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TRUE vs WATER: Comparison on OC'd i7 Platform.

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Old 09-14-09, 01:34 AM Thread Starter   #21
baditude_df
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4.2GHz results up.
Multi increased to 21x, Vcore increased from 1.184/1.232v to 1.200v/1.264v.

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Old 09-14-09, 12:23 PM   #22
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Again, appreciate the testing! It is the 4.4ghz to 4.6hz that will have biggest difference, so will be most interesting.

I really like how you are doing the test though, you can look at what fan speed you like (noise tolerance) and make an informed choice. Dont know why this has not been done before, very informative.

And even if someone does not get as good chip in low vcore requirment, they can extrapolate to higher mhz/vcore and get a rough idea. Also, even though chips can vary 5-10C at same load, the relationship between true and water will still be ~same.

BTW, first time I ever suggested this, but this should be stickied, will make a great reference post.

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Old 09-14-09, 02:06 PM   #23
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baditude_df, very well done man!

As a matter of fact, this is good enough for me to throw a little glue on this thread for you, to make it easier to find.
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Old 09-14-09, 03:44 PM   #24
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nice nine very nice
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Old 09-14-09, 10:13 PM Thread Starter   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rge View Post
Again, appreciate the testing! It is the 4.4ghz to 4.6hz that will have biggest difference, so will be most interesting.

I really like how you are doing the test though, you can look at what fan speed you like (noise tolerance) and make an informed choice. Dont know why this has not been done before, very informative.

And even if someone does not get as good chip in low vcore requirment, they can extrapolate to higher mhz/vcore and get a rough idea. Also, even though chips can vary 5-10C at same load, the relationship between true and water will still be ~same.

BTW, first time I ever suggested this, but this should be stickied, will make a great reference post.
Thank you, and my pleasure.

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Originally Posted by muddocktor View Post
baditude_df, very well done man!

As a matter of fact, this is good enough for me to throw a little glue on this thread for you, to make it easier to find.
It's been a while mud. Good to see you again.

And, Much obliged.

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Old 09-16-09, 02:15 AM Thread Starter   #26
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Updated with H20 results for both 4.4 and 4.6GHz stops.
It's all I had time for tonight. I'll throw the TRUE on and complete the testing tomorrow night.
Some notes:
1. HT had to be disabled to complete the testing. See Observations in the 4.4GHz post.
2. Voltage increased to 1.280/1.328v and 1.328/1.392v for 4.4 and 4.6GHz respectively.

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Old 09-16-09, 03:04 AM   #27
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Good job!! Very informative and clearly laid out...


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Old 09-16-09, 05:32 AM   #28
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Old 09-16-09, 07:10 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baditude_df
4.2 GHz is definitely the maximum frequency where you can expect any measure of acceptable cooling and 24/7 stability with HT enabled (AIR or H2O). If you want acceptable noise level to go along with that, the 4.0GHz level is where you need to be (AIR or H2O).
There are many people with posted 8hr+ prime stable 4.3, 4.4, even up to 4.6ghz on water with reasonable temps, many using reasonably quiet fans like your 1500rpms. I am surprised you had problems with stability at 4.4 on water, given your cpu. But I think you illustrate why many have upgraded their water systems with these chips. Little surprised at your load temps given you are using external rad and your fan speed. Did you measure water temps, just trying to see where your cpu is different than mine, detla air to water or delta cpu to water. My intake ambient 23C, water temp 27.7C, delta cpu to water 40c using avg temps, 41-42C using max temps, at 4.4ghz, 1.36-1.375 cpuz idle, 1.344cpuz load. When ambients 24.5C on some runs, increase everything by 1.5C.

I can do 4.4 with max 73C temps prime stable even with fans turned down to 1200rpms (granted 2x360 rads), which is very quiet. Same reason martin and others on xtreme are going to 2x360 rads for cpu only, quiet + max OC.

