not about the points.

It's for the Science.
It's for the ones we've lost because of stupid things like Cancer.
It's for the ones still with us, who we want to save.

Every machine, every WU, each of us count and make a difference.

I'd still be running 502, but was forced to update.

You've been around a lot longer than me, I can understand a little
of what you say about running so many machine and not seeing a difference.

You do make a difference Nik.
A VERY BIG difference, at least I think so.

Hang in there.
We all are doing something worth while.
Fighting for a better future for those we are going to leave behind one day.

WII

I'm confused, your saying that you aren't in it for the points...but are angry about not getting the same amount of points?

Completed WUs are what contribute to the simulations, not ones that are more points....so if you do more WUs, your probably helping F@H more than people w/ less WUs but more pts.

130 CPU's

Should the 130 you have be eclipsing the 48 you mentioned? I'm no folder and have always been a little skeptical about distributed computing projects, I mean in all the years people have been folding has anything significant come of it? If you need a new project I have a suggestion for you, one that will be a little easier on the bank account

El<(')>Maxi said:

130 CPU's

Should the 130 you have be eclipsing the 48 you mentioned? I'm no folder and have always been a little skeptical about distributed computing projects, I mean in all the years people have been folding has anything significant come of it? If you need a new project I have a suggestion for you, one that will be a little easier on the bank account

Click to expand...

Check out the "Results" section on the Folding website

Sure the results aren't very significant to normal people, but they are doing stuff.

Keep it up nik,,,, please.

psy

I'm lovin' the SMP_FAH VM/Linux points bonus a lot but not at the expense of the rest of the projects.

You have 130 processors and I only have two C2D processors and yet I'm getting over 25% of your total PPD. I'm sure your total efforts are vastly more valuable to the science than mine are.

It's totally unfair and Stanford ought to get it straighted out soon or they will lose the standard windows clients on most dedicated folders with multiple machine farms. I'm about to pull my last two 5.04 windows SP machines as they just consume too much power and I have to economize since I'm unemployed. I burned out my Xeon duallie running FAH for 3 years straight 24/7 and it should have lasted much longer. The power outlay was ~10kWh/day just for that machine.

I think you should PM or post over at the Stanford FAH forum and explain your issue. They should listen as you are way up in the rankings and that should garner you an audience from the people who make the benchmark/points decisions.

Hang in just a little longer Nik. You're still the pwndaddy around here.

The points/science ratios are very distorted right now but they should get straightened out before too long once all the new toys get mainstreamed.

nik... I understand your rant... and I don't believe the current points disparity is fair either. Things just aren't on even keel anymore and hopefully Stanford will do something about it with the v6 client. Unfortunately until then it appears we're stuck.

Your dedication over the years has inspired us all... it would be a sad day for T32 and the Project if you were lost. Your contributions to the Project & to the Team are above and beyond what most will ever accomplish... and I just think it would be a shame for you to stop here.

Please keep up the Fold.

jcw122 said:

I'm confused, your saying that you aren't in it for the points...but are angry about not getting the same amount of points?

Completed WUs are what contribute to the simulations, not ones that are more points....so if you do more WUs, your probably helping F@H more than people w/ less WUs but more pts.

Click to expand...

I think he means because his WUs are worth so few points, he feels that maybe he is not actually making a difference in the project or else the units would be worth more.

Anyway of course you are making a huge difference, one of the biggest in the world and you can tell that simply by looking at how long you have been at it and with how many computers. Anyway it is up to you, but in all honesty if you are going to switch please do consider that you are making a huge difference in a project that has actually shown results, unlike many other projects out there.

Nik, I know exactly how you are feeling because I hit the same point a few months ago. It more than just irked me; it royally ****ed me off. I still have 1 rig folding with the Linux SMP client. I left it folding purely for the science. And I have a few borgs here and there still turning in some wu's. But I feel that since Stanford came out with all these new clients for gpu folding and smp folding and ps3 folding and now it looks to me like they think my normal machines running normal clients aren't worth doodley-squat. Stanford is alienating long-time folders like you and me with the way they have totally broken the points scales. And even though points really don't mean anything to you, you are still human and Stanford is now telling you that your contribution isn't worth 1/8 as much as someone else with smp/ps3/gpu setups, which are their baby darlings right now.

jcw122 said:

I'm confused, your saying that you aren't in it for the points...but are angry about not getting the same amount of points?

