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Old 12-16-09, 01:46 PM Thread Starter   #1
Voodoo Rufus
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Help choosing an HDTV


Hey folks,

I'm looking to buy a 40-42" 1080p HDTV for my upstairs living room. This will be my first and only television for the foreseeable future (finished basement home theater eventually).

I'll list my uses, requirements, and two possible choices for a TV, and hopefully you members can help me finalize my decision.

Uses:

Blu-ray playback via PS3 - Must be correctly displayed as in either excellent 2:3 pulldown or 1:1 playback
Gaming via PS3 - The Force Unleashed, Gran Turismo 4/5

Requirements:
Good picture quality
Correct 24p playback that won't kill my eyes
Under $1000
1080p-60 capable for future HD content
40-42"

I've narrowed it down to these two.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16889187121 - For its good picture quality and THX mode. Fully resolves 1080 lines in 2:3.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16889005075 - For its 240Hz mode with 5:5 24p playback.

I would like to know if there's any others I should consider and why, or which you would choose between the two listed.

Thanks!

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Old 12-16-09, 02:05 PM   #2
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I wouldn't worry about 240Hz as a decision maker really. 120Hz is plenty. For gaming i've actually found it distracting and usually turn it off and use 60Hz.

All it does is smooth out action scenes to minimize blur and give make it more realistic (by supplementing a frame in between frames) , but when you go as high as 240Hz, you start getting the "home camcorder" or "shaky-cam" effect.

Another one to look at would be the Samsung LN40B630

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Samsung+...&skuId=9300437

Also supports PS3/Blu-ray 1080p/24.
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Old 12-16-09, 08:01 PM   #3
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LG uses IPS panels at this price point so they do have a great picture…..but the G10 has a great picture also. LCD’s even with 120 or 240HZ still don’t do fast action as good as the plasma. They also don’t have as good of viewing angles of plasmas. I think the response time with IPS panels is something like 6ms while the plasma is less than 1ms. Also considering you’re going to be putting it in a basement, which is where plasmas come to life……there should be no question. I would only recommend the LG if you were going to put the TV in a bright room with lots of sunlight, other than that I think the G10 is the better choice.
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Old 12-16-09, 08:51 PM   #4
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LG uses IPS panels at this price point so they do have a great picture…..but the G10 has a great picture also. LCD’s even with 120 or 240HZ still don’t do fast action as good as the plasma. They also don’t have as good of viewing angles of plasmas. I think the response time with IPS panels is something like 6ms while the plasma is less than 1ms. Also considering you’re going to be putting it in a basement, which is where plasmas come to life……there should be no question. I would only recommend the LG if you were going to put the TV in a bright room with lots of sunlight, other than that I think the G10 is the better choice.
You won't match the G10's color accuracy or PERCEPTIBLE contrast ratio until you get very high in LCD's-- like Samsung 6000 series and up.

The LG set you picked out vs the G10 is a joke. G10 all the way.

Even the U series (second from the bottom, I have it) from Panasonic destroys the LG 4/5 series TV's.

The only thing you'll lose with plasma is a bit of sharpness. You'll also lose a bit of brightness-- and due to the reflectivity of a glass panel you will not get good viewing in a brightly lit room.

If those are not concerns get the plasma.

If you DO go LCD, you need to spend about $2000 to equal the sub $1000 G series plasma. Honestly.

If you do go LCD look at Samsung first. They are currently superior in all facets to all other panels. I'm anal with screens. I've done lots of research and side by side comparison just for kicks.

If you have $1000 to spend you MUST get the G10 and never look back.

Another thing to consider is that you'll never quite match the fine contrast ratio of a good plasma- and that IS a good plasma.

IE- Ice hockey- even the Samsung 8000 series (top of the range for their mainstream models) fails to show the level of detail in terms of skate marks on the ice that even a U series Panasonic Plasma shows.

Granted, the colors are punchier in the samsung- but you can't match the fine contrast of Plasma.