When I first got my i950 and ran prime with my old water setup, 1x360 rad, 1300rpm fans, GTZ, mx2 tim, and internal rad, using hot internal air to cool rad, I loaded at low 80's C max after 12 hrs prime, mid to high 70's within 20 mins, but was still prime stable at 4.4ghz. Part of problem I was heating my local intake case ambients, among many other things after 12 hours.

Then reversed fans to use external cooler air (4-5c cooler, especially with 1hr+ loads), upgraded to HK, made better overall case airflow, redirected airflow in back so could not recirculate into ambient intake, and got GT fans, then 10 hrs prime stable at 4.4 with max 76C temps at ~23.5C ambients. I posted couple times on xtreme in other threads my temp changes with various changes.
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/382...rimebios8f.jpg

Then used 2x360 rads with only 1300-1400 rpm fans, upgraded tim to indigo, and now prime 8 hrs quietly with push/pull GT with only 71C max temps this again 23-23.5C ambient. Can turn fans down to very quiet 1200 and still get good temps.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6...e70maxtemp.jpg

But even running 4.5ghz with 1.4 vcore now, I am only in mid 70's and stable for 4 hrs prime...this is only 10 mins though 4.5ghz, after 4 hrs temps will be ~3C higher max realtemp.
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4536/4500temps.jpg

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Last edited by rge; 09-16-09 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 09-16-09, 11:07 AM Thread Starter   #30
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Quote:
There are many people with posted 8hr+ prime stable 4.3, 4.4, even up to 4.6ghz on water with reasonable temps, many using reasonably quiet fans like your 1500rpms. I am surprised you had problems with stability at 4.4 on water, given your cpu. But I think you illustrate why many have upgraded their water systems with these chips. Little surprised at your load temps given you are using external rad and your fan speed. Did you measure water temps, just trying to see where your cpu is different than mine, detla air to water or delta cpu to water. My intake ambient 23C, water temp 27.7C, delta cpu to water 40c using avg temps, 41-42C using max temps, at 4.4ghz, 1.36-1.375 cpuz idle, 1.344cpuz load. When ambients 24.5C on some runs, increase everything by 1.5C.
This is the first time I've had the chip up that high, so there's bound to be some optimization in the near future. The 4.4 and 4.6GHz testing last night took place in a ~3hr period b4 I had to crash. I was actually looking forward to revisiting them both, but TBH I don't think there will be much change. We'll see.

Was HT enabled in those other cases? I see by your caps that it was. For me, 4.4 and 4.6Ghz with HT disabled had little in the way of stability issues, once the proper voltage was applied. An HT Enabled 4.6GHz with reasonable temperatures and noise with a single triple rad(for a 24/7 setup), seems pretty much un-doable from my experience to far. Like you said, with some extra disipation from a second triple rad, likely you would be able to remove enough heat with 1200-1500RPM fans to have a great setup. I am liking your results, and it seems you are using similar Vcore yes?
Did not measure water temps. Pretty simple RealWorld comparison I'm afraid.
Stability would definitely be improved with some more time in the BIOS at 4.4 and 4.6GHz. POST and Boot were successful the first time for all settings, so a bit of tweaking would likely result in much better system stability.

Like I said before, I am looking to find the best fit from a frequency/cooling versatility/noise standpoint, and provide some realistic examples to help people make informed decisions.
I will be revisiting all the testing done here, no only with some enhanced BIOS settings, but also adding some additional factors, such as push pull fans on the air, measuring water temperatures (delta determination), different TIM etc. But not before the basic scope of testing is done for the comparison purposes originally laid out in the first post of this thread.

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Old 09-16-09, 11:33 AM   #31
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Nice write up. Good to see that water is worth the money again We just need a processor hot enough to make it necessary

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Old 09-16-09, 06:49 PM   #32
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Very nice testing Bad



I really need to get me a Rheobus and some real fans on here someday, I'll get there I imagine.

The ones on here not too horrible atm, I went more for quieting things down a bit lately I guess

Just have a couple Noctua NF-P12-1300's on the TRUE here and a couple NF-S12B FLX on the rear of the Antec 1200, works halfway decent I guess, quiet at any rate.