Completed WUs are what contribute to the simulations, not ones that are more points....so if you do more WUs, your probably helping F@H more than people w/ less WUs but more pts.

Click to expand...

jcw, he is not in it for the points per se; however many points he gets means nothing really. What he is mad about is that now that Stanford has got their new flashy playtoys out there and have assigned them a true disproportionate amount of points/wu compared to the wu's that Nik and I have been doing for the project for the last 6 years, it sends along the message that what we have contributed to date and still are contributing are now unimportant and inconsequential. At least that's the read I get on the whole deal.

In my case, I did pull most of my folding farm off F@H and I am now helping out the other big DC project of OC Forums, which is Seti. It's not because I think we will find little green men because I don't think little green men from outer space would be stupid enough to try to communicate by something that's limited to the speed of light. But the Seti project is much more fair in the points awarded in the wu's they send out to crunch than F@H and I am having fun with our Seti team and helping another OC Forums DC team out in the process. I'm not telling Nik or anyone else to do what I did but if you aren't happy with F@H and the way they broke the points system totally then vote with your feet and walk to another project with most of your power.

If and when Stanford gets off their @SS and fixes the points situation is when I will bring the rest of my farm back to F@H.

I hear ya nik. I have a couple machines that I have given away because the PPD/electricity use doesnt' make sense anymore. Trying to find rigs that'll run the SMP, but at the same time, trying to stay married.

Sometimes I keep doing it because I feel like I have to, like it's expected of me. I no longer desire to do it for myself, or really for others. Maybe that sounds heartless, but it's the way I feel.

I will admit seeing zim01 come on board (albeit for a short period of time) kinda charged me up again....got a couple duallies running that should get me around 1800ppd....but people are getting numbers like that from one machine.

Stanford should reimburse us for the equipment we have to buy.

tenchi86 said:

I think he means because his WUs are worth so few points, he feels that maybe he is not actually making a difference in the project or else the units would be worth more.

Click to expand...

Bingo. Guys, this is not a woe is me thread... I just dont understand. If someone like Vijay told me my units did make a difference, cool. But, the current state of things seems wrong. Remember, I am far out of the loop, I don't know what is really going on in FAH these days. It is just disconcerting when someone with 48 CPU's can generate over 8x the points as 130 CPU's. It's not about the points AT ALL. But how do I gauge what my units value are in terms of science? They ought to be related and it seems they are not. I can see plenty of folks leaving the project over this.

nikhsub1 said:

I can see plenty of folks leaving the project over this.

Click to expand...

This is something they should be more sensitive to I think. You are correct that they could lose people over stuff like this. I have noticed a trend over the past couple of years that the work that a person did say 3 or 4 years ago is worth almost nothing compared to the work done over the past year in terms of points. IMHO they should structure the point rewards in a way that a top of the line rig today produces roughly the same PPD as a top of the line rig 3 years ago would have. This way that don't trivialize the hard work that people have done over the years with the ever inflating point rewards we are seeing.

I realize that multiple cores has a significant impact, and so it is hard to make that apples comparison anymore, but a cheap dual core machine these days can put out PPD that far exceeds what 2 state of the art machines could have done points wise just a couple of years ago.

With the concern over global warming I wonder if all those KW dumped into projects like this are worth it

jcw122 said:

Check out the "Results" section on the Folding website

Sure the results aren't very significant to normal people, but they are doing stuff.

Click to expand...

Please don't roll your eyes @ me, I mentioned I am not familiar with F@H and I just asked a simple question.

Audioaficionado said:

You have 130 processors and I only have two C2D processors and yet I'm getting over 25% of your total PPD. I'm sure your total efforts are vastly more valuable to the science than mine are.

Hang in just a little longer Nik. You're still the pwndaddy around here.

Click to expand...

harlam357 said:

Your dedication over the years has inspired us all... it would be a sad day for T32 and the Project if you were lost. Your contributions to the Project & to the Team are above and beyond what most will ever accomplish... and I just think it would be a shame for you to stop here.

Please keep up the Fold.