THAT said, Plasma will never be quite as good for dark scenes. Never quite as good for CG graphics and movies, never quite as good for games. It's very delicate.

You'll be very happy with a G plasma. I assure you.

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Old 12-16-09, 08:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo3f1sh View Post
I wouldn't worry about 240Hz as a decision maker really. 120Hz is plenty. For gaming i've actually found it distracting and usually turn it off and use 60Hz.

All it does is smooth out action scenes to minimize blur and give make it more realistic (by supplementing a frame in between frames) , but when you go as high as 240Hz, you start getting the "home camcorder" or "shaky-cam" effect.

Another one to look at would be the Samsung LN40B630

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Samsung+...&skuId=9300437

Also supports PS3/Blu-ray 1080p/24.
No offense, but 240Hz does not introduce a shaky effect.

One thing that can happen is if you have a cheaply implemented frame doubling/quadding/etc that increases vertical refresh but doesn't touch the horizontal, you'll get severe judder in sideways movement (may be what you're reffering to)

Sony is the best for sideways movement because they apply their frame doubling equally in horizontal and vertical refresh rates. Having said that, their TV's have a poorer color gamut across the spectrum than Samsung and unless you PURELY watch sports and action movies this is not worth swaying over.


ALL Tv's in the price range the OP is looking at will support 1080P and 24Hz. that's a given.

That samsung 630 is a great set. Is it as good for general TV use as the G plasma? No. Again, you need to spend double or more to match it in an LCD.

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Old 12-17-09, 03:29 PM Thread Starter   #6
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This TV will be going in my living room, but whenever I choose to watch a movie it'll be nighttime anyway so room lighting will not be an issue.

I'd really like the Panasonic 50" V10, but at $2k and it's size, it would have to go downstairs in the basement. That's a ways down the road.

OCnoob, I thought plasmas excelled in the dark scene arena due to the black levels they can produce compared to LCDs. Can you clarify further? I am a big sci-fi genre buff, so good motion reproduction is desirable.

Looks like I should go for the G10, unanimously pretty much. This might end up being my Xmas present to myself.

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Old 12-17-09, 10:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
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This might end up being my Xmas present to myself.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
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Old 12-17-09, 11:59 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Voodoo Rufus View Post
This TV will be going in my living room, but whenever I choose to watch a movie it'll be nighttime anyway so room lighting will not be an issue.

I'd really like the Panasonic 50" V10, but at $2k and it's size, it would have to go downstairs in the basement. That's a ways down the road.

OCnoob, I thought plasmas excelled in the dark scene arena due to the black levels they can produce compared to LCDs. Can you clarify further? I am a big sci-fi genre buff, so good motion reproduction is desirable.

Looks like I should go for the G10, unanimously pretty much. This might end up being my Xmas present to myself.
Best black level = OLED followed by LCD with LED backlight (full array) followed by Plasma followed by LCD with LED edgelight followed by LCD (CCFL)

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Old 12-18-09, 03:59 PM Thread Starter   #9
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Are there any Full-LED backlit LCDs in my price range that are worth a darn?

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Old 12-18-09, 05:41 PM   #10
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Are there any Full-LED backlit LCDs in my price range that are worth a darn?
No.

Sharp Aquos LE700 series. It's full array backlit- however, it offers no advantages over an edgelit model in this instance as it does not offer local dimming (where some areas of the screen are backlit and some are not, for the best black level and contrast available).

It also uses a TN panel with a highly advanced coating to create a wide viewing angle. Sharp says it's a 10-bit panel. I've spent a fair bit of time watching it and it does not compare favourably with any other 10-bit unit I've ever seen.

You'd be looking at a good quality 120Hz or 240Hz CCFL (fluorescent lamp) backlit LCD.

There are really good TV's from Samsung (general use/gaming) and Sony (sports) in your price range. Do they have the contrast level or color gamut or overall smoothness of the G1? No. Do they have the color accuracy? No. Are they THX certified for color? No. Are the black levels as good? No.
However- WHITE levels are better. "Perceptible contrast" may appear higher due to the higher brightness of an LCD panel. There aren't technically as many gradiations of light and dark on the screen but since the picture is so 'punchy' you may perceive it as higher contrast.