Put 3 of these guys on my front bays and one on the side window, they seem to work pretty well, I like them better than the tri-cools I had there personally anyway.

http://www.jab-tech.com/Arctic-Cooli...M-pr-4412.html

Tried a couple CM R4's out and worked a bit better than the Noctuas on the CPU cooler, but not enough for the noisier fan IMO I guess. I switched back as I'm not trying to set any speed records by a long shot I guess.


Last edited by MongGrel; 09-16-09 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 09-16-09, 08:29 PM   #33
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Great write up and answers the question "Is high-end air good enough for Intel silicon furnaces?". Apparently only if the fan is blasting at full speed.

Hopefully when I get into i7 or i9, the 32nm die shrink will allow me to run pedal to the metal with air in relative quiet.

My Commando isn't silent, but still quiet enough to keep in my bedroom while folding 24/7/52.

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Old 09-16-09, 08:44 PM Thread Starter   #34
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Thx.
And if you look at the results for the 4 or 4.2GHz, the i7 with HT enabled is easlilly tamed with AIR at a relatively quiet ~1200RPM as long as you're not in the middle of a heatwave with no A/C.

Speaking of heatwaves, it's 30+ here today, I hope it cools off enough tonight to finish the AIR runs for 4.4 and 4.6GHz.

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Old 09-18-09, 09:41 AM   #35
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Thank you very much baditude_df

You certainly put a lot of effort into this! I'm sure I'm not the only member here that appreciates all your hard work.

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Old 09-18-09, 10:13 AM Thread Starter   #36
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Np. I've been busy in a course all week and taking care of my regular duties at the same time, so I've had little time to tackle the rest of the testing. I should be good to go this weekend however.

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Old 09-18-09, 12:27 PM   #37
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Hope you can get a run with HT on if possible at 4.4 at least. Here was someone on OC.net with lapped/washer modded true with 4.4 linx 1hr with max avg core temps of 88C.
http://www.overclock.net/attachments...-club-linx.jpg

Looking at his minimum core temps vs mine, his ambient was roughly 3C lower than mine, I get max of 73C using exact same specs with same linx for 1 hour. So 18C difference between his true with san aces in push/pull vs 2x360 rads with 1300-1400 rpms, but dont know what rpms yet, but hopefully he will post them. But again, differenct cpus can have 5-10C diff in temps.

Hope u can get 4.4 ht on with same cpu, if possible.

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Old 09-18-09, 01:16 PM Thread Starter   #38
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YEah, I'll gitter dun. I will likely add subsets to the AIR data so we can see the diff between, 1 fan, push pull, washer mod and different TIM vs the Water Loop.
I've been working a bit on the BIOS and have been able to lower the Vcore a bit. That should help.
Of course this means that I will be redoing the H2O tests at the 4.4 and 4.6GHz stops to go along with that and keep things fair.

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Old 09-20-09, 10:03 AM   #39
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Sounds good, since adding indigo xtreme, dropping loads 3 more C, decided to rerun 4.5...

4.5Ghz overnight 11hrs prime. 1.43vcore bios, 1.39cpuz load, 1.34vtt. Also a camera pic of same run with fluke thermocouple of rad intake ambients ~23.2-23.7C. Load temps are low 70's. Again 2x360 rads, Scythe GT 1450-1500 rpms on controller, HK wb. If I run my fans at 1200 rpms, water and core temps increase about 1.4C. Dont know what a true would do, but wifes scythe with push/pull 1850rpm GT loads at 95-100C with same settings.



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Old 09-20-09, 01:42 PM Thread Starter   #40
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Thank you for continually sharing your results here. It's good to hear from someone else with a WC'd 950 (even if you do have two rads in your loop). Your BIOS parameters appear to be very close to mine, across the board.
I just flashed to the latest BloodRage BIOS (was on stock P06 before). It seems to be helping a fair bit on the overclocking side, but I can't help but think that either the board or RAM are holding me back somewhat. We'll see.
It's a nice cool day today, so I'm hard at work getting all this done.

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