Click to expand...

the above statment from Audio & Harlam really sums up what I wanna say and feel from you Nik!! no matter what, you ARE my REAL POWAH DADDY!!! you are THE ONE who really inspired me!!

and please don't forget, every single WU counts (even tho they don't count the same way in "point" of view)!! who knows, may be the "cure" WU is folded by you!! and with all those WUs that you've folded, you sure have the best chance to find the cure for us!!!

so please, Nik!!!!

Hey nik if it wasn't for people as dedicated as you are I don't think it would attract individuals like me. (which may or may not be a big deal) I would see someone that talks a good game but doesn't walk it. Where I come from (a little city on the East coast called New York City) talk is definitely cheap and you don't seem to talk a lot about folding you just fold. That is very important to someone like me, unfortunately , like a lot of people, I've run into my share of BSer's, con artists and people that think they can walk on water. Obviously you are not in that category PLEASE don't throw all your good work away and leave . I'll admit I took advantage of the Linux SMP client, but an old time folder, like you, told me to enjoy it while it lasts because one thing for sure the project will change. I do hope Stanford finds a more equitable point structure, but like most technology, I guess it just seems to be getting away from them. Just think of all the people you're helping. Hey nik, the above is only my opinion, I'm certainly not telling you what to do (except maybe a little on the quitting folding )

It doesn't seem fair for the value a person's contributions(in any context) to be judged by arbitrary standards, yet that's surely how it turns out. I guess what makes a person's actions mean something is who those actions are important to.

I hope you continue to fold, not just so our team will have your points but because it will be your spirit and participation that will be missed the most.

I have to admit, I have been away from the project for a while and am just recently getting back online. Probably due to publicity from things like GPUs, SMP clients, and PS3s. I have none of these folding.

Back in the day, I was so proud of my nearly 4ghz I had folding. I mean, it wasn't much but for a HS student who could barely afford an upgrade cycle, it was decent. I guess my point is that back then you were putting out massive power, and you still are. Sure, it isn't reflected on the points scale, but your contribution is still incredible. I was inspired to get as many people folding as I could back then, and now am again. You played a major part in that inspiration. Regardless of what you choose to do, you have earned my infinite respect for your contributions.

My take on it is enjoy the points, but don't take them seriously. If you can't buy a cup of coffee with a million of them, just how much value should we put on 'em?

Unfortunately, the SMP points got too rich, but I can see why Vijay did it that way. He can't get his crystal ball to work, and wants to be sure a new ciient (radically different), will attract a good number of folders to try it, and make it a worthwhile client. When the SMP project goes out of beta, a points adjustment will be made, which should put your feeling of being displaced, to rest.

That's why the PS3, according to Vijay, did NOT get the points that it might have otherwise gotten. He posted on FAH forums that he didn't want to alienate his PC user base.

I believe just updating a few of your rigs each year to C2D's would give you a huge morale boost. Prices are always coming down (on most components, anyway). They also use significantly less power than older rigs, so they do help pay for themselves.

As for results - well, some disease foundations are funding Vijay's work in part, to have him quickly study certain proteins, under certain conditions, and how they fold.

I'm sure it's not entirely due to Vijay's sartorial splendor, in his lab coat.

The difference is FAH can get data on a protein's folding behavior in a few months, that would take years and lots of $$$ to find via actual work in a lab, with that same protein. Not to downplay the critical work of the labs, but to heighten the fact that lab work studies can require years before a series of experiments and their analysis, can be completed.

Adak

Adak said:

Unfortunately, the SMP points got too rich, but I can see why Vijay did it that way. He can't get his crystal ball to work, and wants to be sure a new ciient (radically different), will attract a good number of folders to try it, and make it a worthwhile client. When the SMP project goes out of beta, a points adjustment will be made, which should put your feeling of being displaced, to rest.
Adak

Click to expand...

That is kind of my read on things. I believe the escalated points are advertising in a way. The wu points have been escalating steadily since ver 2 came out. The Stanford peeps may figure this is the best way to garner new young recruits with there hot new systems as well as keeping us old farts upgrading our silicon. I spent 300$ this past week on stuff I know I don't need its just to take advantage of the current smp pointage.

At any rate, I would hate to see your user name slide down the stats list nik. I remember the smack talk wars between you and Wedo back when Wedo was the #1 producer on the team. Ultimately its your decision whether your hard work is worth giving to the cause, but like everyone else I would hate to see ya go.

Edit: http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=283484
2nd Edit: Here a thread to reflect back on http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=78590