A Plasma is a delicate sophisticated woman with very specific tastes who doesn't like to step outside her comfort zone. BEST for movies.

An LCD is a go out and party live loud girl. She might not have a degree or be as sophisticated and well travelled, but she knows what she likes and she's more fun to play with.

A Plasma will NEVER look as good for gaming. It's just not the kind of picture you want. It's not quite as sharp. It's not as bright. Sure- you'll see a more accurate wider color spectrum and notice delicate picture details you hadn't seen before. You might also miss an enemy in a dark area, miss an item, etc.

I'd also like to add that I've seen a G series 2009 model in person. I want it. You won't be disappointed. Overall, best choice-- but there are compromises whatever you choose.
You want a Samsung 6000 or 8000 judging by your discerning taste but we're talking $3000+

Also, Panasonic is the absolute best company to deal with on the phone. They always get you to an actual person immediately. They answered all my random questions about my 42U when I got it. They have seperate plasma people and LCD people. You get someone who actually has every single plasma they make in the same room so if they dont know they can turn it on and say 'ya it does that too, no that setting isnt on this model' etc etc.
Their default warranty includes in-home service and they get someone out to you within a day or two.

I honestly would have ordered that G10 by now. The price is jealousy inducing.
Get a REALLY GOOD HDMI cable that's certified to the highest color bitrate possible (you'll notice the good cables are rated 8bit 10bit 30 bit etc). Splurge. It makes a massive difference on a good screen. I don't care what anyone says I've used a cheap, medium, and expensive cable on the same tv with the same equipment and they performed ok better and best for sharpness and color range. Set your PS3 to the Cyan/Yellow/Magenta high range, max out all the dynamic ranges, set the TV to THX mode, insert BLURAY.

If you don't notice yourself still gape mouthed and drooling after ten minutes I'll write you a check. That TV, for movies, is so good you'll want to cry. It's like being in an IMAX theater, just not as bright.
Games, meh. The 600Hz is nice. Panasonic's 600Hz drive is exceptional at interpolating frames in to games when you use HDMI. It makes GTA4, which as you know runs kinda choppy, run noticeably smoother.
Again though-- most people play games with the LCD TV's backlight maxed out, color set to vivid, etc. We want a REALLY punchy vivid in your face picture to notice all the details. A plasma will not give you that. It's organic. There's no punch to it.

With 600Hz, the little laser beams in The Force Unleashed, which I also play, appear as a smooth, gradual beam that actually looks like it got about 300 frames as it travelled across the screen. Completely believable fluid motion. Nothing like the "Left medium right" 3 frame laser beam you get when watching it on a 60Hz unit. And that's another improvement you'll notice with plasma. Because the way the unit handles a picture on a basic level- with phosphors instead of little doors that open and shut to let a backlight through with different filters, and the exceptional implementation of frame interpolation, which is much better than on any LCD I've ever seen with the exception of Samsung's elite models (x000 series) you'll notice a smoothness of picture you haven't experienced. For example, when watching an IMAX show on TV about fighter jets, the dust cloud that a jet makes skimming the ground at high speed looks like it exists for thousands of frames, though it's only on screen for five seconds. Motions you never knew existed are detected and interpolated by the TV- even if it's an ant walking in individual grains of sand-- which will be handled better on a plasma by the way- again- unless you get an LCD with god-like post-processing, as with the aforementioned Samsung), and that ant's stride is three frames per leg, you will see the FULL stride on a 600Hz plasma. EVEN though you're getting 30FPS frame doubled over a 60Hz progressive signal, that ant's legs WILL look like they're getting 600Hz on your TV. Even if that ant is only 30 pixels by 30 pixels on the screen. You really notice these things on a plasma. The first time you see a brightly lit ocean with all the little details in the water dancing in the wind you'll cackle like a mad scientist in a bad movie.

You really want that G. Seriously.

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Old 12-23-09, 03:17 PM Thread Starter   #11
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Well, I finally broke down and bought the 42" G10 this morning.

I'm hoping it'll be here Monday. My Force Unleashed disc is waiting patiently. When I get it I'll also switch my Netflix back to Bluray when available.

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Old 12-23-09, 03:44 PM   #12
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You chose wisely.. It's a very good TV - outstanding contrast that most LCDs can't touch. If I was buying right now, it would probably be the same. I have a Samsung and it's real nice too, but the new panny plasmas are really nice.
Congrats!!

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Old 12-23-09, 03:53 PM   #13
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Useful thread, thanks for the comments. I'm gonna have to refer back to this in the not so distant future.

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Old 12-23-09, 04:43 PM   #14
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what exactly are we suppose to be looing for spec wise when choosing ? i remember a long long time ago that the highest contrast ratio was one of them along with response time .. i went to wally world and sat and stared at tv's until 5-6 employees started circling me and pretending they were fixing things on the shelf's ..but out of all the tv's i thought the vizio was the best .. believe it was a 46" and dam cheap too .. but that was just watching a movie and i have no idea how or if it would be different hooking it up to a pc
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Old 12-23-09, 08:46 PM   #15
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what exactly are we suppose to be looing for spec wise when choosing ? i remember a long long time ago that the highest contrast ratio was one of them along with response time .. i went to wally world and sat and stared at tv's until 5-6 employees started circling me and pretending they were fixing things on the shelf's ..but out of all the tv's i thought the vizio was the best .. believe it was a 46" and dam cheap too .. but that was just watching a movie and i have no idea how or if it would be different hooking it up to a pc
Store display is mispeading. Are all the TV's on HDMI? Component? Maybe this one's on HDMI and that one's on RCA. Or maybe it was configured by a moron... who knows.

Vizio wasn't the best. I assure you.

You're looking for judder reduction in the form of frame interpolation (ie, 120Hz 240Hz (or in europe 100/200Hz) 600Hz), you want good 3:2 pulldown and 24P for movie playback. 1080P (obviously) native resolution. A high dynamic and static contrast ratio. A wide and accurate color gamut. THX certification is a good guarantee of this. A quality LCD display uses full array LED backlighting with local dimming (a section can have no backlight while another has full backlight-- ie an exploding spaceship, in space) these days. You also want to know what kind of display you're using. What panel type is it? Standard Plasma or PDP? LCD? TN? IPS? PVA? All these things make a huge difference.

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Old 12-24-09, 06:40 AM   #16
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Store display is mispeading. Are all the TV's on HDMI? Component? Maybe this one's on HDMI and that one's on RCA...
that i have no idea ill look next time im in the store .. wouldnt that just cause a duller picture ?

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Vizio wasn't the best. I assure you.
from what i seen it was the best picture they had in the store.. whether or not all TV's were at optimal settings and hooked up the same i have no idea but with minimal differences i wouldn't even have thought to question if one was on rca and the other hdmi.. how many places have you actually seen that has done this ? id think even wally world would have a fair playing ground .. maybe TV settings have been played with by customers but not the hook ups

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You're looking for judder reduction in the form of frame interpolation (ie, 120Hz 240Hz (or in europe 100/200Hz) 600Hz), you want good 3:2 pulldown and 24P for movie playback. 1080P (obviously) native resolution. A high dynamic and static contrast ratio. A wide and accurate color gamut. THX certification is a good guarantee of this. A quality LCD display uses full array LED backlighting with local dimming (a section can have no backlight while another has full backlight-- ie an exploding spaceship, in space) these days. You also want to know what kind of display you're using. What panel type is it? Standard Plasma or PDP? LCD? TN? IPS? PVA? All these things make a huge difference.
1. how does one look for judder reduction ? i have no idea what frame interpolation is...
2. what is 24 p ?? i though the only p's important were with 720p and 1080p ..
3. a high contrast ratio as in the millions ? and does every display type offer such a high ratio or only on say a plasma ?
4.when you say a good lcd uses full array led back-lighting .. are those the display considered led tv's ? or are the led TV's even a step higher than the LCD's which use a full array of led back-lighting ?
5. and to find out what panel it is for sure .. where can one find such info ? i don't think its on the brochure they have next to the price, would one have to just get the model number and then do some internet research ?


sorry for the questions .. but i seriously have no idea .. my last purchase of a supposedly hdtv (ready ..lol) was a long time ago.. and i basically bought it for what it looked like (no not the picture, but the TV itself lol ) ... so your patience is greatly appreciated .. imagine as is you were writing a big yellow book .. buying an hdtv for dummies
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Old 12-24-09, 07:17 AM   #17
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a lot of stores will purposely set 1 tv better than the next so it looks better and you by the one they want you to by not the one that looks best to you.

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Old 12-24-09, 07:28 AM   #18
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a lot of stores will purposely set 1 tv better than the next so it looks better and you by the one they want you to by not the one that looks best to you.
for what reason ?? i dont see how tricking someone into buying a cheaper tv would be in there best interest .. especially if the cheap one and the more expensive one have great pictures
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Old 12-24-09, 05:28 PM   #19
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for what reason ?? i dont see how tricking someone into buying a cheaper tv would be in there best interest .. especially if the cheap one and the more expensive one have great pictures
Higher profit margin, exclusive reseller deal, etc.

For example, Futureshop in Canada always suggest Samsung before any other brand. Your price is the same, their cost is not. They get Samsung TV's at a lower cost because they promise to push them hardest.

XTREME BARTON:

1. how does one look for judder reduction ? i have no idea what frame interpolation is...

Judder is most evident in horizontal movement. It is present in SD content but more obvious in HD because of the sharper image. When something moves from left to right but does not move smoothly- ie, a guy walks left to right at 30FPS but his jacket seems to skip an inch of movement on the screen every 5th of a second. A bird flies left to right and instead of being a completely smooth fluid movement it only appears to get five frames of movement from left to right and appears to be 'stuck' for a split second, not moving, for each of them. This is a combination of optical illusion and an actual motion reproduction problem that film and video have always had. It's called 'judder'. Judder is removed via frame interpolation or frame insertion-- but not all frame insertion is the same.

To keep it short, because I'm drinking and it's Christmas and my brain is on vacation, you're taking a 60Hz signal (60 refresh/second from your cable/sat--- if you are UK/EU it's 50). Within this 60Hz signal there are 30 frames of movement. A 60Hz TV will display each frame for two Hz. A 120Hz TV for four, 240 for eight. This, in and of itself, reduces judder.

Many current sets take this a step further in post processing (modern high end TV's have SERIOUS processing power in them--Toshiba put's IBM CELL CPU's in their better models). The post processing looks at the current frame and the next frame and says "I can make 4 frames in between these two. I have an image of a baseball. I know in the next frame it's two feet closer to that guy." it then DRAWS three fake frames and inserts them. The result is a much smoother picture. Beyond that, higher end TV's remember the baseball and look through all the frames of the baseball they have, pick out details like stitching and dirt, and then apply those to a blurry frame- so the baseball flying at 120MPH that may be blurry on your $450 60Hz TV is razor sharp and detailed and blurr-free on your $4000 240Hz TV.

that's the difference between frame DOUBLING and frame INTERPOLATION

2. what is 24 p ?? i though the only p's important were with 720p and 1080p ..

24P is just 24 frames per second. It means the TV can display 24 frames of motion per second accurately without frame dropping to deliver a more accurate reproduction of the original film with more movie-theater like movement. Some people hate this effect. Others can't live without it. Why P? P is for progressive. 24 frames, progressive scan.

3. a high contrast ratio as in the millions ? and does every display type offer such a high ratio or only on say a plasma ?

You will only get TRUE contrast ratio in the millions on a Plasma. Remember, dynamic contrast is the total possible contrast range, not the range on screen. That's static contrast, and is much more important. Dynamic contrast isn't worth looking at. You're more likely to see 30-50,000:1 on a decent plasma vs 3000-10,000:1 on a similarly priced LCD, though a high end LCD will approach Plasma for static contrast.


4.when you say a good lcd uses full array led back-lighting .. are those the display considered led tv's ? or are the led TV's even a step higher than the LCD's which use a full array of led back-lighting ?
Yes that's an LED TV. Not to be mistaken for an OLED with has no backlight and the pixels are self illuminating. Be careful to ensure the set you choose has local dimming. Some TV's, though they offer a full backlight LED array, do not locally dim, IE, Sharp's LE700 series.
5. and to find out what panel it is for sure .. where can one find such info ? i don't think its on the brochure they have next to the price, would one have to just get the model number and then do some internet research ? Exactly. Many companies include this in the PDF you can download for the model at their website. For example, LG and Panasonic use IPS displays in all their 'non-bargain' models. I personally don't like LG's IPS panels because they have 'C' shaped pixels and that's extremely noticeable to me.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

How much are we looking to spend here?
Can you get your hands on a Panasonic TCP42G10? Even a TCP42S10? The U1 would get the job done (I have one). It's a good budget model, great for TV. The only nitpick is that in standard settings dark areas in videogames aren't very intelligable. You can turn the brightness up but... meh. I don't game on it. It's freaking great for movies and TV though. The G10 uses a new type of panel and is THX certified and has EXCELLENT brightness contrast color etc. That's one of those grab it and don't look back purchases and would be my number one recommendation for you.
Also, you're getting 600Hz.

Look at TCP42G10/S1

if you want to consider their 37" 1080P 60Hz TV-- which is PUNCHY and has a beautiful picture. Wonderful gamer. Not great for sports.. But again, WAY sharper overall than a plasma.
TCL37S1

Panasonic has the BEST telephone support EVER. They will sit on the phone with you for an hour and tell you anything you want to know. They have all their products there at the call center so they can turn it on and find out if they don't know. They also have FREE next day IN HOME support on 37" and larger TV's as part of the standard warranty.

http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audi...2_46_50g10.asp
^
G10 readout. Also keep in mind-- high(er) end Plasmas like this have a tough sheet of glass-- not a cheap crappy one. Wiimote slips will KILL an LCD. You think it won't happen until your friend bangs your LCD and kills it. Been there.


If you have the cash I'd look at SAMSUNG's 6000 series. They start around $1800 USD. The picture makes you want to cry though. IMO you can NOT beat Samsung's 6000/8000 in the $4000 and down market. You want to reach into the screen and touch the picture.


Other things to keep in mind:

POWER CONSUMPTION: About 70-100W for an LED backlit LCD
120-150W for a CCFL LCD
225-300+W for a Plasma

I/O: Do I need RCA audio out? Optical?
Is 3 HDMI's enough? Do I need 4? Etc.

OSD: Is the on screen display crapp? Do I feel I have enough picture control options?

WARRANTY: NO, you do NOT want the store's extended warranty. Go home, call Panasonic/Samsung and tell them you want to register and purchase the OEM extended warranty. It's always better and rarely more expensive.


Voodoo Rufus hasn't been around for awhile.

Probably in his PJ's in a puddle of druel staring at his G10 .
It's a really really good TV.

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Last edited by Theocnoob; 12-24-09 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 12-24-09, 06:21 PM   #20
Xtreme Barton
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thanks for the info .. you should do a write up .. i think it would end up being pretty sticky


price hmm thats a tricky one ..


what i had in mind and what i may need to re-consider is probably a different brackets now .. i was looking at a lcd 32" and a plasma 42" .. the 32 would be for my pc and 42 for the living room . .

my other thought was to just get maybe something in the 50 + inch range .. just 1 ..

stuck on whether id be happier for gaming on a huge display or would 32 be plenty ....

price id like to keep somewhere in the 1500 range if possible (that way i can build a new pc too )

Last edited by Xtreme Barton; 12-24-09 at 06:51 PM.
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